What is Armor?

[Megan]

Is the Armor stat a flat reduction or a percentage reduction, or something else entirely? I'd like to adjust my team's tokens, but I need more information.

Some more transparency regarding the exact values of the to-hit calculation, and the effects of "crit" and "glanced" on listed damage would be nice as well.

[Mashee]

"What is love armor?? Baby don't hurt me...don't hurt me...no more.."

Who knew he was singing about game mechanics?

[Megan]

No offense, but I didn't ask this question just for a joke. I'd like an actual answer from someone.

[Alby]

I don't know the numbers.

[Megan]

"Unfortunately, while all answers are replies, not all replies are answers."
- Babylon 5, Point of No Return

[Mashee]

Aw don't be so grumpy. Full specs have not been revealed. If they were, people are going to argue with the base-percentages, the random variance, and the algorithm in general. Most games obscure these numbers. Player wants to know, but doesn't need to know. There's no way you're gonna accept the numbers they give you given your reactions to the unique items so far.

Wartile post:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/404200/discussions/0/2119355556476946040/#c2119355556481304825

Originally posted by Wartile:

Also the core attack system will be slightly changed, with the intention to avoid situations with two high defensive units blocking each other forever.

I just watch my characters closely and adjust their stats purely on a heuristic observation.

[Megan]

I've done those searches. I've read everything available and it's not sufficient. I want specifics.

What games obscure the basic to-hit formula? Don't most try to give you at least an overview of your chance to hit a level-appropriate monster? Both Diablo 2 and Grim Dawn do. (Of course in D2 it was called the LCS, or Lying Character Screen, but that's a different story; it wasn't intentionally inaccurate.) Also, if you're going to make a minis game, you should expect your players to want all the numbers. Wargamers are infamous for this.

"Need to know?" Well, I suppose if you put it like that, no, I don't. I've already beaten the hardest available content. (Though not the most annoying content.) I guess there's no need for me to ever start up the game again, either, at least not until more content comes out.

I mean, I'd like to fiddle with tokens and equipment, and try different class combinations on different maps, because it's fun, but there's no need to do that. If that's going to be our standard going forward.

Why do you imagine I wouldn't "accept" the devs' numbers? I don't think I've expressed any dissatisfaction with the hit rate or damage dealt, in any direction. In fact, I'm not dissatisfied with any of that. It feels about right to me.

As for the unique items, last I saw, you agreed with me on their overall uselessness. So, not sure where that salt taunt is coming from.

[Mashee]

Virtually every game hides the mechanics. At best, the raw algorithm is ripped from code in the larger games and ends up on a wiki page from an unofficial source.

Your character has a base chance to hit of 95% (ludicrously high).
Your enemy has a base defense skill of 85% to block (ludicrously high).

These numbers are revealed to the player much of the time, in many games. The way these numbers are handled when smashed against each other with a dash of RND is NOT, if EVER explained to the player. (rare exceptions).

No, it's not .95 to see if it hits, then .85 to block afterwards...or anything so simple. Only pen/paper games would have such simplicity.

Perhaps I just read the tone incorrectly elsewhere.

[Wartile]

Armor is a flat reduction from damage from attacks. Damage from cards and abilities are not affected by armor.

Glance is 50% damage. And crit is 150% damage.

Defense/Attack skill is a little more complicated and we're hoping to simplify this in the future.

In general terms, attack and defense skill are comparative stats, meaning the outcome is based on the difference between the attacker and defender. The stat is capped at half/double, meaning if you double the opponent's skill in either, you no longer gain benefit from getting more of that stat.

To give you a quick idea of the algorithm:

At double attack skill the chances are: 10%, 10%, 70%, 10% (miss/glance/hit/crit)

At equal attack/defense skill: 25%, 25%, 45%, 5% (miss/glance/hit/crit)

At double defense skill: 40%, 40%, 20%, 0% (miss/glance/hit/crit)

Note that specific states such as Shield Wall and Grinding Stone mess with the system to force specific outcomes (100% hit and high critical hit chance of grinding stone for example).Feel free to give your feedback on what you'd like to see changed.

One thing we're personally not too happy about is the lack of feedback of the system during combat and the rather oblique effect of flanking and high ground. One thing we've discussed is reducing the compared value to 5 static states (say: 1. heavily disadvantaged, 2. disadvantaged, 3. equal footing, 4. advantage, 5. heavily advantaged), each with defined miss/glance/hit/crit values as above. And then have flanking/high ground to move up/down on these states, instead of adding invisible numbers in the calculation.

[Mashee]

Originally posted by Wartile:

One thing we're personally not too happy about is the lack of feedback of the system during combat and the rather oblique effect of flanking and high ground.

Players can only currently use human heuristic observation in realtime of iconified representations of health going down with no combat log. If we saw damage numbers float up above figurines as they take hits and were able to browse a combat log then this feedback would have been fast and furious.

...but a combat log is an inhouse testing feature. Floating numbers might satisfy some players and offer a means of feedback, but they can be unweildy in some games. A toggle on/off usually sorts that out.

It was my assumption you were already using static states. If you're using a linear calculation based on tile heights respective to eachother then that can only be seen as superior, not something that needs to be simplified. Personally I don't have a preference, as long as it's logical and consistent.

You risk exposing calculation and logic errors at this stage if more combat data is revealed. The bugs log is really fuuuuullllll at the moment.

Originally posted by Wartile:

Damage from cards and abilities are not affected by armor.

Volley needs to be modified by armor. It is not a flat-rate damage spell like the others.

[Megan]

Thank you! That's very illuminating. I'll do some tests with different token setups later today and see if my performance improves.

I haven't used Shield Wall too much because of the comparative advantage of a reliable Taunt, especially in later levels, when my more fragile units can easily be killed if a hard-hitting enemy slips past my tank. Also, one of the (very) few unique items I use, Jotnar's Shard, only triggers if the tank is attacking.

I used to save up my Grinding Stones, but after going through the lightning map several times I realized it didn't make all that much difference in the long run. It's a nice bonus, but now I just use them as soon as I get them. I wouldn't suggest any change here though; it would be too powerful on the archer if it were any better, and while you could exclude the archer that would just get finicky.

A different system for flanking/high ground might be interesting. I do take care to get my units to at least level positions, especially with the last group in the monastery, with those two guys with big two-handed swords, but I haven't noticed it crippling my units when I couldn't (usually happens on the forest map). Guess it depends on how much emphasis you want to put on it - I'd rank high ground's importance to me at about 20% right now; flanking, when I can, at about 30%.

Relative positioning, keeping my fragile units out of harm's way, and making sure the focus is on the tank is always my first priority. Flanking considerations come second, then high ground. If you'd like that order switched up, then yeah, some changes might be necessary.

[Megan]

Originally posted by Mashee:

Volley needs to be modified by armor. It is not a flat-rate damage spell like the others.

Isn't it already? The card affects the archer's fire rate; it doesn't do damage by itself. I'm pretty sure I've seen enemies deflecting the occasional Volley shot.

[Alby]

The 5 static stats are used in many other TT games, like Warhammer. I mean, they work, but this system works as well, imo.

[Mashee]

Originally posted by Megan:

Isn't it already? The card affects the archer's fire rate; it doesn't do damage by itself. I'm pretty sure I've seen enemies deflecting the occasional Volley shot.

I was responding to his actual words used. They were universal and literal to all cards played. I assumed the same as you though.

[Megan]

I took that to mean cards which do direct damage themselves, like Forceful Attack and Rain of Arrows. (Well, theoretically. I mean who takes Rain of Arrows?)

Edit: just checked. In the same Volley, I had one arrow deflected and the next one glanced. If it's affected by Defense, that's a pretty good indication it's affected by Armor too.