So, why isn't it turn based?

[Alien]

I received a beta key today, and I was rather excited to finally be able to play this beautiful game.
However, I thought that, despite being roughly real time, I would have enough time during battles to make my moves etc. But instead of that, it's a misclick festival, and I have to spam my moves hoping they won't be prevented. There are way too many moves to do, it's like my little Vikings are hyperactive acrobats. Many times I don't even drop my men on the tile I wanted to put them, and I can't even use the right angle of my camera because I need to micromanage my troops. I understand that real life fighting involves movement - but it also doesn't involve health bars, which means that once you did the good move, chances are high that your enemy is down.

Now, it wouldn't be as bad if the game was turn-based, or if there were distinct phases for combat and movement, and something that limits movement (zones of control, attacks of opportunity, or a fatigue system...). It's not really fun when the best tactician isn't really the one who makes the best moves, but simply the one that makes the fastest moves in any directions while roughly trying to go behind the enemies.

I don't really understand why it's not turn-based anyway. This game was clearly inspired by wargames, there are tiles and even movement points, and it seems like it would be more enjoyable if it were at least pausable. It's like my tactical game units are lost in a real time action RPG and I don't get why this design choice was made. Could someone explain the benefits of the current combat system?

[Wartile]

First thanks for your feedback

We are sorry to hear that you felt it being hectic and frustrating that figurines did not land on the intended tiles. We agree that we still have a few iterations to do to smooth out the navigation of the figurines and the right phase of the cool-down and when it should trigger and when not.
Our goal is, to give you the player the experience of playing with figurines in a miniature world coming to life. We wanted to make it turn based, just without the turns, where you constantly must wait for the opponent to make a move.

In Wartile we made a real-time system with a mix of turn based elements in trying to create a smooth flow between movement and combat, a beat or rhythm where the cool-down allows you to breathe and gives your enemy a window of opportunity. The way you use your Figurine abilities and godly/Tactical cards is also crucial in order to control the battle board and the enemy movement

Here is a game where you’re are playing with your live figurines across the battle board and they will deal with everything you put in front of them, it’s a digital board game coming to life.

Again, thanks for your feedback. Navigation and timing of the cool-down is on our priority.

[Alien]

Thanks for the answers!

Yeah I think I would appreciate longer cool downs between moves, between attacks and maybe stronger hits (I mean, thse axes are no joke). Maybe even just an option to slow down the game would do it, so that very good players could still play at a faster pace.

[ledeir]

Definitely having some trouble with the "real time" aspect of it. It might be my rig's specs, but the controls aren't responsive enough for me to effectively move my units.
Plus there were times when they weren't attacking for any obvious reason.

[EaluScynscapa]

Same issue. I get the idea behind wanting to have a more dynamic combat experience, but the reality is that in its current implementation it just doesn't work. It simply is not fun and goes against the current strength of the game - its visual style. You don't have time to plan your actions, you don't have time to obeserve (and enjoy) your units fighting.

Add a turn-based mode and the game will be a hit.

As a developer myself, I understand the desire to be innovative and the attachment to ideas that you believe in. However, you have to be able to step back and look at what works and what doesn't. Your choice of visual style (tabletop feel, unit design, etc.) is a definite hit and it is what attracts players. The combat approach, unfortunately, is not.

[geras]

Originally posted by AlienSpectator:

However, I thought that, despite being roughly real time, I would have enough time during battles to make my moves etc. But instead of that, it's a misclick festival, and I have to spam my moves hoping they won't be prevented.

Now, it wouldn't be as bad if the game was turn-based, or if there were distinct phases for combat and movement, and something that limits movement (zones of control, attacks of opportunity, or a fatigue system...). It's not really fun when the best tactician isn't really the one who makes the best moves, but simply the one that makes the fastest moves in any directions while roughly trying to go behind the enemies.

I liked the game very much so far, but I couldn't agree more about this.

There is simply not time to admire your lovely art style in all this clicking and moving units. It comes down to "Oh no, there's a dude at my back, I need to move wherever" and a second later "Oh now, now he's behind my other dude, quick I must move away" or "Now! There's a flanking spot, quick!" But you are not fast enough to move your guy before the AI takes that place. Repeat that every second or two.

[Wartile]

Hi guys

The constant position changes of the enemy and the fact that they reset your cool-down is a flagged issue and is something we will look at from tomorrow. You guys are right that it sometimes trigger confusion, bordering to panic when many figurines are fighting at the same time.

It would help making the overall phase of the game a bit slower and predictable, opening for more time to make tactical decisions both regarding, combat positions and the use of ability cards.

Improved communication and controls for using cards also seem to be a issue that we should focus on, and we will add this also as a priority.

Thanks for all your feedback, its very helpful for us to hear about your game experiences, both the compliments and the beatings :)

[geras]

It's great to know that those issuesare being worked on, thanks!

[Borys]

I haven't played much so far, as I was focusing on making video documenting my very first experience with game, but I already noticed what was mentioned above when playing second "quest" (the one against undead with 3 boats to destroy).

I can see the concept of mixing table-top figurine game with real-time, but for now I have no idea how it can be achieved xD.

For sure the cool down MUST be extended. I mean it should take longer before the figurine is ready to move. Thanks to that player will be able to think about next moves more efficiently.
Secondly, can you tell us how the timing of attacks is determined? Or what is a conjunction between cooldown of attack and of movement? It looks a little bit like there is one cooldown (presented by this thin circle on basis) and if the figurine is not moved, it will attack, but if during attack, it cannot be moved.

[meshuggah12345]

I submitted some feedback, but I will also add it here, to see what other people think. I would like to see a slightly less casual game come out of this title. By that, I mean the ability to see more detailed stats and percentages. Also the addition of damage numbers when in combat, or a combat log would be great as well.

I also had some issues moving the figurines around and getting them to set down on the tile I wanted it to. I see that you are already working on that. Will there be an addition of an ingame cursor as well? For me the single-player aspect of this game is its strong point so having good AI is a must. So far I haven't run into any serious issues, but when surrounded my spearman didn't seem to want to decide who to attack.

I will add more as I play some more, but these are the first few things that came to mind when playing so I figured i would add them before forgetting. Thanks for letting me participate in the closed alpha!

[Alien]

@meshuggah12345 :
I'm not too sure about the ability to see detailed stats and damages during combat. As it is now, combat is rather immersive, and you need to be attentive to see if a fight is going well or not, and experienced to predict how you could change the odds.
With damage numbers and detailed stats, it would become easier to determine the best approach to combat - in fact I think it would make it more casual. I like how it's not an exact science, but you can still know what's going on.
It provides a feeling like if you're not really one of those omniscient tacticians you can see in other games, but rather the leader of a little troop of adventurers. You don't know exactly what they're able to do, you must do with whatever you happen to have... When there's a bowman shooting at you you need to think quick, not only because of the combat system (so it's a bit too quick currently), but also because you don't know precisely how many arrows your guys are able to take.

I think it's important to find a balance between the current fast real time and a too reflexive turn based system, and between optimization and immersion, because those are things that I wouldn't like to lose in this game.

[Borys]

In reference to what meshuggah wrote, personally, I would prefer the game to be more casual. On the other hand, what AlienSpectator said I think might be right. Visible stats could make the game more casual as it would be easier to determine the result of fight etc. But... I don't know really xD There are some factors difficult to says which would make it more or less casual.

But regardless of that, personally I am much against stats being visible. Damage amounts and other stats floating or popping up is something I really hate about most of games available nowadays. In my opinioin, this is something that will ruin the spirit of the game, especially it's athmosphere which I think is quite unique, and which is surely what I really like about this game. Anyway - this is just my opinion

[Borys]

Real-time VS Turn-based
-----------------------

I was thinking about settlement of real-time and turn-based elements that is being discussed above.

I think I get the idea the developers are lead by, which I would say I am adored with.
The main problem is how to reconcile real-time battle with hexiled movement that comes from turn-based games OR how to have a turn-based tactical game without waiting for opponent to make decision on what to do. The other aspect that I guess authors wish to have implemented, is having a fun with "toys" being "alive" ;-)

AlienSpectator have described related issue very well. In addition to that, I have a noticed some sort of a "gap" that takes place if you pick up a figurine... and hold it! What happens then? Nothing. The figurine "disappears" and is irrelevant to the game and nothing can be done against it. Moreover, if you are desparate, you can "hold it" as long as it fits you, just waiting for better circumstances to put it back. When playing against other player, some limitations may be applied, but what kind? When playing against AI, the enemies start to behave like there is no opponent to care about and start to withdraw. Have recorded such situation (37:40):
https://youtu.be/BcxlBV2wo4Q?t=37m40s

In my humble opinon, there has to be some compromise achieved (hmm... yeah, it's obvious xD). I wish to present my two propositions.


#1 - Turn-based movement + Real-time fighting |
Adjacent units are fighting constantly and meanwhile, each unit's movement is on cooldown.
When figurine's movement cooldown ends, the game pauses; player must then decide on how to move the figurine. When the movement is done, the fighting is resumed until another figurine is ready to move.
While waiting for movement cooldown to end, cards can be played or in regards to units standing adjacent to mutiple enemies - select which to attack.

#2 - Semi-interactive pause
When unit's movement cooldown is ended (so the unit is ready to move), player may pick it up; the game pauses then until the figurine is put back; when unit is picked, player cannot do anything else (as he/she is holding figurine). Disadvantage of it is that it gives "active" player extra time to think about other moves he/she would like to take next, same as opponent, BUT although the battle (game) is paused, enemy can still play cards or select targets for fighting figurines.
To make holding for too long more unpleasant, inactive player may be granted extra godly points (those you spend to play cards); let's say, every each 3 seconds you hold the figurine, enemy gets extra point. Therefore, the "active" should think fast ;-).
Still, there can be added some limitation like "you have 5 second to put the unit down or it will be put back on the same tile".

These are just my humble, personal examples of compromise that needs to be implemented; othewrwise, the gameplay will be a chaos.

Regardless of it, as other mentioned before - cooldowns need to be extended.

PS: Please accept my apology for being annoying if anybody finds me this way ^.^'

[Nina Williams]

What the heck? Why game not turn-based?
Erased from my wishlist.

[Luke]

I was going to get this because turn based tactical. I am concerned by what I read.

[jacob4408]

Ditto. Turn based (or at minimum user controllable pace and pause) are a requirement for purchase. I like Borys suggestion #1 above. The game looks amazing but gameplay trumps graphics.