Baron's Coronation flavourful but slightly disappointing

[melting_wax]

Coronation costs 600g and you need to be with the Baron at the King's Castle.

Effectspoiler:

Your Baron is turned into king and gets:

- a slow influx of units, while he remains at King's Castle. These are mostly Tower Guards, which is good. But the influx is very slow. It takes very long to get your investment back. (In the game I played I got the Coronation early mid-game and got my money back when the late game was nearly over on a large map). The info says you'll get units even slower, while being at another castle, so your king is immobile, if you want to get as many units as possible.

- a new ability: you can build castles from farms for g. This is a nice and flavourful ability, but it isn't worth the 600g ;-)

So atm Coronation is strategically weak, which is somewhat sad and I hope it gets buffed in a later patch.

[gazomierz]

While I agree with most of what you said the baron is one of the last classes I would consider buff for. He is already buffed tremendously in comaparison to CoE3. Swift justice, ability to upgrade hamlets and addition of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of mages to his roster is quite enough power for the baron I would say. Coronation is mostly for flavor and I would treat it as an icing on the baron cake.

[melting_wax]

I haven't played the other classes so far, but in CoE3 the Baron probably was the strongest class. He has been nerfed in CoE4, because huge stacks of Crossbows nearly aren't as effective anymore, but he still seems very strong. I would still like coronation to be more meaningful.

I won't comment on balance before I played the other classes and played some MP ;-).

[gazomierz]

I definietly wouldn't call him nerfed, no way. He's been buffed in a lot of ways I mentioned. The changes to combat mechanics affect all races, baron wasn't only one to benefit from massing ranged troops. What about poor hoburgs? They were hit by those changes much harder than baron imho. I demand justice for the little folk! ;)

[Aquillion]

Originally posted by gazomierz:

I definietly wouldn't call him nerfed, no way. He's been buffed in a lot of ways I mentioned. The changes to combat mechanics affect all races, baron wasn't only one to benefit from massing ranged troops. What about poor hoburgs? They were hit by those changes much harder than baron imho. I demand justice for the little folk! ;)

Hoburgs have big late-game creatures they can throw down, though (as do most other classes). The Baron doesn't have anything; masses of crossbows were his entire late-game strategy.

[Steelpoint]

The problem with Baron is that he lacks any real good late game units, his only edge is the Coronation which is highly dependant on him being in the correct age and being in a position to storm and take the Captial, and the benefits are not great.

As a Baron your really trying to end the game during the mid game, end game factions can roll over a Baron.

[melting_wax]

Lol, I agree. The poor Burgmeister is probably searching for a time portal right now to get back to those happy days. Why are the slingers only throwing with pebble btw ;-)?

I disagree on swift justice and upgrading hamlets. Flagging bandit lairs was annoying but not a big deal, especially for the Baron, who usually had more stacks running around anyway. And 25g in the early game is significant. The upgraded hamlets pay for themselves after about 4 years, which isn't that good and the defence is nice but not game-changing either.

Both of those are nice tactical options, but their effect isn't huge imo. I mostly ignored Swift Justice in the 2 games I played so far and didn't have problems with bandits. I upgraded hamlets, but I didn't feel it had much impact. I still like those 2 options though.

[gazomierz]

But he has a lot of very strong chaff for free, great map control, lots and lots of cheap supporting casters, not to mention all the gold he can spend on very good choice of troops. He's not about big scary units, granted, but he seems just fine without them :) And like I said, the combat mechanics changed for everybody.

Edit:
Swift justice is very good imho. You don't have to use it instantly if you find brigand lair, but 25g is really nothing in this game past the first year or two. I feel upgraded hamlets are also good. While I agree they're not gamechanging they can help a lot and add a huge amount of map control. Both of those also add a lot of synergy with other classes if you'll be playing multi or with ai allies.

[melting_wax]

Originally posted by Steelpoint:

The problem with Baron is that he lacks any real good late game units, his only edge is the Coronation which is highly dependant on him being in the correct age and being in a position to storm and take the Captial, and the benefits are not great.

As a Baron your really trying to end the game during the mid game, end game factions can roll over a Baron.

You can also play ressource denial, but you need to come strong from the midgame (which you really have to as the Baron). Your midsized stacks are still competitive, so you can win by mapcontrol and clever avoidance of your enemy's stack of doom.

[niddhoger]

You are overlooking a huge bonus from upgraded hamlets-conscription. A hamlet gives 1 knight per year whileva motte-and-bailey gives a knight and 2 additional spearmen. While this isn't much, the spears are worth 10g each. Thus, the upgrade is +32g a year for 50g down payment. This ignores the fact that the MnB counts as a fortified location AND gets a larger levy recruitment. With that added barricade+fortifications for your (extra) slingers, your investment protects itself from Indies. Several armies that would run over your hamlet levies will break on your MnB.

You also drain swamps for farms. At 25g you still gain +2 spearmen conscripts and +1g per turn, so on paper it pays off much quicker. You also turn the 3 AP swamp tile into a 1 AP grassland, so it helps when moving armies.

Add in the alchemists +2g/turn (+5 when upgraded for 75g at magic library!), the Baron is all about investment. You spend the first few years building a huge economy, then quickly wreck your neighbour when conscripts pop. You know what you are getting, so the other turns are spent filling in the gaps (buying longbows and/or pikes mostly)

Yes, you lack late game power, but you should have the strongest economy and the ability to field large armies-several at that. You aggressively expad so that when you meet that warlock, your "expeditionary" force can give them a run for their money. Then you send 3 more just as big after them. Fan out and wreck their economy. Even late game, you still can win through attrition and sacking their citdaels with your multiple 100 strong armies and (locally recruited) trebuchets. Earlier someone dismissed Baron as a niche suege-army... But you DO remember a faction with no citadels immediately loses, yes? I may have no hope of fighting your 7 demon-lord led army in the field, but as you chase my cavalry armies around my trebs will shred your bases.

Tier 2 court mages gain some aoe damage spells as well. They also gain flame ward. While fighting a fire heavy army, having several of these cast fire res+flame ward whie my master alchs cast regen, fire res, and +armor/physical resistance spells helps close the gap. Baron has most definitely gained a huge buff in CoE 4. You still want to end the game early, but you are not -as- screwed in the later years

[melting_wax]

Hmm, I haven't tested this. I'll check it next time I play Baron. Great analysis overall!

I still think that Baron overall hasn't been buffed, because his stacks are way less effective than in CoE3, where a 200+ Crossbow stack with 1 or 2 mages was extremly hard to beat in mid to early late game (if you had no Battlefied Spells) and Baron got those huge numbers very quickly. Maybe we could agree on that Baron's mid game has been nerfed a little, while his late game has been buffed?

Edit: I beat a 400 units ranged stack with trolls. This wouldn't have been possible in CoE3 at all. This is an example of the nerfed Baron army.

[niddhoger]

That's just it, though, EVERYONE has been hit by the stack nerf. A Baron can field 6 full ranks of units that attack every turn!

1st rank Cavalry/knights/halbreds/etc
2nd rank Pikes. This means you have 2 melee ranks ganging up on your enemies 1st.
3rd rank (optional) tower guards. They will stand in front of your ranged, while still firing their own crossbows. They have armor+shield and a decent melee attack. Think of them as trample defense or as a longbow-buffer that still damages through your first two ranks
4th-6th ranks as longbows with their added range, your 6th rank gets to fire from the start.
7th rank of casters likely casting just buffs to protect your troops

So while most factions get just 1 melee rank dealing damage and at most 4 Archer ranks, you get 6 full ranks dealing damage every turn. Particularly with tower guards, you gain 3 melee ranks to buffer your back three Archer ranks... While every rank is dealing damage. Everything (including longbows) have at least 1 armor, if not 1 armor+ shields. Your nat up national mages are then mostly on defense. They throw out resistance spells against casters, or the regen+armor spells from alchs. As your line buckles, your tier 2 court mages will begin tossing out aoe damage.

If that still fails, your massive economy from all the upgraded sites, alchemists, and free conscripts means you are fielding several of these armies. Dance around their doom stack and use highlord led cavalrymen+unicorn rider armies to quickly conquer/reflag key territories while you hurl large armies at them and shred citadels with Trebs.

Another point is to never strand a large army just upgrading hamlets. 3 hamlets upgraded+raising levies is 21 AP (7 turns!) Not counting movement costs. That's time you sent aggressively expanding and time that demonologists is getting closer to Demon Lords. Use a lone/lightly guarded high lord to do that, or leave him/the Baron behind while your alchemist/friar/indie mage keeps pushing the army forward. As mentioned, aggressive expansion is a must for you. You have to end the game early or enter endgame with an economy that dwarfs all others-its your strength, and you either leverage it hard or die.

[melting_wax]

While I agree with most what you say, I still don't see how Baron's expansion has been buffed. As you say you need to come strong into the late game and this aspect of Baron isn't buffed at all. He expands at about the same speed. But in CoE3 you arrived in late game with stacks that were on par with most stacks of other classes, because bigger number had a huge effect on the outcome of the battle and this aspect has been nerfed greatly. Of the classes I played so far the Illusionist's, Witch's and Troll King's late game armies are far superior to the Baron's and this wasn't the case in CoE, where the Baron had a higher chance to win an early late game decisive battle with mass Crossbows.

It is true that your economic advantage has been strengthened slightly and the Baron's troops are generelly more useful, but I feel this is outweighed by generally less competitive armies against summoners.

Edit: The Baron's ability to win by map control is still very convincing, so this hasn't changed at all.

[niddhoger]

Again, you have 6 ranks with no fat. 3 buffer ranks of "melee" that are all contributing from the first round (instead of an extra one-two melee ranks just waiting on the first to die) couped with an extra ranged rank. Everything has armor, and you have 3 or more of these armies roaming the map. You can't field 10 ranks of crossbows effectively in one battle, but you still have an extra 2-3 ranks of ranged per fight, and these large armies are effectively disposable. Since you can field these 6 rank all ranged armies earlier, you probably do expand faster now. Idk though, I found Baron to be an extremely weak and one-dimensional class in CoE3, so never played them much. With the terrain upgrades and national mages combined with the ability to flag/conscripts from Ancient Forests, they are now among my favorite classes in CoE4. So, I'm a bit unfamiliar with their changed expansion speed. : / I can't imagine you'd have 200 strong crossbows armies very early, yet alone several of them. With the army changes, at least Baron enters mid game with an expansion bonus. Early game you can also expand with pike armies to help buffer your growing archer-stack.

I'm not saying late game is easy, but its far from a one-sided shoot-out. This also henges on proper mage support. Being in the 7th rank means you utilize defensive buffs to level the playing field. You can also gain poison-immune unicorn riders from Ancient Forests. They have higher MR, fast heal (clears afflictions), and an additional melee attack from the unicorn horn. I like to save them up for high-lord led armies and risk them sparingly, they become a crucial front line fighting witches, druids, and trolls.

I'd say you are most screwed by a competent necromancer. Your limited offensive magic makes you extremely vulnerable to demiliches. Your large armies then become HIS large armies. You also lack a counter to decay outside of limited regeneration casts, even then he can counter-counter with disease. High Cultist and air warlocks also have magic you can't easily counter, but all 3 of these classes are OP anyway.

[♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔]

I actually enjoy the fact that game has these lore centric things that are not strictly utilitarian.

There's barely any games anymore that remember that not everything needs to be mechanically important.

[carn112004]

If i remember correctly, the greatest buff of baron is in conscription:

COE3:
1 spear per farm
1 knight per village

COE4:
2 spear per farm
1 knight per hamlet
1 knight + 2 spear per village and per upgraded hamlet
1 unicorn knight per ancient forest
2 hoburg soldiers per hoburg village
2 tribal warriors (=spearman) per tribal village
2 spear per barbarian huts (at least i think)

agreed that his armies are less powerful individually, but he can field lots of armies

What is the spawning speed of a crowned baron in kings castle?