Usefullness/effectiveness of different demonologist summon rituals

[carn112004]

As i am currently try to mod a bit about demonologist, i would like to have some input/discussion about the various summon rituals.

My view so far:

-regarding spending (except for something risky and/or summoning to kill for items):

summon imp should be done at 10 sacrifice, cause several possible results (imp familiar, shadow imp, harlequin) are always controlled at that price and therefore if the sometimes loss of movement points can be afforded, 10 is more efficient than 15;

ALL other rituals should spend maximum amount possible, as already summon demon at 20 resulted in 22 fails out of 74 tries; as spending 30 is autosuccess (or very close) that means one has with these numbers the choice of either trying 74 times for 20 gaining 52 demons or spend 30 about 49 times gaining 49; thats obvious as gaining 3 demons for losing movement points 22 times and having to kill 22 demons is not a good deal;

all higher summons have less success chance and are potentially more nasty on failure (e.g. already greater demon failure might cause hit by one area 5 wither or area 25 disease spell; failure demon horde, lieutnant and demon lord of course even worse, so maximum spending even more optimal compared to spending less)

- regarding effectiveness:

imp summoning is so-so, gaining a lev 1 caster for 10 sacr is not horrible and the other results are ok for the price

demon summoning is at most only slightly better than imp summoning as 30 has to be spend and on average one would get 2.5 or so successes of imp summoning for same price, which is just a choice between weaker and more or stronger and fewer units (e.g. imp spellcasting probably in sum more powerful than demon spellcasting for same price, but demon better for meatshield; OTOH imps also gain some scouts)


ALL level 2 much better than level 1, if full spending is used and the force is large enough to minimize risk of failure (e.g. enough ranged power and fast fliers to kill a disease demon before he has a lot of attempts to get nasty)

greater demon summoning much better defensive and offensive meat shields for same price in form of hell hounds; and semi-lev caster, which can have rather good spells and can also face melee

demon horde all solid for the money, although bloodsworns are slow

demon lieutnants are double level 2 casters or semi level 3 with high hp and so on, so a good deal for 180


demon lord is a trap or at least only a fun option, cause the success probability is compared to costs and effectiveness too low; namely getting 1 demon lord is about 1500 sacr, which instead would yield 6-7 demon lieutnants, which have more hp AND more spell casting between them; also demon lords are likely to launch lev 3 spells even if facing a decent amount of fast melees and ranged attackers; AND if you get one, it might have injuries from prior failure and being killed; only exception are trying to gain lord of greed vs human heavy foes and lord of death for hand rituals and raise dead; but its probably not cost efficient to spend the 3000 or so one on average has to spend to get one of those two;


So in sum, early one uses imp or demon, whatever is available and in long run goes for one of the lev 2 summons; upgrading to lev 3 is not done, except maybe if conquering hell is somehow desired.

[Xelos]

I agree, demonologist RNG is too heavy handed even when spending the maximum. Perhaps a success chance bar would be helpful to lessen the uncertainty.

[Orpheus]

Originally posted by carn112004:

upgrading to lev 3 is not done, except maybe if conquering hell is somehow desired.

I have to disagree with this. Upgrade your Demonologist to level 3, not for the rituals but for the combat spells. Infernal magic is one of the most powerful offensive spell disciplines in the game, and a L3 Demonologist with the right spells is among the most destructive non-summoned casters in the game (along with the Old Wizard, L3 Fire Warlock, and L3 necromancers if they focus on lethal spells). Mine, with a Bloodstone Amulet, Wraith Crown and no troops accompanying him, has to date wiped out four large enemy armies by himself, and has just single-handedly taken my Witch enemy out of the game. You're right that the L3 rituals aren't all that great, but the guy's a monster in combat!

Also, if you're modding the Demonologist, I have a suggestion/request. In mythology, the point of demonology is generally to bargain with the Devil for either power or riches. How about a ritual summoning a creature which cannot be controlled, kills itself instantly when you fight it, and always has a random magic item? So in effect you're buying an item in exchange for human souls. There could also be a version that gives a large amount of gold when you kill it (selling souls for cash).

[carn112004]

Originally posted by Orpheus:

I have to disagree with this. Upgrade your Demonologist to level 3, not for the rituals but for the combat spells. Infernal magic is one of the most powerful offensive spell disciplines in the game, and a L3 Demonologist with the right spells is among the most destructive non-summoned casters in the game (along with the Old Wizard, L3 Fire Warlock, and L3 necromancers if they focus on lethal spells).

Thats 480 or about 2 lieutnants instead. Greater Devils are also L3 infernal magic, but know only 1 spell.

Originally posted by Orpheus:

Mine, with a Bloodstone Amulet, Wraith Crown and no troops accompanying him, has to date wiped out four large enemy armies by himself, and has just single-handedly taken my Witch enemy out of the game. You're right that the L3 rituals aren't all that great, but the guy's a monster in combat!

Without the items, he would die to quickly.

But with correct items lieutnants could be more deadly, e.g. bloodstone and spirit ring on an ice devil.

Originally posted by Orpheus:

Also, if you're modding the Demonologist, I have a suggestion/request. In mythology, the point of demonology is generally to bargain with the Devil for either power or riches. How about a ritual summoning a creature which cannot be controlled, kills itself instantly when you fight it, and always has a random magic item? So in effect you're buying an item in exchange for human souls. There could also be a version that gives a large amount of gold when you kill it (selling souls for cash).

Both can be done.

About magic items i dislike, that AI is too stupid to use them.