Conquest of Elysium 4

Conquest of Elysium 4

corisai Jan 9, 2018 @ 10:03am
High Cultist newbie player questions
Greetings!

Recently started to play in COE4 as high cultist (I had some experience with Dom4, but SP only and long, long ago) and so far I have several questions :

1) Nearby of my starting citadel is Academy of Higher Magic. I assume it's lvl 3 library with strong magic guards (43 units!), but it's also have one unknown effect in description : "Wall of Torment". What it's?

1a) Is idea to stack some catapults (I don't seem any use to iron as HC) with some high MR monsters like Formless Spawn to attack that academy worth it, or spellcasters that guard it require stronger armies from T2 or even T3 summons?

1b) Is it lucky find? :steamhappy:

1c) I have no worry about packs guarding special locations - they will never leave them, right?

2) I get really lucky and able to stack 3 formless spawns + one pack of stationary coral guardians from Contact Elder Being ritual. Spawns are awesome and allowed me to eat dwarven enemy nearby. So far I have mediocre sacrifices income like ~8 per turn (independant are disturb me with recapture >_<).

I thing it doesn't worthwhile to leave troops as garnison aside from strongholds (I forced to go away from shores, because cities lured me with sacriface income :steamhappy: so no free troops to defend :steamsad:) and better to create second army for single purpose of hunt trash & recapture. Am I right?

2a) And related question - should I keep stacking spawns until have 5-6 of them to use as front line troops or go for T2 rituals? (well, they get 11 hp per cell, no armor but resistance to almost everything + somewhat high MR as I assume, but it's obliviously not best meat shield & shock troop that I able to get, right?)

2b) I assume that after taking down one player - I created enough "life space" for me and should focus on scout & capture every source of income around, avoiding to mess with other players. Right?

3) My general long-term strategy should be rushing for T2 rituals and stack basalt king&queens as battle spellcaster in doomstack? Is horror bombardment by starchild worthwhile efforts?

3a) Seems that I have a lot of end-game powers : necromancer, priest king, voice of el, high priestess, while dryad queen, burgmeister and bakemono are mid-game enemies. Who's most dangerous to me? I assume necro (mindless = no paralyze) and voice of el (think they able to start apocalypce game-ending event). So I'm should focus my efforts on finding and eliminating them, right?

3b) I'm a bit scared by priest king - it's get more sacrifices then I and notable more army (I have enabled view of statistic ingame). How army size is calculated? It's clearly show army real brute force or simply count units regardless of their strength and can inflated by having a lot of weak troops?

4) How many archers is enough to form full line in battlefield? How many for two lines? I think that I should buy archers&crossbowmans from strongholds while form my front line by free troops & ritual summons, as HC don't have worthwhile summonded archers, right?

5) I think cultists are quite good commanders to stack them (paralyze is nice to have around even single-target) so seem that I need stack something like 100 gold and don't waste it without major need. Right?

5a) There no free commanders to me from my coastial cities?

6) Only way to deal with Ancient forest monster spawn for me is to find library, get warlock / pyro and burn them down?

7) Is exploring sea worthwhile? When I died in some test play and used map view I noticed that water have a lot of monster packs - are they guarding something viable to me? (aside from unique things like water plane access that I don't need in mid-game)

7a) Is going on water plane viable in later game? I can get a lot of amphibious units - so theoretically I can do it. Anything worthwhile for HC on it?

Sorry for a lot of questions and a lot of "Am I right?", and for my horribly grammar of non-native english speaker :steammocking: and for everything else including RNG Jesus didn't loved you in last game :steamhappy:

Anyway - thank's for help in advance.
Last edited by corisai; Jan 9, 2018 @ 10:05am
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Showing 1-5 of 5 comments
Althaea Jan 9, 2018 @ 10:41am 
Originally posted by corisai:
Greetings!

Hi!

Originally posted by corisai:
1) Nearby of my starting citadel is Academy of Higher Magic. I assume it's lvl 3 library with strong magic guards (43 units!), but it's also have one unknown effect in description : "Wall of Torment". What it's?

Oooh, a lucky find, though the mages scattered among those units are the real threat. Mages are, it should be noted, even more dangerous in Conquest of Elysium than in Dominions. Academies of Higher Magic are extremely valuable because they are the only way to upgrade generic mages to third level - though this is not quite so important for the High Cultist, of course.

The Wall of Torment, if I recall, is an enchantment that the Demonologist can place on walls. (An Academy of High Magic will always have one randomly selected wall enchantment active.) I don't know the numbers, but it causes some sort of fear effect in approaching units.

Originally posted by corisai:
1a) Is idea to stack some catapults (I don't seem any use to iron as HC) with some high MR monsters like Formless Spawn to attack that academy worth it, or spellcasters that guard it require stronger armies from T2 or even T3 summons?

It depends. Catapults are of course excellent for sieges. The High Cultist does not value the Academy as much as some other classes, but later on mages will probably be the best thing to spend gold on and the Academy will give you more recruitment offers and allow you to upgrade them.

As in Dominions, there are many kinds of magic, though. Lots of them don't care about MR. When you attack you'll want to have a fair amount of firepower of your own to bring to bear, preferably, yes, T2 and T3 summons, so that the human mages can be dispatched of as quickly as possible. Some classes can use assassins for this (assassination attacks target "rear rank" units if those are present, whether or not they are actually at the rear of the army - very handy in this sort of scenario) but your best bet is siege weapons and spammed hydromancy.

Originally posted by corisai:
1b) Is it lucky find? :steamhappy:

Very! Third-level libraries are some of the rarest sites in the game.

Originally posted by corisai:
1c) I have no worry about packs guarding special locations - they will never leave them, right?

It depends. The guards of the academy won't leave. Some units can roam from their homes, though, and anything that defends an Ancient Forest will leave if something burns that forest to cinders. I've once had the misfortune of seeing a random event set an Ancient Forest on fire, leaving a pack of Cockatrices to roam the landscape.

Originally posted by corisai:
I thing it doesn't worthwhile to leave troops as garnison aside from strongholds (I forced to go away from shores, because cities lured me with sacriface income :steamhappy: so no free troops to defend :steamsad:) and better to create second army for single purpose of hunt trash & recapture. Am I right?

Smaller patrolling forces are generally more efficient, yeah. Later on you may want to leave garrisons, especially in locations with walls (such as towns and ports).

Originally posted by corisai:
2a) And related question - should I keep stacking spawns until have 5-6 of them to use as front line troops or go for T2 rituals? (well, they get 11 hp per cell, no armor but resistance to almost everything + somewhat high MR as I assume, but it's obliviously not best meat shield & shock troop that I able to get, right?)

T1 summons are mostly good for getting off the ground. If you're expanding comfortably and can save up to T2 rituals without turtling, T2 rituals are usually a better investment.

Originally posted by corisai:
2b) I assume that after taking down one player - I created enough "life space" for me and should focus on scout & capture every source of income around, avoiding to mess with other players. Right?

To some extent. I don't know what kind of logic the AI uses, but if you don't attack them they'll be a bit less inclined to attack you, in my experience, at least in terms of decisive battles.

Originally posted by corisai:
3) My general long-term strategy should be rushing for T2 rituals and stack basalt king&queens as battle spellcaster in doomstack? Is horror bombardment by starchild worthwhile efforts?

Yes and sometimes, respectively. You don't control the resulting Horrors, of course, but in terms of sacrifices/damage-potential ratio they're unmatched.

On the subject of Doomstacks, note that a lot of Void Magic spells have excellent ranges. Many other spellcasters take a bit longer to start doing their work in larger battles involving 100 or more units, but this is not a problem for the Cultists.

Originally posted by corisai:
3a) Seems that I have a lot of end-game powers : necromancer, priest king, voice of el, high priestess, while dryad queen, burgmeister and bakemono are mid-game enemies. Who's most dangerous to me? I assume necro (mindless = no paralyze) and voice of el (think they able to start apocalypce game-ending event). So I'm should focus my efforts on finding and eliminating them, right?

Pretty much, though I would prioritize the High Priestess first if it's feasible to do so, especially if you see a lot of giants in her armies. Her blood feast rituals degrade settlements. I'm not sure I would call her a late-game power, though I might actually call the Dryad Queen and potentially Burgmeister greater threats in the long term as the Dryad Queen's troops are excellent and have high MR, while the Burgmeister's clockwork units are immune to a lot of your magic, too.

Originally posted by corisai:
3b) I'm a bit scared by priest king - it's get more sacrifices then I and notable more army (I have enabled view of statistic ingame). How army size is calculated? It's clearly show army real brute force or simply count units regardless of their strength and can inflated by having a lot of weak troops?

Unit strength is factored in to some extent, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know if anyone knows the details except maybe Johan.

Originally posted by corisai:
4) How many archers is enough to form full line in battlefield? How many for two lines? I think that I should buy archers&crossbowmans from strongholds while form my front line by free troops & ritual summons, as HC don't have worthwhile summonded archers, right?

Essentially. You have some summonable ranged units but they're not common or reliable, so archers are generally your best investment, or crossbows, if you have the iron. One or two ranks of archers or crossbows should suffice in most cases.

Originally posted by corisai:
5) I think cultists are quite good commanders to stack them (paralyze is nice to have around even single-target) so seem that I need stack something like 100 gold and don't waste it without major need. Right?

It's always good to keep some gold in reserve in case recruitment offers pop up, especially if you have a library. Past the early game I would recommend always having at least 100 gold in the treasury if at all possible.

Originally posted by corisai:
5a) There no free commanders to me from my coastial cities?

Nope.

Originally posted by corisai:
6) Only way to deal with Ancient forest monster spawn for me is to find library, get warlock / pyro and burn them down?

Yep.

Originally posted by corisai:
7) Is exploring sea worthwhile? When I died in some test play and used map view I noticed that water have a lot of monster packs - are they guarding something viable to me? (aside from unique things like water plane access that I don't need in mid-game)

Sometimes. The sea is much sparser than land, but you can sometimes find islands disconnected from the mainland, and also clamfields and whatnot that will give you a bit of gold.

Originally posted by corisai:
7a) Is going on water plane viable in later game? I can get a lot of amphibious units - so theoretically I can do it. Anything worthwhile for HC on it?

It'd probably be more efficient to invest the resources into conquering Elysium outright, but if nothing else it's worth noting that the Priest King probably can't pursue you in there, so in a pinch you might be able to establish a secure base of income on the Elemental Planes.

Also, all Elemental Planes are connected to the Nexus. I won't go into too much detail about them because hey, this game is all about exploration, but if you have access to one Elemental Plane you theoretically have access to all of them. Albeit you probably won't be able to go into the Elemental Plane of Fire, and the Elemental Plane of Earth will probably be mostly solid stone and partially inaccessible.

Originally posted by corisai:
Anyway - thank's for help in advance.

You're welcome.
Last edited by Althaea; Jan 9, 2018 @ 10:46am
corisai Jan 9, 2018 @ 12:01pm 
Originally posted by alguLoD:
T1 summons are mostly good for getting off the ground. If you're expanding comfortably and can save up to T2 rituals without turtling, T2 rituals are usually a better investment.

Few questions about micro commanders&rituals then :

1) It's seems that better to avoid leveling cultist commander up to second ritual levels until I will have library to give them spells I need or economic to build up another summoners (it's much cost-effective to get new rituals on existing high cultist leader then level up new).

So better to place my pretendent somewhere near water (preferably in fortified city/town) and use him only for rituals. Am I right?

2) Seems that it's good idea to have more then one commander in army (for redundancy in case of lose commander in combat). At least someone cheap like basic commander, but better to have spellcaster ofk.

Also - what happen if last commander in army is killed, even when army itself victorious? Or it's simply impossible and lose of last commander here is auto-lose in combat?

At least in dominions surviving troops will remain in province - but what's will happen in COE?

Ask it because recently was very close to lose my pretendent against dwarven ballista. Lucky, lucky that I get mirror armor from some roaming indep mage at neglible cost of two archers ^_^

3) There's no combat scripts for casters and I can't memorise less spells then my maximal allowed amount?

Phew, seems be another reason why libraries are so important (my HC have lesser horror spawn & aoe breath-like paralyze that don't separate friend or foe but very, very unreliable to paralyze even basic spearmen. Both seems are quite meh to use in battles). :steamsad:

Originally posted by alguLoD:
though I might actually call the Dryad Queen and potentially Burgmeister greater threats in the long term as the Dryad Queen's troops are excellent and have high MR, while the Burgmeister's clockwork units are immune to a lot of your magic, too.

>_< I thought only enchanter have access to golems. Important info, thank you.

About dryad queen - I read that herbal classes are a bit OP on larger maps, but my current game is made in Empire era, so I guess dryad quite handicaped in snowballing by low amount of ancient forest :)

Still, I have at least three in my domain >_< Need to get some library and pyro/fire warlock.

Originally posted by alguLoD:
Unit strength is factored in to some extent, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know if anyone knows the details except maybe Johan.

So army raiting is relewant and show real raw armies power? Bad info, even when I get fourth spawn, rating think that Priest King have almost twice army power as I'm.

Originally posted by alguLoD:
One or two ranks of archers or crossbows should suffice in most cases.

You don't understand my question. How many archers I need to feel up one line fully? Or it's depend on amount of front-line combatants so there's no strict numbers?

Originally posted by alguLoD:
Sometimes. The sea is much sparser than land, but you can sometimes find islands disconnected from the mainland, and also clamfields and whatnot that will give you a bit of gold.

Is there's villages in sea? Can I get sacrifices from them? Or only gold/iron resources? Can there be libraries / temples underwater?

Searching for islands with villages+ and shortest way to void is oblivious reasons to go in sea so no need to point on it :steamhappy:

Originally posted by alguLoD:
Albeit you probably won't be able to go into the Elemental Plane of Fire, and the Elemental Plane of Earth will probably be mostly solid stone and partially inaccessible.

Earth is oblivious, I don't have access to digging summons. But fire - why? Because I don't have reliable access to fire magic aside of random generic mages?

Also - what are winning conditions? AI lose by losing all commander or all strongholds? Is it's possible to keep one last citadel of last enemy so he will not "lose" and explore everything (I doubt anyone will able to turn the tables if reduced to single citadel and few farms/villages around after all their glorious doomstacks will be eliminated).

Originally posted by alguLoD:
You're welcome.

Thank you in person too ^_^

UPD.

Necromancer seem to have something like giant flying bat - very fast unit and seem to have stealth. It's unable to flag my villages, right? Because I can swear that seem it bypass through my farm and I still own it.

It's their scout unit? Ignore it vs AI (who seem to be able see through fog of war regardless)?
Last edited by corisai; Jan 9, 2018 @ 12:09pm
Althaea Jan 9, 2018 @ 12:55pm 
Originally posted by corisai:
Few questions about micro commanders&rituals then :

1) It's seems that better to avoid leveling cultist commander up to second ritual levels until I will have library to give them spells I need or economic to build up another summoners (it's much cost-effective to get new rituals on existing high cultist leader then level up new).

So better to place my pretendent somewhere near water (preferably in fortified city/town) and use him only for rituals. Am I right?

It depends. A second-level spellcaster is a second-level spellcaster. It's a risk versus reward thing. A second-level spellcaster can often help an army win tougher battles with fewer casualties both early and later in the game, though of course it depends on what spells they have.

Originally posted by corisai:
2) Seems that it's good idea to have more then one commander in army (for redundancy in case of lose commander in combat). At least someone cheap like basic commander, but better to have spellcaster ofk.

Also - what happen if last commander in army is killed, even when army itself victorious? Or it's simply impossible and lose of last commander here is auto-lose in combat?

At least in dominions surviving troops will remain in province - but what's will happen in COE?

Redundancy is good if you can afford it. If you lose all commanders, all your troops will simply be stuck in place until you send a new commander over to pick them up.

Originally posted by corisai:
3) There's no combat scripts for casters and I can't memorise less spells then my maximal allowed amount?

Precisely. The minimum memorization is there to prevent gaming the system. CoE is a much more RNG-heavy game than Dominions, and a large part of being skilled at CoE comes from understanding how the RNG interacts with the game's mechanics and estimating the margin of error it gives you.

Originally posted by corisai:
Phew, seems be another reason why libraries are so important (my HC have lesser horror spawn & aoe breath-like paralyze that don't separate friend or foe but very, very unreliable to paralyze even basic spearmen. Both seems are quite meh to use in battles). :steamsad:

Of course, learning new spells costs a lot of gold. I'd prefer to save it for new mages most of the time, actually, though there are some extreme cases.

Originally posted by corisai:
>_< I thought only enchanter have access to golems. Important info, thank you.

The Burgmeister doesn't have access to golems right from the start, mind you, they need a Horologist for that. A Horologist may spawn for free for a random event, but otherwise the Burgmeister gets a recruitment offer every now and then. The Burgmeister's clockwork units, unlike the Enchanter's golems, require magical gems (from mines etc.) to create.

Originally posted by corisai:
About dryad queen - I read that herbal classes are a bit OP on larger maps, but my current game is made in Empire era, so I guess dryad quite handicaped in snowballing by low amount of ancient forest :)

To some extent. The power of a herbal or fungal class is less in how plentiful their resources are (because they spend comparatively more resources on their rituals in exchange) and more in how reliable it is. You're almost never going to be lacking for regular forest tiles.

Note that the Dryad Queen - alone among such classes - can bypass the Ancient Forest requirement. As long as there is no Ancient Forest or Sacred Grove within seven tiles, the Dryad Queen can turn a regular forest tile into a Sacred Grove.

Originally posted by corisai:
So army raiting is relewant and show real raw armies power? Bad info, even when I get fourth spawn, rating think that Priest King have almost twice army power as I'm.

Luckily, the AI is often bad at applying that power. Unluckily it's still very dangerous to try and attack them head on.

Originally posted by corisai:
You don't understand my question. How many archers I need to feel up one line fully? Or it's depend on amount of front-line combatants so there's no strict numbers?

Each row on the battlefield is 20 squares tall, so 20 per row.

Originally posted by corisai:
Is there's villages in sea? Can I get sacrifices from them? Or only gold/iron resources? Can there be libraries / temples underwater?

Only gold/iron resources, maybe gems, too, if you're a gem-using class. You may find citadels underwater though quite rarely - these are the gateways to the Water Plane you mentioned previously. You may also find access to the deep seas of Agartha.

Originally posted by corisai:
Earth is oblivious, I don't have access to digging summons. But fire - why? Because I don't have reliable access to fire magic aside of random generic mages?

Because it's made of fire and lava. Units without 100 Fire Resistance tend to die very quickly.

Originally posted by corisai:
Also - what are winning conditions? AI lose by losing all commander or all strongholds? Is it's possible to keep one last citadel of last enemy so he will not "lose" and explore everything (I doubt anyone will able to turn the tables if reduced to single citadel and few farms/villages around after all their glorious doomstacks will be eliminated).

Kill all enemy commanders or all enemy citadels.

If you want to keep the game going past the death of the last enemy so that you can continue to explore, there's the Bystander mod for that. Of course it only works on a new game, so for an old one just try to keep the enemy penned into their citadel. The AI is sometimes dumb enough to kill their last commander off recklessly, though.

Originally posted by corisai:
Necromancer seem to have something like giant flying bat - very fast unit and seem to have stealth. It's unable to flag my villages, right? Because I can swear that seem it bypass through my farm and I still own it.

It's their scout unit? Ignore it vs AI (who seem to be able see through fog of war regardless)?

The Raven Spy is indeed a non-combatant scout unit, which means it can't fight or claim tiles.
Another thing to mention about winning conditions is that there are some events which pop up preventing you from winning till either you deal with the situation or you die trying. I won't spoil what they are but if they occur you ideally want to deal with them as soon as possible or things tend to get very messy.
corisai Jan 11, 2018 @ 10:35am 
Want thank @alguLoD again - his advices plus some crazy rnd luck allowed me to dominate first game easily ^_^

I know that's a "tiny step" against basic unbaffed AI, but it's make me feel well and cured my old trauma how I lose over and over again with weak and seem-to-be-inferior Illythids from other Illwinter game. I wish Rl'yeth were somewhat competitive when I tried Dom4 long-long ago >_<

Really nice game, somewhat fast, somewhat deep. Still - no magic crafting, no treasury (??!!), extremly bad combat AI (I understand that it's pure randomness is feature of game and it's fun... but casting paralyze on castle gates... seriously? >_<).

Heh, with nice graphic COE may became something semi-what popular like Endless Space, because it's share same design idea - quite simplified turn-based game.

Anyway I decided support Illwinter more and bought Dom5. :steamhappy:

Originally posted by Mi.SaSkullduggery:
Another thing to mention about winning conditions is that there are some events which pop up preventing you from winning till either you deal with the situation or you die trying. I won't spoil what they are but if they occur you ideally want to deal with them as soon as possible or things tend to get very messy.

Thank you, but I already searched all possible info and know about three "game-ending" events in COE4. :steamhappy:

My legacy from long time spend in MMORPG power play - always browse any usefull info first. And it's don't ruin experience from my belowed sandbox-style games - so <3
Last edited by corisai; Jan 11, 2018 @ 10:35am
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Date Posted: Jan 9, 2018 @ 10:03am
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