Which of the Warlocks bi-elemental summons are more usefull?

[jirizelenkajun]

Hi, I wanted to ask for peoples opinion of the Mud, Magma, Smoke and Mist warriors plus the yeti. Which of them is more usefull? If situational in which situations?

I've played only two games with the Warlock class and I find myself gravitating more to combination of Mud warriors and Smoke warriors for my primary stack, though that came more from my luck of getting an earth warlock in the begining and then promoting to Air warlock.
I found the yeti quiet "meh" but the combination of Mist and Magma warriors wasn't working half bad.

[Jakalor]

Smoke Warriors best Warriors. Ethereal+Crossbow *and* it does extra magic damage, SIGN ME UP.
Magma Warriors kick ass as well. Large Shield, good HP, good armour, not Slow (unlike most guys with any armour or Large Shield) and a good attack make them a great meatwall.
The Mist Warriors are just worse Smoke Warriors (similar to archers vs crossbows base game conundrum).
Don't have much experience with Mud, but I think actual water summons and Magma Warriors are better places to spend gems. Magma just seems like better in general, since they have armour and a Large Shield.
Yeti are just bad. Like everything about them is bad, their requirement for placement to summon, their stats, the amount you get. All of it is just bad.

[jirizelenkajun]

Originally posted by Jakalor:

Smoke Warriors best Warriors. Ethereal+Crossbow *and* it does extra magic damage, SIGN ME UP.
Magma Warriors kick ass as well. Large Shield, good HP, good armour, not Slow (unlike most guys with any armour or Large Shield) and a good attack make them a great meatwall.
The Mist Warriors are just worse Smoke Warriors (similar to archers vs crossbows base game conundrum).
Don't have much experience with Mud, but I think actual water summons and Magma Warriors are better places to spend gems. Magma just seems like better in general, since they have armour and a Large Shield.
Yeti are just bad. Like everything about them is bad, their requirement for placement to summon, their stats, the amount you get. All of it is just bad.

Hmm, I mostly agree on the Yeti, their only saving grace is their ranged attack which allows to attack from second row, which frankly isn't enough in my opinion. This leaves them usefull only when you are not able to summon anything better. Their HP total forces them into the front to boot, so you can't combine them with better frontline troops to use them as pseudo pikeneers.

I would also agree that Magma warriors come of as better than Mud warriors, though Mud warriors regeneration can be quiet usefull sometimes I think.

When it comes to Smoke warriors versus Mist warriors I would say they end up about equal as the Mist warriors end up doing about the same amount of elemental damage due to them shooting twice as often. Though Smoke warriors will always be much better against high armor units due to their higher physical attack.

Thank you for commenting here. I am happy to read your opinnion :)

[Xelos]

I used the simplearenamod that produces 60 replicates of a battle to do testings. Here are my results for what you could say is a 5v5 bracket/tournament :

Round 1. Mist vs Mud: Mist clean sweep, 5 muds got crushed in every battle 60/60.
Round 2. Magma vs Smoke: Magma clean sweep, 5 Smoke warriors couldn't put enough arrows into magma warriors before they closed the gap and chopped them. Magma warriors have large shields and lots of hps.

Round 3. Mud vs Smoke: Smoke 100% wr, a few units lost per battle.
Round 4. Magma vs. Mud: Magma 92% wr
Round 5. Mist vs Smoke: Smoke 55% wr

Round 6. Magma vs Mist: Magma wins with 73% wr.


Comments: Magma warriors are best unit for unit and each ritual gives equal amounts. For ranged units stick with smoke warriors but since Magma and Smoke share fire gems you may have to choose. Mud Warriors do terribly vs ranged units and not much better vs melee, save your earth and water gems. I'll probably give them an armor value and hp buff in my modpack.

[carn112004]

Originally posted by Xelos:

I used the simplearenamod that produces 60 replicates of a battle to do testings. Here are my results for what you could say is a 5v5 bracket/tournament :

Round 1. Mist vs Mud: Mist clean sweep, 5 muds got crushed in every battle 60/60.
Round 2. Magma vs Smoke: Magma clean sweep, 5 Smoke warriors couldn't put enough arrows into magma warriors before they closed the gap and chopped them. Magma warriors have large shields and lots of hps.

Round 3. Mud vs Smoke: Smoke 100% wr, a few units lost per battle.
Round 4. Magma vs. Mud: Magma 92% wr
Round 5. Mist vs Smoke: Smoke 55% wr

Round 6. Magma vs Mist: Magma wins with 73% wr.


Comments: Magma warriors are best unit for unit and each ritual gives equal amounts. For ranged units stick with smoke warriors but since Magma and Smoke share fire gems you may have to choose. Mud Warriors do terribly vs ranged units and not much better vs melee, save your earth and water gems. I'll probably give them an armor value and hp buff in my modpack.

While magma is better than mud, one should not look only at such headon contests. E.g. if enemy flings around decay and/or disease the mud could be more on par with magma. Also for a series of attrition battles mud could be more on par with magma (though even with that magma is probably better in total).

This does not show in 5 on 5 head on tests. Same of course, if moral, mr or str of units differs.

[awc]

I love mud warriors. They have regen, regen means wound healing which means the minions generally "last" longer for me and thus are worth more than the others even if they hit a bit harder up front.

Good niches for mud warriors are for your patrolling commanders that don't need a ton of troops but need to keep independents in line. Also good for garrisons for same reasons.

[Xelos]

Originally posted by carn112004:

Originally posted by Xelos:

I used the simplearenamod that produces 60 replicates of a battle to do testings. Here are my results for what you could say is a 5v5 bracket/tournament :

Round 1. Mist vs Mud: Mist clean sweep, 5 muds got crushed in every battle 60/60.
Round 2. Magma vs Smoke: Magma clean sweep, 5 Smoke warriors couldn't put enough arrows into magma warriors before they closed the gap and chopped them. Magma warriors have large shields and lots of hps.

Round 3. Mud vs Smoke: Smoke 100% wr, a few units lost per battle.
Round 4. Magma vs. Mud: Magma 92% wr
Round 5. Mist vs Smoke: Smoke 55% wr

Round 6. Magma vs Mist: Magma wins with 73% wr.


Comments: Magma warriors are best unit for unit and each ritual gives equal amounts. For ranged units stick with smoke warriors but since Magma and Smoke share fire gems you may have to choose. Mud Warriors do terribly vs ranged units and not much better vs melee, save your earth and water gems. I'll probably give them an armor value and hp buff in my modpack.

While magma is better than mud, one should not look only at such headon contests. E.g. if enemy flings around decay and/or disease the mud could be more on par with magma. Also for a series of attrition battles mud could be more on par with magma (though even with that magma is probably better in total).

This does not show in 5 on 5 head on tests. Same of course, if moral, mr or str of units differs.

Realistically I have to put some limits or I'll be doing it all day.

[carn112004]

Originally posted by Xelos:

Realistically I have to put some limits or I'll be doing it all day.

Of course; and i think these is no way to realy test how much worth for example regen is; was just meant as reminder, that it has such non measurable advantages.

[Devin]

Mud warriors just seem too fragile to even benefit from their own regen.

[Xelos]

Originally posted by carn112004:

Originally posted by Xelos:

Realistically I have to put some limits or I'll be doing it all day.

Of course; and i think these is no way to realy test how much worth for example regen is; was just meant as reminder, that it has such non measurable advantages.

I think it is merely complicated by other factors. The saying "everything is relative" applies here. It is definitely measurable especially if someone went to trouble of creating custom units with specific attributes holding certain variables constant.

Originally posted by Devin:

Mud warriors just seem too fragile to even benefit from their own regen.

For sure. The value of regen is a function of HP (as it is percent based), armor, and burst damage potential of enemy. An enemy with high burst relative to a low number of HPs on regen unit is very different than if you had alot of very low dmg units who can't out burst the regen. The number of units matters too as the more you can spread out damage the better regen does (the doppel spawn are a good example of this).

[Aquillion]

Originally posted by Xelos:

I used the simplearenamod that produces 60 replicates of a battle to do testings. Here are my results for what you could say is a 5v5 bracket/tournament :

Round 1. Mist vs Mud: Mist clean sweep, 5 muds got crushed in every battle 60/60.
Round 2. Magma vs Smoke: Magma clean sweep, 5 Smoke warriors couldn't put enough arrows into magma warriors before they closed the gap and chopped them. Magma warriors have large shields and lots of hps.

Round 3. Mud vs Smoke: Smoke 100% wr, a few units lost per battle.
Round 4. Magma vs. Mud: Magma 92% wr
Round 5. Mist vs Smoke: Smoke 55% wr

Round 6. Magma vs Mist: Magma wins with 73% wr.


Comments: Magma warriors are best unit for unit and each ritual gives equal amounts. For ranged units stick with smoke warriors but since Magma and Smoke share fire gems you may have to choose. Mud Warriors do terribly vs ranged units and not much better vs melee, save your earth and water gems. I'll probably give them an armor value and hp buff in my modpack.

This isn't really fair to mud warriors, though. Yes, they have less immediate power, but their big advantage (like all small regenerating units) is that you lose less of them to attrition. Not only do they usually come back when killed, they also recover from afflictions.

Magma warriors are obviously more powerful one-on-one, but they're not so powerful that they won't get worn down over time. If I'm going for the long haul rather than just one big battle, I'd rather have a frontline of mud warriors backed by smoke or mist (or a powerful caster) than a frontline of magma warriors.

Also... I would argue that both the smoke and mist units are a waste. Air and cloud elementals are really strong; they do more damage, have longer range, frequently stun on a hit, and ignore armor. They don't heal, but who cares, their range is so long that they rarely take damage, and they're not supposed to be tanking anyway. So the vast majority of the time I'd rather spend my air gems on lesser air summoning, and the rest of my gems on stuff to tank for them. Either mud or magma warriors can get that job done depending on what you have available.

(Obviously they suck against anything immune to lightning, but that's not too common. In terms of units to use for expanding, massed lesser air summons are by far the Warlocks' best choice.)