Will I hate emily?

[Ahren]

This is the one and only game othe than MGS5 I've enjoyed stealth in. Blink is absolutely my favourite move... I love being able to just blink where I wanna go instead of trying to sneak up ledges, across streets. In DH1, I constantly blinked in buildings too simply to avoid enemy FOV.

From what I understand, Emily can grapple but during the leap she can be seen, She also cannot pause time or possess.. Honestly, her spells seem exclusively conductive to high chaos, which is not my goal.

I wanted to play Emily because the story revolves around her, and I want to play the girl from DH1 and the queen.....
buuuuuut her skillset is fairly unappealing.. Even if I string together 6 guards and knock them out, that is a lot of disposal (someone always sees someone unless you hide the body)

[chickadeedeedee]

Publicado originalmente por E-Money:

Well W3 actually has a tonne of excellent quests were there is very much a moral grey area, or making 'good' choices can have unintended and often horrifying results. But there are times where if you choose the murder option and kill largely innocent characters just 'cause you might want that rare item they'll drop, thats when Geralt starts talking like a kill happy douche bro. Like I said, I think the devs did it on purpose.

ed: I had no idea 'doosh' got word filtered.

I'm playing it right now, and I'm really impressed with the writing relative to other games, but it's not flawless either. This isn't a W3 thread though so I'll leave it there (feel free to add me and chat if you actually do want to go into detail about this)

@deborah
I think there's a problem with a lot of morally-grey writing in that a lot of developers are still trying to get us in sync with our player-characters by trying to actually convince us that their actions are right (or at least that their actions are fun), because they're trying to create an avatar for the player rather than a character for them to inhabit. When what they should be doing (or at least what I want) is putting more focus on the internal state of the character. I don't need to believe what I'm doing is right, I need to know why my character thinks this is right.

less "what would YOU choose if YOU were in this position"
more "make this decision from the point of view of THIS CHARACTER"

Like, I liked the Daud DLC a lot, he's by far my favorite character, and I love his whole arc. But the part of his story we see is the easiest part to write. We almost entirely see him after he hits rock bottom and is on his way up. The Daud who ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up and wants to make things right is still seeing things from a relatively reasonable perspective, and we can relate to that instinctively on some level.

The Daud who murdered Jessamine Kaldwin in cold blood would have been a much bigger challenge, because that guy has a big mess of cognitive dissonance and value distortion going on that makes him make decisions wildly out of step with what a normal person would.

That doesn't work with the "what would YOU do" approach (the problem with the first Dishonored) or if you try for the second approach but have weaksauce writing or performances (the problem with Dishonored 2).

and I have a lot of Thoughts about why Emily in particular is a completely incoherent character but I should really cut myself off here.

[LazyAmerican]

Still....it is fairly entertaining listening to her mutter things like how she wishes she could implant blood fly larvae into the hearts of all her opponents lol.

[gamertaboo]

Personally I wish neither of them were voiced, like in Dishonored 1. Didn't have to deal with any of this BS.

[deborah]

Publicado originalmente por chickadeedeedee:

That doesn't work with the "what would YOU do" approach (the problem with the first Dishonored) or if you try for the second approach but have weaksauce writing or performances (the problem with Dishonored 2).

I think where Dishonored succeeds and D2 almost succeeds is that you do inhabit a character that takes very little to tweak into a different mindset... it's not "what would I do" but "what should/would they do." It is completely believable that Corvo is insanely angry to the point of slaughtering everyone over the death of his Empress. It completely believable that he's a conservative assassin who only kills when absolutely necessary. We gravitate towards a certain type of gameplay and story, but we can easily explore other completely believable leanings. The more choices, the better.

The problem in D2 is Corvo occasionally stumbles at believability, and Emily just falls on her face. The story, writing, justifications, acting, etc. has all got to be there to keep the engagement and immersion intact. One of the worst spots for me is in the final mission, approaching the tower. I think they both say "That's a shame." I usually spend a minute or two cussing at the screen while looking around at the horrific scene they so blithely assess as a "shame."

I just started back at the beginning of D1. I'll have to pay attention to how I feel about silent vs. verbose Corvo.

[chickadeedeedee]

Publicado originalmente por deborah:

I just started back at the beginning of D1. I'll have to pay attention to how I feel about silent vs. verbose Corvo.

I keep going back and forth on this. I remember feeling like his character was kind of anemic on its own after just playing through for both the endings. I kept playing for the same reason I keep playing this one: I still love the setting wholeheartedly and I think the gameplay's a lot of fun.

I started warming up to Corvo after like 4-5 playthroughs and conversations with other fans, when I'd had time to piece together a more complete character instead of a non-entity. Like, it's still based on what exists in the canon, but I'd say my understanding of him (and Jessamine) is about 95% headcanon built on a scaffolding of 5% actual canon.

And based on how they have him act in the sequel, it's clear that the interpretation I went for wasn't the one that the developers intended, if they intended one at all. And while they've backpedalled since then, the initial defense of Corvo not being voiced was pretty explicity to make him a player-avatar.

I was willing to give up my specific interpretation of Corvo for something more specific in the sequel, but then they looked at every possible interesting direction to take his character and said "but what if we played it safe tho" and I HATE IT. But I'm glad they tried? But also I hate it so much. I was so dissapointed to see him become another boring sadsack father-figure action man.

I can't decide which is worse, an un-character (as opposed to a true blank slate, whose background we get to choose) or a medicore one.

I'm in a weird position, because on the one hand, I prefer the first game storywise because it was so open that we had the space to build Corvo into something really interesting.

On the other hand, I don't feel like giving the Devs credit for all that hard work. And I didn't actually want it to be that open, I wanted professional storytellers to tell me a rad story about a rad character that was more interesting than what me and my loud friends could come up with. I don't dislike Dishonored 2 for voicing and developing its characters, I dislike it for doing so so damn poorly.

[E-Money]

As far as the overall 'narrative' is concerned, it's biggest strength (for both D1 & D2) is in the world building you get to experience as you progress through the game and get to see Dunwall and Karnaca and their inhabitants. The plot's for both games are pretty thin. Which never bothered me, but its definitely more noticeable in D2. TKoD/Brigmore Witches is probably the best, and that owes a lot to Michael Madsen's performance as Daud.

I think The Dreadful Wale segment's were wasted with so few npcs to interact with. The Hound Pit had a 7 or 8 characters you could chat with between missions and their presence helped a bit towards realising a world outside of your own little mission.

I read somewhere the intro segment to D2 was initially going to be longer with the launching of the new ship named after Jessamine, now only mentioned very briefly at the start of the game. Actually getting to experience some life at Dunwall Tower prior to the coup probably would have added significantly to understanding Emily's desire to get her throne back.

[E-Money]

As far as player characters striking a balance between having a personality, but not so overly defined that the player can't project their own thoughts and ideas into the game, I always thought Booker from Bioshock Infinite was a good example.

[deborah]

@chickadeedee that gives me food for though. I'm not sure which way I lean on voice, but most of the time I'm okay with Corvo in D2. I don't think I ever felt anything missing in D1. They did a great job with immersion. I suspect I'll find myself leaning towards voiceless (i.e., the voice in my head do a better job than the actors). I don't really need all the clues and tips coming from the character I'm playing (it can be obnoxious and repetetive). I could have gotten the same info in other ways.

@E-Money I definitely agree on the lack of characters on the Wale. I miss the Hounds Pit. Good point about Booker... I think that was a good implementation. I don't recall ever being annoyed.

[DarkMatter]

They should of chucked some more happenings in the wale.

Emily is pretty much a stealth character and not bad once you work out how to dart about quickly with blink and hop up and down on stuff while carrying dead bodies without being spotted. You can't do as much funny stuff as MGS5, but the gameplay is pretty good and good story, plus lot's of secrets and stuff to figure out and find. Ether is pretty handy also.

Just be sure to save before chucking an uncounscoius person through a glass door.

[LazyAmerican]

Michael Madsen voiced Daud??? Wholy **** mind blown lol.

[Aries]

Emily's far reach can be made invisible by a bone charm you get in the game. But first two mission (I think) I did not get it. Her skillset is very different. Domino and mesmerise is really good for multiple takedowns.

[DogMeat]

Publicado originalmente por Aries:

Emily's far reach can be made invisible by a bone charm you get in the game. But first two mission (I think) I did not get it. Her skillset is very different. Domino and mesmerise is really good for multiple takedowns.

I absolutely loved tha bonecharm! Never got tired of snagging people from rooftops and then choking them out. That combined with her shadowalk nonlethal take downs actually makes her a fantastic nonlethal stealth character.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Emily has some abilities that allow you to affect multiple targets at once like Mesorize and Dominate which which both allow you to incapacitate people with one move.

[Anelyn]

Publicado originalmente por algroshaw:

This is the one and only game othe than MGS5 I've enjoyed stealth in. Blink is absolutely my favourite move... I love being able to just blink where I wanna go instead of trying to sneak up ledges, across streets. In DH1, I constantly blinked in buildings too simply to avoid enemy FOV.

From what I understand, Emily can grapple but during the leap she can be seen, She also cannot pause time or possess.. Honestly, her spells seem exclusively conductive to high chaos, which is not my goal.

I wanted to play Emily because the story revolves around her, and I want to play the girl from DH1 and the queen.....
buuuuuut her skillset is fairly unappealing.. Even if I string together 6 guards and knock them out, that is a lot of disposal (someone always sees someone unless you hide the body)

You are very wrong :)

She can be seen when using far reach, but that doesn't make you spotted (for ghost), and unless you are literraly traversing at 1m in front of them towards your destination they most likely won't even get past 1st detection level to start investigate (that on very hard ofc).

Emily can clear non-lethal best (and I mean full clear, not avoiding any single room / guard group / enemy), since her kit is pretty much built towards that.

Here are couple examples of her skillset usage from my current ghost / clean hands run on very hard:

a) there is a large group (2 overseers and 3 civilians spread in a moderate area) the overseers "guard" several goodies while telling stories to the civilians. You can domino 1 overseer with 1 civilian (won't tell you which, but you will figure it out yourself) - so the basic domino pretty much, then drop / throw a bottle of clorofhorm, and the whole group will drop like flies with nobody getting alerted or seeing you

b) upgraded far reach to pull enemies / items makes you like a spiderman, you sit in a tree / top of building / around corner etc, and pull enemies to you, grabbing and incapacitating them w/o them seeing you (obv you do it when they are not facing you, sure they will yell and panic, and alert their nearby friends, but they won't see you)

c) upgraded mesmerize gives you enough time to choke 4 targets and hide them nearby before wearing off (no specific bonecharms used) - or just to pass by most enemy groups or search the rooms they are in for all the loot

d) shadow walk is amazing for stealth, pretty much you are almost invisible in this form, you move much faster w/o making noise than normal, can use rat tunnels / vents and incapacitate instantly (much faster than choke, has better range as is not melee) up to 3 targets

e) domino maxed + mesmerize maxed + doppelganger maxed = you can clear a whole area of city non lethal with no witnesses / alerts at cost of 1-2 mana potions (depends on what bonecharms you use)

f) dopelganger is your best friend both for scouting / defense / preventing aggression / triggering or creating traps / instant relocation