Dragon's Wake Sequel Discussion

[Brainbox Software]

It's very early days yet, but I am planning on making a sequel to Dragon's Wake. Since I'm still in the planning phase I think that this would be a great time to get feedback from people who would be interested in playing a sequel, since it is much easier to incorporate new ideas from the start rather than halfway through.

Please be aware that if you have not already played Dragon's Wake that this thread will reference aspects of the first game that will be spoilers for someone that has not played through at least once. Continue reading at your own risk.




How To Sequel:
I believe that the correct way to make a sequel is 'Same as the first one, but more so'. I need to find the nuances and implications inherent in the story of the first game and bring them out in the second. I need to keep, or preferably expand the elements that people enjoyed in the first. To me this means more flying, more fighting, more growing, and your choices having more impact on the story. Let me know if I have missed any aspects that were core to your enjoyment of the first game.

Setting:
Unsurprisingly, the sequel will be set on the surface instead of solely in caves. I already have some ideas of what the player will find up there, but feel free to let me know if there is anything you particularly want to see, such as elvish tree cities, castles floating in the sky or demon infested hellscapes. No guarantees of course, but I would love to hear your thoughts.

Narrative Style:
Dragon's Wake used a text-free style of storytelling. I think it worked pretty well, and I learned a lot doing it, but I think I can create an even more compelling experience with different methods. In particular, I am thinking about using frequent short pieces of voice-over narration similar to Bastion or Thomas Was Alone. Does this sound like an improvement to you? Would you prefer me to keep the same style for the sequel? Or maybe some other style entirely?

Cannon Ending:
The ending of Dragon's Wake varies depending on player action. How should I deal with the different possible endings when creating the sequel?
I have heard the suggestion that I make the sequel such that it continues the story with whichever ending the player achieved in the first game. It's a cool idea, but impractical I think. Creating a compelling story with multiple endings is hard. Doing it with multiple endings, AND multiple beginnings? A bit much for a one-man studio.
(I mean I could do it easily if I made the green dragon and the guy with the red scarf minor characters that had little or no impact on events, but I don't think that would be very satisfying.)
So I think I need to pick one of the endings of the first game and make it the beginning of the sequel. I favor the ending where the green dragon survives, but what about the rest of you?

[Callak Skytower]

I personally really enjoyed how the characters interacted. You have a real nack for telling a story without words.

[Leniovias]

Yeah, i liked the story without words aswell.

I got some ideas that i'm just gonna throw in right now:

[Narrative Style] You could possibly try to build some kind of "playable movie segments", combined with "live stage changes" - e.g. imagine you walk up a mountain, when suddenly rocks start to crumble and you have to run away before they reach you - or when a storm approaches and sets a flash sets a roof on fire, and you try to save as many as you can. Stuff like that.

[Cannon Ending problem] This is indeed a huge problem, but maybe i got a solution for you: I'd like the game to come out in episodes like Life is Strange does. Therefore you would need to take both beginning, BUT (!!) why not combining the paths?
Wtf is he talking about?Well, i got two examples in mind:
1 (less logical one) - The green dragon did actually act as if he would've died. After defeating the knight, you go back to say goodbye, and you discover that he's actually at the edge of death - so you carry him for the first part, where he's going to recover after you've travelled to your destination. From there on both paths combine, and you do one mission without him (either let him rest [good ending] or let him get well again [not so good ending]), and there we go, problem solved.
2 (more likely) - [Good Ending] You are happy and decide to take a flight where you discover a place to stay. You'll take the shortest way. [Not so good Ending] You are sad that the young dragon died, and you decide to walk. on your way, you find another young dragon, being left alone, who managed to escape from the caves on his own, but is lonely and (jeez, i hate to say that right now) about to die if you leave him alone. You take him with you and from that spot on he's going to "replace" the green dragon.

However, if you have to decide for one of the two endings, please, please take the good one, otherwise i'll be very

[thestinsons]

I would LOVE a sequel I'm playing it right now and it feels so much fun! I would mainly reccomend in the sequel to simplify the jumping mechanics since I keep dying from messing those up

[Leniovias]

Originally posted by thestinsons:

I would LOVE a sequel I'm playing it right now and it feels so much fun! I would mainly reccomend in the sequel to simplify the jumping mechanics since I keep dying from messing those up

The jumping mechanics are quite easy as soon as you figured out how the jump actually works. You can even "cheat" some spots with it if done well, as I do in my speedruns xD
The key is to know when's the right time to flap your wings. ^^

[Callak Skytower]

Originally posted by thestinsons:

I would LOVE a sequel I'm playing it right now and it feels so much fun! I would mainly reccomend in the sequel to simplify the jumping mechanics since I keep dying from messing those up

Don't change the jumping mechanics, they are really the primary challenge to the game. And as SkyDrake said, they aren't that hard, just need a little practice. I personally, haven't died once in the game yet.

[Brainbox Software]

Originally posted by Callak Skytower:

I personally really enjoyed how the characters interacted. You have a real nack for telling a story without words.

Thanks! I like to think that I did a pretty good job too, but the fact is that I was limiting myself by avoiding using dialogue. I think I could make an even more compelling adventure by using a bit of context sensitive narration.
Let's put it this way - do you guys think you would have enjoyed Dragon's Wake more, less or the same if it had Bastion-style narration?

Originally posted by SkyDrake:

[Cannon Ending problem] This is indeed a huge problem, but maybe i got a solution for you: I'd like the game to come out in episodes like Life is Strange does. Therefore you would need to take both beginning, BUT (!!) why not combining the paths?

Why not combine the paths? Because if the outcome is the same then the choice doesn't matter. I have seen some 'choice and consequence' games do this, particularly ones by Telltale Games, and it always annoyed the bejeezus out of me. Especially considering how much extra effort it takes for a player to save the green dragon, I'm not going to turn around and undermine the value of that.

[Leniovias]

Originally posted by Brainbox Software:

Thanks! I like to think that I did a pretty good job too, but the fact is that I was limiting myself by avoiding using dialogue. I think I could make an even more compelling adventure by using a bit of context sensitive narration.
Let's put it this way - do you guys think you would have enjoyed Dragon's Wake more, less or the same if it had Bastion-style narration?

I think the way Dragon's Wake worked was absolutely fine, and i don't think a narrator would fit into the environment that the game is actually building. In my opinion, it was focused on exploring the world by yourself, to literally "live" the story. And there's no narrator in your life describing what you're doing right now.
You could maybe try to add some kind of dialogue. I kinda liked the way the lizardman was talking to me, and you could actually create dialoges between NPC's. And you still are able to make them sound angry, full of fear, annoyed or whatever if you just alter it a bit. I know, easier said than done, but I think that's actually an idea.

Originally posted by Brainbox Software:

Why not combine the paths? Because if the outcome is the same then the choice doesn't matter. I have seen some 'choice and consequence' games do this, particularly ones by Telltale Games, and it always annoyed the bejeezus out of me. Especially considering how much extra effort it takes for a player to save the green dragon, I'm not going to turn around and undermine the value of that.

Hm, well, true that... You still wouldn't need to create two completely different paths, since a few parts of the story could possibly be undependant of whether you rescued the yound dragon or not.
I think the bigger problem is that if you see it that way, there are actually FOUR different endings instead of two... It's not only that you either rescue the green dragon or not, but you can maybe rescue the lizardman leader and leave the other ones die, or rescue everyone except the dragon... - except you say that after leaving the caves, they go different paths (which i personally wouldn't like), then it's reduced to two "relevant" endings again...

[Brainbox Software]

Originally posted by SkyDrake:

I think the way Dragon's Wake worked was absolutely fine, and i don't think a narrator would fit into the environment that the game is actually building. In my opinion, it was focused on exploring the world by yourself, to literally "live" the story. And there's no narrator in your life describing what you're doing right now.

The thing is, I don't think I can continue in that style for the sequel because it won't be set underground. The player character is a dragon who can fly. This means that unless the story is set in a completely enclosed environment (such as underground) the player character can go wherever he wants, in whatever order he wants. This makes telling a coherent story much more challenging. Adding some sort of voice or text would make it much easier to communicate where they should go and what they should do next.

I do agree that the text-free narrative style worked out pretty well, but I also found myself frustrated by the inability to communicate things in any depth. It's easy for players to understand the events that are happening in front of them, but when it comes to the motivations of characters or their backstories, players only have vague hints (which isn't entirely a bad thing, but it is limiting).
I would like to be able to give the characters more nuance in the sequel rather than just general impressions of who they are and why they are doing things.

Originally posted by SkyDrake:

You could maybe try to add some kind of dialogue. I kinda liked the way the lizardman was talking to me, and you could actually create dialoges between NPC's. And you still are able to make them sound angry, full of fear, annoyed or whatever if you just alter it a bit. I know, easier said than done, but I think that's actually an idea.

I't not a bad way to make a game, but I don't think it would be practical for me. For various reasons, I expect that adding voice acting to all of the major characters would be a lot more work than a single narrator voice. It's also risky, since a single bad voice actor can really mess up the player's enjoyment of the game (at least, I am that way), and I might not be able to find enough talented voice actors.
That said, text-only dialogue might not be out of the question. Something like Cave Story perhaps. Would people prefer that, or a narrator like Thomas Was Alone or Bastion?

[Leniovias]

Originally posted by Brainbox Software:

The thing is, I don't think I can continue in that style for the sequel because it won't be set underground. The player character is a dragon who can fly. This means that unless the story is set in a completely enclosed environment (such as underground) the player character can go wherever he wants, in whatever order he wants. This makes telling a coherent story much more challenging. Adding some sort of voice or text would make it much easier to communicate where they should go and what they should do next.
[...]
I would like to be able to give the characters more nuance in the sequel rather than just general impressions of who they are and why they are doing things.

Hm yeah, I see the problem... Greetings from the Spyro-Franchise and the good old PS1-games here :P
How about adding some sort of speech bubbles which contain images? That could be a solution to add way more extra information without having to add any form of text, neither written nor spoken.
I still don't like the idea of a narrator since I believe that it would destroy the feel of the game - but I definetly understand the problems that come when not having one. So if there's really no other way - and I'll try to bring more ideas to help you out as long as I have hope to avoid that to happen :P - then you could think of adding a narrator... but i'd like it more if the game would keep telling it's story without any words (human words, greetings to Lizardman!) at all.

[СахарнаяКосточка]

+

[Luca UnixU]

This game is amazeing I would Love a Sequel. As for game play..

The Voice over narration Sounds Very interesting. But After Some thought I think It wouldn't Fit in the game Very well. I think a Text Based Story Would Fit better

Perhaps If your Going to Pick the Ending With the Green Dragon Saved... You could Make him A Partner. Or mabey Be able to Build a Small Team

I know this is Alot of work But Just some ideas

[Hosscatt]

I am very happy to hear the setting will take place on the surface. I loved the areas in this first one, but I was expecting to finally leave the caves. I also enjoyed the factor of 'raising' the baby dragon and I would love to see this expanded in a sequel. Maybe be able to add multiple dragons or creatures to your party to care for and level up with you?

[Krysle Quinsen]

For Gameplay, Same with more is always the best, not sure what I can suggest though as I'm not sure what will fit the sequel, but based on the current one, I think more collectible or something to do after the end would be great. I like jumping/gliding, though.

For Settings, I don't have specified, but I hope it will not just be too generic fantasy settings or revenge.

For Narrative Style, I prefer the current, no text but media-based (image+music) with live cutscene style, as it fit the game more and giving player's imaginary run wild, but it does have a confusion problem, according to TVTropes, It's about World ruled by Dragon but somehow I experienced it as someone is pissed the Dragon and they go rampaging then get revenge by Black Knight. I think Chat with an image like SkyDrake's suggestion can be a good way to prevent this without changing the style.
If it really had to changes, I suggest third-personal narrative style (something like story narrative book - 'The Lizardmen told the Dragon that there's shelter on the west", scrolling one would be better than one line), not sure if Bastion style would fit (is this same as 3rd narrative style? I don't remember )

For Cannon, I don't mind multiple ending but I do mind multiple beginning. Although with any ending could start with same beginning as with 'less logical one' section from SkyDrake even with good ending, Green Dragon did take multiple hits from Black Knight, so I think that starting with injured Green Dragon would fit, and on bad end could mean unconscious Green Dragon (but load screen doesn't seem to agree with this ) and Lizard Leader could escape on his own and meet you later in the sequel. I have my analysis of multiple beginning problems below.

(Cannon Analysis) I don't remember a game with multiple beginning and multiple ending that have a distinctive outcome. Even BioWare games make all characters you saved as minor or just giving an additional dialog or choices. Then again the current ending is just character saved or not saved unless you want to do multiple story paths if specified character is alive I think even is alive is better because you will either lose a bonus (if have a companion system or just extra feeling), story choice, or need to use a new character as a replacement. (I hate this solution most, because it may either lead to "I love both old and new character" (because you may only have one or another, having both characters may lead to gameplay bonus problem I said earlier) or new character with no personality problem (which can lead to another loss of story)

Cheers.

[Jam Bringer]

What I would want in a sequel:

-Keep the "no words" thing. That is really cool and you do it really well. As well as practical - the most popular YouTube video about this game is in Spanish.

-Keep with the branching storyline. I really like how my actions affected the outcome and it added replay value to the game.. which was important for how short it was.

-On top of this: have your actions in the first game reflected in the beginning of the second. That is, have the ability for the sequel to read endings to the first game. So if you saved the green dragon you start with her, or not, etc.

-Consider a different artist for the between-scene art. Some of the pictures were good (like the one with the hatchling looking up and smiling in the cave near the start), but overall I feel they marred the overall quality of the game.

-Keep the weird flight controls. Work on the weird stomp controls. I finally got that the stomp only works if you have a certain height, but maybe give the player some feedback instead of just having the stomp not work and implying that the control didn't respond. So if you stomp from too low a height it makes a weak earthquake that doesn't do anything.

[Jafira Dragon]

Yo, I'm excited to hear about the possiblity of a sequel, I loved the game so far and really enjoyed the lack of understandable speech. I felt that it was realistic as a dragon just out of an egg would not understand the language of the first beings it encountered or its own backstory, it would interpret and adapt to interactions which is what occured and made the game cute and unique. That said, I would personally agree with Skydrake and others in recommending possibly ultilizing speech bubble icons when necessary alongside any important lizard gibberish.

Everything else was perfect, I enjoyed the music, loved the controls, the art was fine though if you wish to diversify it with other styles it couldn't hurt. Overall I found the first game to be very sweet and engaging with a good amount of replay value. I'd expect the sequel to simply be more of the same - a dragons growth and progress to adulthood while protecting the green dragon and tribal lizard friends on their new path.

I would suggest ultilizing the good ending as canon as ideally that is the ending that most players of the first would have worked to earn or experience, so would likely wish to see the fruits of their labor continued.

Multiple endings, choices, consequences and paths is a good dynamic so I'd suggest keep it up. I guess I'd like to see the sequel expand upon the original story and build upon it. Determine why the dragon race and allies were being hunted by the black knight and allow for a scenario or circumstance wherein the dragon and friends might fight to redeem or defend their existence.

Overall I pretty much loved what I played and wished it were longer, you did beautiful work, so please more of the same. If the game had been longer or continued on, what events and settings would have been experienced on the surface? Whatever your personal answer to that is, it is likely what I would like to see next, follow your vision and keep up the great work!