An opinion about the antigravity update.

[Tathendal]

GRIP is one of my favourite games of all time, it is even really close of being #1. My most played game on Steam. I like the developers, they listen to community, they have a strong vision they made come reality and continue to make it better and bigger. I have bought several copies of the game and even the collectors edition (I have never bought another collector's edition in my life). I say all this in hope of emphasizing more what I have to say.

I feel that the recent update really was a really big misstep. I am talking of course about including antigravity vehicles in the game (to put another way, including a version of each car without wheels).

I don't get the antigravity thing. At all. Am I the only one? I played with several ag vehicles on several tracks maybe 100-200 laps and a couple of online multiplayer races.

GRIP - The fastest game on four wheels. I feel like that has the identity of GRIP in a nutshell. Big part of the game and it's identity - to me- are the big fat tires and rims. Airblades look just cars without wheels. They look like little chics just hatched from eggs with those "wings", stumps out of their body.

AG vehicles are boring to drive. They are too easy to drive. The whole point of feeling the speed is the dangerousness of it all, the tires that take contact on ground. There is no feedback when you are touching the ground and when you are not. Nevertheless, you cannot steer the ag vehicle if its above the ground some amount.

Without the contact to the ground, driving (/flying??!!) doesn't feel nearly as good. I tested on multiple tracks and you can pretty much just hold gas without braking not considering the few exeptions, hairpins etc. Couple of laps felt interesting, then it just feels really boring.

AG racing requires air brakes or some other unique mechanism like RedOut's twin stick steering to be interesting. THere is nothing interesting in piloting a floating boat just using regular car inputs.

A big thing in GRIP is the tracks and the terrain, you must be able to control your car, your steering, your grip, your drift, take into account if the wheels are touching the ground or not, you must take every bump into account. This is also what makes the cars differentiate from eachother (how they react in the bumbs and falls and jumps). AG vehicles don't have this at all, which makes it boring. Terrain or the alterations in the terrain or track don't matter. That's boring. It doesn't matter if you drive on a road full of big rocks or on tarmac. A small jump? Doesn't matter. All the same.

I tested multiple (not all, I admit) AG vehicles, they don't feel really different to eachother. Some accelerate more and some are faster, granted. Still, there isnt't the unique feeling that the wheeled cars each one has. Engine sounds seem to be somewhat similar to eachother too (ok this is a quick judgement, but still).

It feels stupid to have AG and regular vehicles in same race in same time. They seem like they belong in totally different universes and timelines or realities. And to a different lore.

I really, REALLY don't get the reason for including AG vehicles in GRIP. Maybe it was to get more and wider audience? GRIP is a niche game, devs had said that themselves many times. For that reason, I don't understand this logic at all.

Many AG racing games, biggest and best of them, RedOut, does AG racing so well. Why try and compete with that? If you are not competing, you cannot think that the AG racing physics and mechanics WON'T get compared to the genre's best. YOu really can't speak of redout and GRIP in same sentence in terms of AG racing physics. After all, they are both unique games that does their own thing exceptionally.

Speaking of physics, the whole lifetime of the game it has been developed the physics and WHEELS in mind. The AG vehicles feels so tacky, so gimmicky. It feels like it doesnt belong there, and was just decided for whatever weird reason that I personally don't get. The game just doesn't work with something that you just suddenly decide to add that changes how the core mechanics, the most important things in the game, how the driving feels, work.

The biggest gripe, however, is the game's identity. Cmon mans, WHEELS are GRIP's whole identity! THe name of the game is GRIP! To me, this feels like your favourite military shooter just decided to add plasma guns and guns that shoots cows. And fart guns. Even if you could disable those for yourself, there are still people that will use them, will post videos of them, will want to use them and thus you won't be able to play in same server if you don't want to. They will be part of the game, part of the community, they will always BE THERE in every sense, even if you don't use them. Thing's won't go away if you close your eyes.

I don't understand committing so much work to this thing in secrecy, without the community's opinion heard. It takes the game to so different direction. As a surprise, I would've understood the AG if it had been an easter egg mode, or even DLC. If it had been clearly it's own sidetrack, a novelty, it's own thing. As such, it would've worked better lore-wise and all-my-other-points-made-in-this-post-wise. And as said, don't put AG cars and wheeled cars in the same race! It feels just stupid.

In other news, the new spacetrack is cool but boring, it is way too easy. It's just a highway. It has cool things, all the moving things for example. But it feels like it was desinged for the AG cars and hyperspeed in mind. The other track is quite easy too, but it's cool and fun.

Dear developers, I would like to hear your vision, reasons and logic on the on this matter, maybe I can get some understanding and get over this to keep enjoying GRIP.

Please don't say that "you can disable AG in settings". That is 100% beside the point. Including them has used up dev's resources and time that could have been used working on something else. And now that the AG is there, it is clear that it is going to shape the game's identity, the development process and future updates, EVERYTHING related to the game. And eat up from other updates and content. Even if I never used them, it narrows down the (already not too plentiful in amount) online lobbies I want to go and other players available lobbies, if they don't want come to mine if I have it disabled.

[Arkay]

This was an interesting read.
I'll admit I have not yet played the update.

I was... optimistic, yet skeptical when I first saw the update trailer.
I think a lot of my skepticism has been confirmed through this post.
My main concern was that this update might be an elaborate workaround to get passed the wheeled vehicles randomly sliding out of control for no reason - which was the huge flaw that turned me (And I'm sure many others) off the game in the first place.

[Tathendal]

Originally posted by Countess Roadkill:

My main concern was that this update might be an elaborate workaround to get passed the wheeled vehicles randomly sliding out of control for no reason - which was the huge flaw that turned me (And I'm sure many others) off the game in the first place.

This is a point I actually forgot to include; in this sense many people might consider the AG vehicles are a good thing, and an "answer" (in a way) to this "problem", i.e. for beginners. I don't personally feel there is any random sliding for no reason (except for certain cars in certain parts of certain tracks but that's another thing).

Also my intention wasn't to discourage anyone, please, try it yourself and make up your own opinion, I'd like to hear it!

[CHIEF THUNDERCHEEKS]

The degree to which you're looking into and condemning this feels like a bit of a disservice to the lighthearted spirit of it, if I'm honest. I know where you're coming from, though, it's practically an injoke made real.

This mode, like a lot of other modes like Hyperspeed and Frogger, evolved from a physics bug the developers found amusing and rather than killing it, refined it into its own thing. It wasn't about competing, or "reaching out", but the fact that it did was pretty cool.
https://twitter.com/Shipstorm1/status/1107319676915212290

It doesn't really feel stupid to me, because it's, well, a war of tech. Old vs. new, the day is upon us!

Balance wise, yes, the blades are a bit easier to handle on rougher terrain and going over crests, but overall slower into and out of corners, and way more susceptible to weapons fire besides the minigun.

Aesthetics and lore wise, they're literally retrofitted antigrav drives that draw power from the main engine's power to the wheels. They look like slapped on attachments because that's what they are.

I like both modes as they give me more ways to enjoy the game and tracks, at my choosing. The power and fun of rollers isn't diminished at all from the presence of blades... just paper airplanes to shoot down!

The only objective issue I agree with is the multiplayer. If I'm not in the mood for blades and all there is is a blades-only lobby, yeah, that sucks. I'll just make another one, then. Another is how resistant blades are to car impacts, the collision boxes feel too large. If you rear-end one, it just doesn't budge.

I love Grip too, mate, but I wouldn't be worried. I don't believe they're leaving rollers behind in terms of development.

[Tathendal]

Really good points, thanks. Yet I feel AGs should have been it's own mod, precisely as you say, in your analogue of Frogger and Hyperspeed, then it would have been totally different thing, as I said, a novelty, a sidetrack, it's own thing, not a big part of the actual game impacting everything.

[Tathendal]

Originally posted by Josh:

HA! You really think this game is accessible? Hand the controller to someone who has never played the game and see how they play. Thats all I got to say man. I actually play thing game with friends and everytime someone new plays they crash into literally everything, and the car is all over the place. Airblades are a blessing in that regard.

I will write up something later but that comment is simply untrue. I love this game to death but give me a break.

I genuinely don't understand what are you saying.

I never said the game is accessible and I certainly don't think that way (if by accessible you mean beginner friendly). I think you misunderstood a couple of points I was trying to make. On the contrary; I meant that the game isn't accessible (the game is niche, I think so and devs think so) and the AG might make it a little more accessible. And my exact point in the last post was that AG vehicles are more accessible, so we seem to agree about it here.

Mind to clarify, what comment is "simply untrue" ? Clearly all I wrote is just my personal opinion I never even tried to make any factual statements, I tried to be clear with that. Also I tried to be as civil and polite as possible in expressing my views, I surely hope we manage to keep the conversation that way. I am not accusing anybody and clearly the vast majority of players enjoy the new update, and I am happy for that. This was purely my personal feeling and I wanted to see how other people and developer think about antigravity vehicles fitting in GRIP.

Looking forward to your reply.

EDIT: Got to let you know (even if not directly related here), I have been playing many times splitscreen with my 6-year old, she likes the big cars!

[potterman28wxcv]

I would not say that GRIP loses its identity. I would rather say that GRIP is taking yet another change in its identity. Over the course of the years it went from "Rollcage Stage 3" to "We want to inspire from Rollcage but it won't be a Rollcage clone" to what we knew as GRIP, with its numerous differences compared to Rollcage, and now it's taking yet another turn.

This is a very bold move. Because, as you say yourself: you can't just ignore the airblades. They are here to stay, the game (especially online multiplayer) is now changed forever in that regard. And it's all the more bold that the game is now out of Early Access - it's rare to see such a sudden change in a released game.

And yes, I guess GRIP will never beat a specialized AG game in its own territory. You would need more buttons like you say, for airbrakes and whatnot, but this is not possible to do because there are already so many used buttons, so we end up with a design that looks minimalistic (compared to other AG games).

I was very sceptical when I heard about this update. I've never been a fan of Wipeout, I personally find Redout boring (but i know it is completely subjective), and my first feelings were really mixed. Then I actually tried it, and I do like the feeling. Why?

I don't have any airbrake or weird rotation to care about unlike some other AG games. The minimalism of the design is actually a strength for me - yet at the same time, I have to drive these aircrafts differently than if i had to drive a car. Instead of drifting my way out of a corner, i will prefer to turn earlier and braking before turning. I have slightly more controls over jumps so i can use that to my advantage too. I mean, there are enough new stuff in the handling to keep it interesting - and it is as simple to drive them than to drive a car.

In terms of gameplay it really fits for me. Now I can understand that people will be missing GRIP having only Rollcage-ish cars.. But I personally stopped taking GRIP as Rollcage 3 some time ago, and came to appreciate it as its own game. Besides, the core of the game is still there. You don't have to use Airblades to win a race - cars are generally as performant as airblades, you can continue to have the feeling you're talking about (feeling the bumpiness of the road) by driving a roller. Or maybe the Airblades are slightly overpowered, but if that's the case, I have no doubt a next patch could rebalance them.

I also see that GRIP was dying. It's hard for a game to come back once it's released. They did try a few times to get more people in with some comm', but the people never really stayed because of the sheer difficulty and frustrating elements of the game - not only do you fight other cars, you also fight the track : bumpiness, dead stops, flying out.. It's all good for us veterans, we enjoy it, and we also had quite a few years to get used to it. But it was (at least, for me) disheartening to see people joining a multiplayer game only to ragequit because they kept falling behind. Or to see streamers trying the game and then "damn this game is too hard for me" and quit.

Today, a streamer actually hit 1.9k concurrent viewers on twitch. We had more viewers than Warframe, he was on the front page of Twitch, which is a big first for GRIP. Guess which cars he was driving ? Rhino Airblade, then Ictus Airblade. He got 8th-10th most of the races, but after 2 hours he started to aim towards 5th and even came 4th at some point (almost 3rd), despite the few veterans that were present in the lobby. I really doubt he would have done the same with a Roller car - but the most important part is that he got to choose a vehicle that he liked. And he had a blast playing it.

If the devs had not done this, the game would have continued to sink over and over, and we would not have stepped out of our stagnant circle of veterans. Of course, each and every game eventually stops bringing beginners (a few exceptions aside) - but I prefer a game that became easier and brought new people in, rather than the super niche hardcore racing game that GRIP was (and still is, to some extent, but now it's just gone a little better). I want to meet new people, I don't want to race always against the same ~10 dudes that constitute the regular (those who play often) veteran MP community.

So personally, I'm welcoming the change, and I hope it will work towards bringing more people to the community. But I also know you're far from being the only one to have this opinion.. At some point, decisions have to be made, for better or for worse.

[fenixblue]

Admittedly I was surprised it wasn't a full blown sequel or paid DLC but potterman has it right and I couldn't have said it better.

The update was something the programmer came up with for fun and he succeeded with setting itself apart from being a Rollcage HD.

Really this is just a different 'class' of GRIP vehicle you can use in the game. It's the same story as when Nintendo finally added cycles to MarioKart after a long tradition of being karts only. A different way to handle the tracks, and cycles arent "karts" but it just added more variety in the game and allows veterans to experience old tracks with a fresh experience.

If you don't like it then you can stick to being a grip purist and keep it on wheels, but I found the addition detracts nothing from the game and only allows more people to get some fun out of it, and since the update there's more people recommending the game which can only be a win for the devs. More sales = more players = more money for devs to put out updates

I'd be down for some 2 or 3 wheeled grippers too, ala XtremeG but I don't know how they'd handle any differently in terms of a racer class since an armor stat is basically completely absent in this game when all you do is spin out. Maybe they could use something with a slipstream since they're more aerodynamic?

[Julius Seizure]

Honestly I see nothing wrong with the AG vehicles. They're not really my style of thing, I'm in it for the wheels but I think it's a cool thing to add and gives some more variety for those who consider themselves too elite to drive on such peasant-like wheels ;)

[Tathendal]

Thanks everyone for sharing your views! Potty, you make very good points and the reasons you present behind this decision makes sense - to some extent - for me. I guess this boils down to a classic forever type of question, whether to please the old crowd and experienced players, or to try to make something new to make the game bigger and attract new players. I still don't get and agree with it - but I guess I start to understand it a bit, at least. I just yet have to go through the "accepting"-phase, lol.

[N°6 Kapitän Traumtor]

the few I played felt like, It would have been better to split the two univers, because they cant make a different gameplay for antigrav ships in order to not unbalance the whole race for one or the other kind of runners. Spliting the two univers would allow to create an unique way to play with the antigrav craft, and its true that braking and nose management is part of that kind of games. It worked well for star wars racers which had no braking management angle in gameplay, but the nose management was huge but tracks were thought according to that kind of ships, which is not completly the case here, even if they are really good for such crafts. I was just personally thinking it would have been in a diffferent univers and not mixed into the original one :)

[Country Steaks]

Originally posted by Tathendal:

Many AG racing games, biggest and best of them, RedOut, does AG racing so well.

Except, it doesn't do it as well as one might think.
I can't remember now whether I stumbled upon this latent characteristic of RedOut by chance, or if I actually deduced it once I'd grown familiar with the game's physics, but I do remember discovering that the quickest way around the tracks is to allow your vehicle to continuously slam and scrape against the walls and boundaries when cornering, and this is despite the fact that this was never an evidently intended aspect of the game's design.

At least in the case of Grip, with regards to both the ground and air vehicles, "riding" along walls is actually an intended aspect of design, and cornering "properly" is, for the most part, the only way to get anywhere fast. To put it another way, you have to resort to piloting in a purposely sloppy way in RedOut if you want to be as quick as possible, whereas Grip at least necessitates graceful mastery of the tracks in order to be as quick as possible.

[Tathendal]

Originally posted by Country Steaks:

quickest way around the tracks is to allow your vehicle to continuously slam and scrape against the walls and boundaries when cornering

DUDE. It seems to me that you haven't played RedOut or even seen videos of it. Seriously you think this? You EXPLODE in redout if you hit too many walls and it is never the fastest way anyways.

And this wasn't even my point. SIMPLIFIED: My point with mentioning RedOut was that to make AG racing interesting, the steering mechanics need something more than gas, brake, left, right. With wheels these inputs CAN be enough because there are more variables as mentioned, grip, drift, terrain, jumps, etc.

[CHIEF THUNDERCHEEKS]

Originally posted by Country Steaks:

I can't remember now whether I stumbled upon this latent characteristic of RedOut by chance, or if I actually deduced it once I'd grown familiar with the game's physics, but I do remember discovering that the quickest way around the tracks is to allow your vehicle to continuously slam and scrape against the walls and boundaries when cornering, and this is despite the fact that this was never an evidently intended aspect of the game's design.

While veering offtopic, the wallgrind meta was patched out a long time ago. At some point in its early life, wall friction was lowered in response to difficulty complaints which led to wallgrinding being the fastest method of driving. It was restored after a few patches.

[Tathendal]

One more point to clarify to what Potty said. Personally I have never considered GRIP as Rollcage3, it seems same (you drive big cars with big wheels) but feels totally different, and it has from the beginning. GRIP has it's own identity of course. This isn't the reason for my opinion.

I am still very eager to hear the developer's view and thoughts on this matter, I hope I will get a reply!

[Chris@CE]

Hey Tath

I think this comes down to subjectivity. We as devs like how the Airblades feel. We, and a lot of players, find them to be fun. Some won't, including yourself.

Our AG vehicles feel like nothing I've ever played. They are weighty with proper physics and feel like they're actually hovering. Also, I'm pretty sure there's never been a game with both wheeled and hover cars in the same race. Or at least recently, that is.

We wanted to mix things up and give people a game like no other. Super fast, flippable tank cars that can either be wheeled or hover. Pretty ****in cool, no? ;)