The biggest reason why Rollcage is still superior...

[didububi]

...is that you're not on auto-pilot when you hold down accelerate. The original game is unforgiving: when you hit the sides you're in danger of losing all balance and have to correct course manually. This type of collision detection is realistic physics in action if you consider the immense speeds. And if you deactivate catch-up and auto-align you get the kinds of thrilling races for which it's famous.

Grip has done a commendable job with the presentation. The feel of the vehicles has much improved since the beta days, but it still has that hand-holding problem which many modern games have (comparable with how the original Tomb Raider games required precise manual jumping whereas the modern ones have more auto-pilot platforming).

I tested this thus:

On Grip I chose an easy track and did nothing except hold down accelerate. No turning, no brakes, nothing. I still managed to keep up with the field and almost completed an entire lap before finally hitting a dead-end where I had to reverse-and-turn. I straightened up then again did nothing other than keep my finger on accelerate. Again the game just drove on auto-pilot (i.e. kept straightening my vehicle), despite me regularly hitting the sides, colliding with a car, making dodgy jumps off the side off ramps and going upside down in tunnels, jumping off upside-down. My vehicle kept going in the right direction.

This is obvious auto-pilot scripting which goes against the rollcagian-ethos of punishing you for being careless.

For comparison's sake I did the same test with Rollcage, and within seconds the vehicle was all over the place: up in the air, going the wrong way. I kept manually-correcting to see if there was a longer section where merely holding down the accelerate would keep me going through the track but obviously (for those who cherish the original as the greatest racing game of all time) I was punished for expecting the game to hold my hand like that. As soon as hitting a side, colliding with another car/debris, making mini-jumps my vehicle would lose control and I'd have to manually steer & brake to correct if I wanted to keep going in the right direction. That's how it should be.

I'm considering making a youtube of it to clearly demonstrate, but I'm hoping I've missed a setting somewhere which deactivates Grip's auto-pilot as other than this one crucial flaw the game does everything else right.

Interestingly, even Rollcage Stage II had this issue: to a lesser degree than Grip, but it sure wasn't as punishing and uncomprising as the original game was. Stage II and Grip both feel more like the Wipeout series. The original Rollcage stands pretty much alone in how it races.

In the case of Grip, is this always-on 'auto-pilot' mechanic intentional? As there are more people complaining about how unforgiving Rollcage was than there are celebrating it? Or is it more that the original game's physics are so mysterious it's just not replicable?

[Broscar]

You're right, didububi. It's part of the reason why almost none of the Rollcage veterans play this game.
GRIP has a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling. If you're a casual gamer, GRIP will kick your butt hard. If you're an experienced gamer, GRIP doesn't have the gameplay elements that allows you to differentiate yourself from other experienced gamers.

We addressed this a few years ago, but the complaints were ignored.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK5CLxI7lyY&t=2m40s(Skip to 2:40. Steam disables starting youtube at a certain timecode)
20 seconds of me just holding acceleration. Doesn't make for very interesting gameplay.
This is because most of the tracks are pretty wide (especially the old/launch ones) and wall-hugging is a viable tactic (though now nerfed on some tracks by placing ramps at the edges of corners, lel).

Ontopic: Personally I'm happy that cars more easily align to the right direction in GRIP. Rollcage was extremely punishing for new players because of the tornado spinning and flipping+camera awkwardness and experienced players knew how to easily counter it or outright not run into the issue (being able to do this was your reward for investing time and effort in the game). There's potential to fix this and introduce something else for experienced players to excell in without hurting the casual fanbase.
The end result for how it was implemented in GRIP though? Newbs are still punished very hard for crashes (just not by tornado spinning this time around) and experienced players now have one less gameplay element to learn/optimize/differentiate themselves in.

[Nine Breaker]

If game not hard enough for you, turn Catch Up On, set rivals to Lethal and choose Acrophobia or Outpost Reverse. I promise you get #1 Butthurt. And game have lots of dead ends, easy tracks supposed to be easy. Choose more complicated courses and hit gas pedal, you ram wall as soon as it appear. This game punish you for being careless, you probably just wont tested more hard scenarios.
P.S: Devs even created topic where people pointing on abnormal amount of obstacles, so choose smth different than Speedbowl to test.
P.P.S: its funny to tell developers "how it should be, because i want absolutely the same game but with modern graphics". Its their game and its not Rollcage III.

[Broscar]

Nine Breaker, that's a straw man. People are fine with GRIP being it's own game and actually like that, but it has problematic gameplay issues and the best comparison in gameplay there is to make (because by nature it's the closest in gameplay style to), is Rollcage.
I could compare it to Forza, Redout, Wipeout, Mario Kart, Project Cars, iRacing, Trackmania, BeamNG, Dirt, The Crew, Driveclub, Gran Turismo, Sonic All-Stars Racing Transformed, Need for Speed and while it has similarities to these titles, the closest to it is still Rollcage.
Furthermore, it actually advertises to be a spiritual successor to Rollcage and targets it's former audience.

But hey, I'll humour you.

WipEout HD has a low skill floor (slow speed setting + autosteer = a 7-year old can play it and will still have fun) and a high skill ceiling (balancing regular turning and airbrakes for optimal cornering, hugging walls is punished, sideshifts, barrel roll optimization, angle of attack can be altered to adjust airtime, landing and even cornering).

You start a race, you GO. It's exciting from the get-go. Crashes aren't punished as severely because you stay on the track and you can accelerate back up really quickly.
GRIP is terribly slow off the grid and recovering is a slog (and depending on the track section ahead, borderline impossible). They refuse to increase acceleration, but do acknowledge this issue. Why else would almost every single track now have boost pads right at the start gate and why else would reset spam be enabled with it giving you 150+kph initial speed?
Reset spamming is an actual main gameplay element in this game with it's own dedicated button on the gamepad.

Furthermore GRIP has an issue with launching cars into the air, giving them too much airtime, which is a very common complaint. Chris tried to minimize this by streamlining tracks, but then they release Hive Horizon, which proudly slaps the red ramps at the edges of corners to yeet players into the stratosphere.
WipEout HD's solution is to just massively slow down their ships.
Rollcage's method to discourage wall hugging where they didn't want it, is to make the walls bumpy so that cars spin out when they run into them.
Ironically GRIP already has it's own solution in horizontal ramps placed in the corners for people to slam into, but they're not utilised widely.

If the intention of GRIP is to actually be this super punishing but shallow game, that's fine, but it resulted in it being in a very narrow sweet spot for a very small and select group of people (in an already niche genre) whilst alienating both the casual and more hardcore gamers.

The only reason I don't shut up about it instead of just leaving it alone like everyone else does, is because I think it has enough potential to be the best in its genre with legit solid gameplay.

[Nine Breaker]

Originally posted by Broscar:

Nine Breaker, that's a straw man. People are fine with GRIP being it's own game and actually like that, but it has problematic gameplay issues and the best comparison in gameplay there is to make (because by nature it's the closest in gameplay style to), is Rollcage.
I could compare it to Forza, Redout, Wipeout, Mario Kart, Project Cars, iRacing, Trackmania, BeamNG, Dirt, The Crew, Driveclub, Gran Turismo, Sonic All-Stars Racing Transformed, Need for Speed and while it has similarities to these titles, the closest to it is still Rollcage.
Furthermore, it actually advertises to be a spiritual successor to Rollcage and targets it's former audience.

But hey, I'll humour you.

WipEout HD has a low skill floor (slow speed setting + autosteer = a 7-year old can play it and will still have fun) and a high skill ceiling (balancing regular turning and airbrakes for optimal cornering, hugging walls is punished, sideshifts, barrel roll optimization, angle of attack can be altered to adjust airtime, landing and even cornering).

You start a race, you GO. It's exciting from the get-go. Crashes aren't punished as severely because you stay on the track and you can accelerate back up really quickly.
GRIP is terribly slow off the grid and recovering is a slog (and depending on the track section ahead, borderline impossible). They refuse to increase acceleration, but do acknowledge this issue. Why else would almost every single track now have boost pads right at the start gate and why else would reset spam be enabled with it giving you 150+kph initial speed?
Reset spamming is an actual main gameplay element in this game with it's own dedicated button on the gamepad.

Furthermore GRIP has an issue with launching cars into the air, giving them too much airtime, which is a very common complaint. Chris tried to minimize this by streamlining tracks, but then they release Hive Horizon, which proudly slaps the red ramps at the edges of corners to yeet players into the stratosphere.
WipEout HD's solution is to just massively slow down their ships.
Rollcage's method to discourage wall hugging where they didn't want it, is to make the walls bumpy so that cars spin out when they run into them.
Ironically GRIP already has it's own solution in horizontal ramps placed in the corners for people to slam into, but they're not utilised widely.

If the intention of GRIP is to actually be this super punishing but shallow game, that's fine, but it resulted in it being in a very narrow sweet spot for a very small and select group of people (in an already niche genre) whilst alienating both the casual and more hardcore gamers.

The only reason I don't shut up about it instead of just leaving it alone like everyone else does, is because I think it has enough potential to be the best in its genre with legit solid gameplay.

WipeOut Omega Collection on PS4 is IMO absolute casual heaven. Even my girlfriend having 0 problems on hardest difficulty.
Acceleration is real problem. No doubt.
Launching cars is absolute nightmare on some tracks. Today it took me 3 tries to actually give Lethal AI 20 seconds on one of Orbital Prime tracks, just because of idiotic track design where i being literally launched into space from pads.
I agree that for casuals this game is closed door from the beginning because AI is literally unforgiving, track design is complex and overall difficulty is too high. However when you get used to it there is nothing more to do, just pointlessly race on favorite tracks or go online.
My point here is that OP is complaining about mysterious auto pilot etc and overall points that this game is too easy for him, so i suggested to ramp up difficulty. IMO i never experienced any auto pilot, because i driving Phantom most of the time and on high speed straights you get "idle sway", one wrong turn and you spinning out. Also i finding what OP calling "auto-pilot" pretty realistic, you going ~One Mach, this is faster than bullet (literally), its so fast that probably nothing can spin you out on straight course, its like... idk the same why motorcycle not falling when moving.

[Cies]

I prefer Rollcage because Rollcage I could play, Grip not = (
I like the look, music, sonds fx, but I don't like the gameplay, especially the moon gravity, the car flies fast but take ages to touch the floor, when it happens the last place is guaranteed, even Trackmania is easier to play .

[rutra80]

What I don't understand is why they don't add OPTIONS, especially that these things wouldn't be very hard to implement.
There are games like Worms Armageddon which can be played by 5yo kids, but there are options to create such insane modes that it becomes totally different game playable only by freaks.
So instead of pointless frogger mode why didn't they add widely demanded high acceleration mode? Why there's no slider for gravity? Why there's no tick to disable drive aids? These things could be hidden from casual players in some deep hidden menu accessible only after beating some insane achievement, but then us - freaks, would have options to stay entertained (even if sometimes driving would be bugged).

[Broscar]

If your girlfriend can comfortably get 1st place racing other people (or even just the elite AI) on Phantom (without the assists), I wouldn't exactly call her a casual ;p

Hey rutra, good to see you're still around. I don't know why they don't allow more stuff to be customizable. Personally I think it's because certain people have a vision of how their game should play and anything that doesn't fit in that vision is shunned.
Ironically I support that kind of thinking, even though I disagree with it in this instance.

[Nine Breaker]

Originally posted by rutra80:

What I don't understand is why they don't add OPTIONS, especially that these things wouldn't be very hard to implement.
There are games like Worms Armageddon which can be played by 5yo kids, but there are options to create such insane modes that it becomes totally different game playable only by freaks.
So instead of pointless frogger mode why didn't they add widely demanded high acceleration mode? Why there's no slider for gravity? Why there's no tick to disable drive aids? These things could be hidden from casual players in some deep hidden menu accessible only after beating some insane achievement, but then us - freaks, would have options to stay entertained (even if sometimes driving would be bugged).

Up. This can be very useful. Remove pointless frogger and add some fast acceleration or other stuff that can modify gameplay. It can be unlocked by hitting lvlcap or getting all ingame achievements.

[rutra80]

Hi there Broscar : ) Yeah mob shall be ruled with iron fist :)) But only as long as the ruling is good. If effects are mediocre then a wise king reaches out for consulting and implements good outside ideas...

Anyway, after some time without playing and recent patching I gotta admit that wipeoutish Rogue and Ictus on max power feel quite rollcageish and I do enjoy them :)

[Joshua Schmalle]

I really couldn't care about the rhetoric regarding how shallow the game is, however the mysterious autopilot you speak of does not exist.

There are no steering assists. The only thing that I would think of being an assist(I thought it was for the longest time) is how the cars correct themselves out of a spin and face forward.

However not even this is a assist, this has to do with the big rocket on the back pushing the vehicle towards its forwards vector, and due to how only the front wheels turn this also makes it so the spins also make it so you face forwards. This happens with real cars too. GRIPS physics are very realistic.

I also read on a regular basis about the cars "falling slow". This has to do with how gravity works. Regardless of mass, all objects fall at a constant rate if there was no air resistance. Grip cars are around 2.5-3x bigger then a normal car, and can launch themselves hundreds(some tracks thousands) of feet into the air, so its only natural that the cars take a significant amount of time to land. In most other racing games you potentially can get a maximum of 20 feet in the air if you can even get hang time.

The point of the easy tracks are to not have any dead stops so newer players do not get discouraged. The easy tracks are essentially tubes, so I am not surprised you needed no steering inputs to complete a lap, I think that should be common sense considering the track difficulty.

However, considering most tracks above easy have hairpins and highly technical turns that the cars clearly do not autodrive through, I find it amusing you think somehow the vehicles autodrive. The only apparent autodriving would be the cars correcting themselves out of a spin and facing forwards, which I explained above is a byproduct of the physics. The cars have no steering helper.

By the way, rollcages physics were not "realistic" like you claim in any capacity. There was a very primitive tire slip model, no gearing, barely any suspension etc. I have been working on a rollcage clone for a while so I have been wasting a decent amount of time studying rollcages physics. It is very difficult to try and get it right. It is def one of a kind

Cheers!

[rutra80]

Ok and who are you to tell? Because most of what you state feels wrong yet you try sounding like someone who knows.

[Joshua Schmalle]

Originally posted by rutra80:

Ok and who are you to tell? Because most of what you state feels wrong yet you try sounding like someone who knows.

I mean don't believe me all you want. I mean I don't think my post read as a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I do not write well articulated posts like that as a joke, I have better things to waste my time with.

If you would like I can point you to sources(regarding the real world physics) however if you're truly interested I would imagine you are capable of doing your own research.

My knowledge about this games physics are from previous discussions from devs, and from me having around 800 hours into this game across all consoles including pc.

Example post a post from the devs. This is explaining why the cars correct themselves while going straight.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/510791083903549455/578639930532560906/unknown.png

I really am not in the mood to dig through thousands of posts but I assure you I can probably be believed.

[Broscar]

Being able to steer a giant ass tank at 500 to 1200 kph at all just screams realistic physics, especially considering it's happening upside down with extremely aerodynamic square boxes.

I agree on there being no assists built-in.

You explain the airtime issue, but no one asked for an explanation. We all know why it happens and how it happens, we're discussing the gameplay ramifications.

muh no gearing in Rollcage etc.
Where's the moment of intertia for the tyres in GRIP? ;)

I respect your efforts for writing well articulated posts, but in essence you're just attempting to minimize gameplay issues a decent amount of people experience by explaining them away with faux realism.
"Well Mario shouldn't be able to jump on his floating hat in Odyssey because of Newton's third law"

[Borland]

Try your trick on any other track, and then let us know.

[Joshua Schmalle]

Originally posted by Broscar:

Being able to steer a giant ass tank at 500 to 1200 kph at all just screams realistic physics, especially considering it's happening upside down with extremely aerodynamic square boxes.

I agree on there being no assists built-in.

You explain the airtime issue, but no one asked for an explanation. We all know why it happens and how it happens, we're discussing the gameplay ramifications.

muh no gearing in Rollcage etc.
Where's the moment of intertia for the tyres in GRIP? ;)

I respect your efforts for writing well articulated posts, but in essence you're just attempting to minimize gameplay issues a decent amount of people experience by explaining them away with faux realism.
"Well Mario shouldn't be able to jump on his floating hat in Odyssey because of Newton's third law"

Of course I am minimizing gameplay issues with faux realism, considering Rob didn't write his own physics engine, he is constrained by UE4's implementation of nvidias Physx's engine, so I think its silly to keep beating this horse.

Rollcage's physics engine was totally custom, they even implemented collisions from scratch, rather then using rigidbody collisions like literally every other game. Pretty much every modern racing game uses the same physics engines, which is why literally every single arcade racing game these days feels pretty much the same, with the exception to kart racers, which have physics so ridiculously exaggerated frankly I don't have fun playing them(with the exception of 200cc mk and ctr).

So many issues in this game are never going to be solved due to the engine limitations. For instance if a car like this irl smashs into the ground at the speeds it does a decent amount of the energy of that collision would be dampened by the creation of a crater. This doesn't happen in UE4 obviously, so this is why you see the ridiculous bounces. Perhaps someday a solution to this will be found. There are so many variables that make this game unplayable that they can't help, and frankly I think its amazing that it plays as great as it does. This game is certainly a technical feat.