Pick-up Charging

[Bero]

I would prefer if pickup charging worked without speed penalty but instead you wouldn't be able to keep more powerful version of pickup more than 2-3 seconds after it is fully charged. When you release the button it would activate.

BTW what's with charged version of ram raider? It doesn't resemble normal version of that pickup at all.

[Wolfbiker]

Originally posted by Chris@CE:

There are a couple polls about pickup charging that may interest you guys.

http://www.strawpoll.me/14610138

http://www.strawpoll.me/14610171

;)

Keeping the charged version for only a few seconds has been suggested before (I think). I do not like the idea and want to keep the charged weapon throughout the race, but that's just my opinion.

Charged Ram Raider pushes the enemy off the track without doing any damage, just like the normal Ram Raider. The needed distance is the main difference.

[Queadah]

Would be for killing the speed penalty as well, but would rather you keep the item you charged really

[Bero]

Originally posted by Queadah:

Would be for killing the speed penalty as well, but would rather you keep the item you charged really

What's the trade-off then?
In my suggestion you have normal weapon which is easy to use because it can be activated immediately and advanced one which is harder to use and more likely to fail than the first one but also more powerful and effective if it succeeds.
I think that's a good trade-off.
Absorbing second pickup (like poll suggests) would just make people using more powerful weapons almost all time I think. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my prediction.

[Queadah]

Originally posted by Bero:

What's the trade-off then?

This is my answer to you in ONE single image:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1254960807&fileuploadsuccess=1
In few words: penalty is embedded in the mechanics since the "absorbed" pickup's functionality is lost to you.

Originally posted by Bero:

Absorbing second pickup (like poll suggests) would just make people using more powerful weapons almost all time I think. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my prediction.

No. You'd make people weight in using 2 items or 1 upgraded item.

Originally posted by Queadah:

Full dissection

Pros

• It requires "something for something" and not "nothing for something" (just holding input)
  
• It stands on its own (compared to tying it to nitro)
  
• Balancing nightmare is reduced:
  - Feature spam is mitigated (using 2 slots to have 1 item - e.g. less missile spam)
  - Feature overpower mitigated (you can charge only 1 slot since with 2 slots the best
  you can get is a charged item and a normal one)
  
• Leaves the driving unhindered
  
• Elevates the importance of getting a pickup!

Cons

• Limits weapon "upgrade" to your ability to actually have 2 powerups at a given time (which sounds... fine - part of the self balance)
  
• Makes only 1 weapon available (albeit a "better one) when you had 2 before the "charge" (again, it's pretty much self balancing)
  
• Works in Time Trial when pickups enabled (which can be... fine - I mean, you get charged turbo with 2 turbos, no harm done to that mode)

[Bero]

It's easy to get a new pickup when you absorb one.

[playabot]

You know what, I just looked at the great pictures befor but missed the substance of your post... you're proposing that you can't absorb all weapons, only compatible ones! I like this and it may solve a lot of the gripes that I have with the system as it is currently. I would go one further and suggest that some weapons can't be charged (ones that are already op or ones that don't have a logical upgrade function or are already very effective in terms of their impact on the pack i.e disruptor). We would need to discuss the logic of how this works i.e. what binds with what, like you've mentioned... I'm still a weapon charge sceptic but this is the right kind of depth and will possibly help to balance the system. Brilliant.

[Queadah]

Originally posted by Bero:

It's easy to get a new pickup when you absorb one.

Let's compare, in my scenario:

• You need to have at least 2 items in your slots
  
• Colors must also match (for instance - here, green with green, red with red pickups)

In your scenario, you can charge right away with no requirement, so I return the comment, in your case, 'It's easy to get a new pickup when you just have to press an input"

@playabot: absorbing for shield (dtap) could bring its health back a little? A simple tap when shield is in its slot could use it, then tap again to flip it to front. Shield needs to always occupy a slot when active for that matter (which is fine, it counterbalances its rechargable nature).
Then hold to drop (just like all other items? - for team play capacity and pass along items)

[Bero]

Yes you can charge right away in my scenario but you are more likely to miss because you need time to charge and you can't keep the weapon. You have to use it.
Your method would also remove some of the randomness in getting pickups which was, in my opinion, one of the essential things that characterized Rollcage games.

[Queadah]

mmh... how would randomness be removed? And how your scenario would be different? (honest question)

[playabot]

Originally posted by Bero:

Yes you can charge right away in my scenario but you are more likely to miss because you need time to charge and you can't keep the weapon. You have to use it.
Your method would also remove some of the randomness in getting pickups which was, in my opinion, one of the essential things that characterized Rollcage games.

I'm not sure I'd be cool with a 2-3 second window because it wouldn't balance all weapons in the same way. So in the sense that, leader missile, boost, shield wouldn't necessarily be impacted, were as missiles and hydra may be rendered entirely useless because of their more situational nature.

@Quead, I like your suggestion because it potentially restricts the broadness of the current implementation and its relative ease of use for what you get; sometimes an exponential increase in power! You can't just hold down a button at any point with any weapon - and all this without messing with speed.

As for the effect that the charge should have? .. should it change the weapons function, make it 2 or 3 times more powerful, or simply increase power by a standard percentage...

My preference would be to increase power by a percentage and not to change the weapon function at all. So like you said @Bero the Ramraider's second function is too different.And I feel it could be a new weapon in its own right i.e. a railgun.

And Bero, I get where you're coming from too - in my perfect world you would collect a weapon based on odds associated to your position in the race just like RC1 like that 'randomness' that you mention (hope I'm interpreting that right). You get what you get, hold it or use it, its effective, its easy to read. No fuss. But I think charging (in whatever form) is pretty much a given and considered part of the lineage because of its appearance in RC2.

[Bero]

Queadah in your method randomness is partly reduced because you get to choose which weapon you want to keep. For example if your method gets implemented in track like Speedbowl everyone would trade every pickup for boost. Skilled players would use this in all maps creating even wider gap between them and others. That is not what this game is about. In this game you need combination of skill and luck to win. I think by implementing your method some of that luck component will be lost.
playabot charging time can be optimized to be different for each weapon.

[Cies]

i think charge in a game that needs attention in the car control since it is in high speed every time does not suit very well, better if the power up stack 3 or 4 times to have a better version, os something like that, i dont like to run with a extra button pressed, maybe im using my controller wrong, i accelerate and breake with index fingers, I find it uncomfortable to use the middle fingers, no joke.

[Bero]

I use index fingers for accelerating / braking too and right bumper is for boost. That's why I suggested option for just tapping boost button to use it. It's bit uncomfortable but I can get used to it if I have to.

[playabot]

The button lay out I use (because I think it’s a winner);

I use a PS4 controller.

Accel with X.

Weapon 1 with L2.

Weapon 2 with R2.

Boost with L1.

Launch with R1.

Break with square.

Camera out with triangle.

Missile lock/target swap with up on D pad.

Those are the important ones…

For a game of this style – I think your fingers are kept pretty busy regardless and some things could go i.e. slow-mo and camera should be on one button (cycle camera position rather than zoom and lift)…

@Bero re randomness. Whatever system of charging is implemented players will use it to their advantage and it will exacerbated skill advantages and deficiencies. For me Queads suggestion will help to limit the abuse of the system. It lessens the turnover of charged versions and isn’t too easy to pull off as not everything will charge all the time… some limits can be put in place to keep things in a sweet spot. But like I say the purest implementation would be just to have effective base weapons period.

As for optimising charging times, still I’m not sure this is the best solution as it messes with the readability and predictability of things. But sure it could be part of the system – the devs could look at charge time, weapon warm up time befor firing and cool down after firing and these could be increased along with any increase in power.

But for me the system should support the themes of speed, responsiveness and recovery. A ‘slow’ or ‘unresponsive’ weapons system has no place in a ‘fast’ game; the two ideas work counter to each other.

[Queadah]

Originally posted by Bero:

Queadah in your method randomness is partly reduced because you get to choose which weapon you want to keep.

Pickup randomness comes from the spawn mechanics.

• You pick something,
  
• It turns out to be [whatever]

Then regardless of the charging method, you "upgrade" your pickup. This doesn't change randomness at all.

Originally posted by Bero:

For example if your method gets implemented in track like Speedbowl everyone would trade every pickup for boost.

In my .gif, I only drew a speedboost for example's sake. You confused it with a "turn everything into a boost" ;)
You would have to pick a firestorm 1st to charge it. But that's true of your method too so...