Problems with Breath of Winter campaign

[Aotrs Commander]

So After a looong time, I decided to come back to Spellforce 1 (I'd picked it up for a couple of quid on GoG, actually, to save aresing about installing it from disk). Last time I played, I just did the main campaign and order of the Phoenix, so I thought I'd to the BoW campaign this time.

I am finding it inordinately hard (and tedious).

I started out trying to do paladin (Heavy Combat, Heavy Blade, Heavy Armour, Shield and some White Magic) and after dying repeatedly (especially when I got to Frostall, trying to clear the map before ti started). In the end, I found a respec mod, had to go look up (as, y'know, I recall that being touted as strong build and almost all the guides say "go fighter, it's easy!") what I was doing wrong - very little, actually. I shifted around a little bit and to focus more on White Magic (thorns/strength aura) instead of heavy armour/weapons (with 2 points in Light Combat and WOW the single target damage and heal is SO much better than the heavy ones, I'm amazed the walkthroughs didn't mention that). That actually enabled me to not be completely unable to fight more than one enemy and only just barely win against one. (I have found frack-all geat for heavy armour and shields at that point.)

I have been waiting for a point to actually do some farming (as the game has not yet seen fit to ever give me any fracking towers), but it seems that you just don't get them in the first third of the game (if ever). I was actually going to try on Frostfell, having carefully left one ogre camp. Lena had levelled to the other, because she went into follow-me mode when I left the map to go to the fortress place to trade the coins in (for gear that is now functionally useless to me having rebuilt, naturally...) and I discovered that if you reload the map for any reason, she doesn't stand there with the question mark on. So when I cleared the south camp, she levelled it. But it didn't work - the ogre didn't even shift from the spot until the orcs died and the imperial forces gave me no chance to do a bit of farming before the level 18 heavies swamped the Elves.

I have got through to Tirganach and basically hit a wall - the trolls you have to get past are impossible to kill (they took out the paltry numpties that are my current rune soldiers in SECONDS) and I was really struggling to fight ANYTHING on that map.

(It is only NOW that I am finding out that death costs you XP - if it said that anywhere, I don't recall. (Hell, I only just found out there IS an attack-move (and I specifically looked for it in the maunal.) Which is really bad, considering that I've been eating a few deaths on the basis that reloading resets the fog or war, which I took to be punishment enough to prefer the tiresome job of running back from the bind-stone. Wrongly, apparently.)

I'm currently 75% of the way to level 12, and desperately trying to do the side-quests in Frostfell and maybe Mirraw Thur to get a level or two or something so I can get somewhere to get some XP.

This whole campaign doesn't feel fun at all, it feels like it's specifically designed to be a "gotcha" where if you're not following a walkthrough EXACTLY, you get completely screwed into a death spiral. (And "haha, you liked base building, well, you're not having that this time!")

Help?

(It is just me of is this campaign, like, the most punatively designed out of all of the Spellforce campaigns? (Well, I can't speak to the SF2 later expansions nor that most recent SF3 ones, since I've not played them, but certainly out of the rest). I know it's been a while since I played, but I really don't remember Order of Dawn being so utterly frustrating.)


Edit: And on a whim, checked and found a mod that saves the fog of war on a reload. Well, that's ONE massive pain out of the way...!

[Farlon]

You're on the defense in the Frostfall, you're meant to gather resources as fast as possible and defend the refugees.
For the Tirganach, you are not meant to kill the Trolls, you're meant to trick them into attacking the skeletons, gifting you some goodies, and then attacking the elves. You will have tons of opportunities to farm but this is not yet the time for it. Also, I personally never found it difficult, imo it's rather easy and the more pleasant campaign but it feels boring until you reach Frostfall.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally posted by Farlon:

You're on the defense in the Frostfall, you're meant to gather resources as fast as possible and defend the refugees.

So, much, as they say, was obvious - though the guide I was looking at (I had reached the point I was checking the FAQ while doing the map instead of after at that stage...) suggested you could farm for a bit if you didn't trigger the western imperials or something, but that never seemed to be a thing.

Originally posted by Farlon:

You will have tons of opportunities to farm but this is not yet the time for it. Also, I personally never found it difficult, imo it's rather easy and the more pleasant campaign but it feels boring until you reach Frostfall.

Well, that's something, at least.

Originally posted by Farlon:

Also, I personally never found it difficult, imo it's rather easy and the more pleasant campaign but it feels boring until you reach Frostfall.

The RTS portion has not been particularly difficult, not even Frostfall, really - certainly won't be now I can reload without worrying about the fog of war coming back now; it's the character-only portions that are giving me all the trouble and repeated deaths. (Honestly, I always said SF1 was a better RTS than RPG, something which was inverted, I felt in the to later games.)

I am now very very slowly farming on Frostfall. Can't dare move to get the elves, since right next to the monument is where all the level 18 heavies are, but between ogres and the trickle of rienforcements of the the imperials, I can just about hold with the remnents of the elf units and the orcs, which might build me up a little more XP - I definitely feel well behind the curve.

[janthailand]

the trolls go to worship big mugwa in their camp during night time,
so i just slip through during night, and then when im lv 16 or so i ask for the gift through the speaker at the back of the altar, and then i make myself seen and kill them.

the modded maps here adds a lot of experience with extra monsters, and the first map has extra merchants that also sell all kinds of equipment, it makes farming unnecessary https://steamcommunity.com/app/39540/discussions/0/2798377275383394922/

[Aotrs Commander]

Bit late for modding the maps I think.

Well, 35 Totems didn't even scratch the first one of the level 20 werewolves I'm supposed to kill (and after much effort kiting the minions to be killed one by one), which means a long run back to Tirganach (WHY is there not a bind stone there?!) to buy the max level orc workers I can find and try again. (I managed to kill level 20 things before with the low level sorcerers and stuff...?)

[janthailand]

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

Bit late for modding the maps I think.

Well, 35 Totems didn't even scratch the first one of the level 20 werewolves I'm supposed to kill (and after much effort kiting the minions to be killed one by one), which means a long run back to Tirganach (WHY is there not a bind stone there?!) to buy the max level orc workers I can find and try again. (I managed to kill level 20 things before with the low level sorcerers and stuff...?)

what map are you on now ?
maybe the map you failed on and/or next map has a ferryman modded into it,
that single monster will add close to 2 levels,
i made the maps specifically to make it possible to solo without any farming
and still easily reach lv 30 by game end.
ed: you must change the map before you first enter it,
for the changes to take effect, cause the game has some sort of save memory

[Aotrs Commander]

I wouldn't mind the farming if at actually let me build some damn fortifications. I was actually rather looking fowards to being able to set a nice base up and sit back for a bit and watch stuff get shot down...

Okay, so 50 level *7* totems got me the werewolves in Frostfall.

So, back at Tirganach, tried making the trolls attack something. I was kind of expecting them to do more than just destroy a group of respawning skeletons once. Which then proceeded to cream my party when I go there. I managed to get one killed, seperated from the others, but gave up and sent the others to die against the elves - no XP, I fear, bu they are at least out my way. I can try the undead pile again - at least I can safely get the heroes back now, but I think I may nearly be at a wall if I can't get past them (about all I can do if I can't break them is go try Ashgork's sidequest - else I guess it will be along and tedious job trying to farm said skeletons with the pants heroes I have until I can get some traction...)

Depending on how tedious it gets, I might take janthailand up on that modded map...

Edit: Okay, forgot my hero had switched to a magic spectre and was apparently doign paff-all damage. Switched back to the staff and I was able to knobble two of the spawning points and the heroes can comfortably hold the storm from the third while I DO sit here for a bit and gain some XP...

Edit edit: Well, I managed to at least farm for a bit before things went a bit south and Iost the on Warden that had somehow survived the intro. A bit of mopping up later and I did get through and...

MOTHERFRACKER! There IS an bindstone in the middle of the fragging city, it was just hidden out of obvious sight! I wasted SO MUCH TIME having to run to and fro from the one by the entry portal!

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally posted by janthailand:

what map are you on now ?
maybe the map you failed on and/or next map has a ferryman modded into it,
that single monster will add close to 2 levels,
i made the maps specifically to make it possible to solo without any farming
and still easily reach lv 30 by game end.
ed: you must change the map before you first enter it,
for the changes to take effect, cause the game has some sort of save memory

So, I tried your map mod before entering Winterdeep. Ran straight into a brick wall. The problem is, you've slapped an extra spawn point and a level 24 Ferry Keeper right on top of the only iron source on the map (or at least the only one I can get to). Which barely went off green slaughtering me and my heroes (I onlu just hit level 15).

And, as the dwarves have no defensive fortifications (side note; I HATE the dwaf faction in SF1 solely exactly that reason), it means unless I can somehow managed to hold the enemy at bay long enough to create the top-end dwarf moonsilver only units and maybe take it out with those alone, I literally can't complete the map. I'm going to have one go at it (I backed up the maps AND a save from before I went into the map with your mod, so I have a fall-back position).

[janthailand]

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

Originally posted by janthailand:

what map are you on now ?
maybe the map you failed on and/or next map has a ferryman modded into it,
that single monster will add close to 2 levels,
i made the maps specifically to make it possible to solo without any farming
and still easily reach lv 30 by game end.
ed: you must change the map before you first enter it,
for the changes to take effect, cause the game has some sort of save memory

So, I tried your map mod before entering Winterdeep. Ran straight into a brick wall. The problem is, you've slapped an extra spawn point and a level 24 Ferry Keeper right on top of the only iron source on the map (or at least the only one I can get to). Which barely went off green slaughtering me and my heroes (I onlu just hit level 15).

And, as the dwarves have no defensive fortifications (side note; I HATE the dwaf faction in SF1 solely exactly that reason), it means unless I can somehow managed to hold the enemy at bay long enough to create the top-end dwarf moonsilver only units and maybe take it out with those alone, I literally can't complete the map. I'm going to have one go at it (I backed up the maps AND a save from before I went into the map with your mod, so I have a fall-back position).

the extra spawn doesnt actually spawn anything, it was just needed to hack the map.
on the ferryman, i equip my healer and aura healer with a ranged weapon that i can
buy on my 1st modded map in each campaign so they default to standing back in a support role
shooting feathers, and the range is equal to the aura of healing range,
and i beat the ferryman with my warriors supported by the healers,
and use the greater healing spell as needed on the fighter under attack.
i also buy a warrior from a merchant in the big elf city before this map.
you wont be able to buy that feather bow in this campaign, so next best thing is to select a healer and press H which means stand still on hold command, and then select follow, so the healer will just follow someone else but never advance.
i admit its a bit steep but the avatar is at this stage falling behind in exp so a bump is needed

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally posted by janthailand:

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

So, I tried your map mod before entering Winterdeep. Ran straight into a brick wall. The problem is, you've slapped an extra spawn point and a level 24 Ferry Keeper right on top of the only iron source on the map (or at least the only one I can get to). Which barely went off green slaughtering me and my heroes (I onlu just hit level 15).

And, as the dwarves have no defensive fortifications (side note; I HATE the dwaf faction in SF1 solely exactly that reason), it means unless I can somehow managed to hold the enemy at bay long enough to create the top-end dwarf moonsilver only units and maybe take it out with those alone, I literally can't complete the map. I'm going to have one go at it (I backed up the maps AND a save from before I went into the map with your mod, so I have a fall-back position).

the extra spawn doesnt actually spawn anything, it was just needed to hack the map.
on the ferryman, i equip my healer and aura healer with a ranged weapon that i can
buy on my 1st modded map in each campaign so they default to standing back in a support role
shooting feathers, and the range is equal to the aura of healing range,
and i beat the ferryman with my warriors supported by the healers,
and use the greater healing spell as needed on the fighter under attack.
i also buy a warrior from a merchant in the big elf city before this map.
you wont be able to buy that feather bow in this campaign, so next best thing is to select a healer and press H which means stand still on hold command, and then select follow, so the healer will just follow someone else but never advance.
i admit its a bit steep but the avatar is at this stage falling behind in exp so a bump is needed

Not having access to anything like that (nor did it matter, it was killing my team in 2-3 blows anyway), I managed to hold off the approaching skeletons with the heroes just long enough to get a steady stream of Elites and a sprinkling of Eldars. Then when I had about just over 40 troops, I sent them down and they mostly died horribly - of course only 8 of them could fight it at once, with my one archer and not-very good casters lobbing spells from the middle distance - but just lasted long enough to kill it with about 80% casualties. (My avatar, being a melee/paladin type - no decent Hallow spell on hand, of course - stayed well out of it.)

(I realised the spawn point didn't do anything when it didn't spawn anything while I was building up and then killed the keeper and levelled the building.)

I can now at least replenish my losses and get some defenders (and the titan) so clearing the map should be compartively easy, and at least I have levelled up significantly now. (Would have been better, I think, to have placed that up around the corner (maybe just past where Winterfist was - sure, he might gotten in the way of doing the side quest to start with. but I think that'd be better than locking out 75% of the dwarves' tech tree; but I managed in the end, I suppose, so there's that.

[janthailand]

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

Originally posted by janthailand:

the extra spawn doesnt actually spawn anything, it was just needed to hack the map.
on the ferryman, i equip my healer and aura healer with a ranged weapon that i can
buy on my 1st modded map in each campaign so they default to standing back in a support role
shooting feathers, and the range is equal to the aura of healing range,
and i beat the ferryman with my warriors supported by the healers,
and use the greater healing spell as needed on the fighter under attack.
i also buy a warrior from a merchant in the big elf city before this map.
you wont be able to buy that feather bow in this campaign, so next best thing is to select a healer and press H which means stand still on hold command, and then select follow, so the healer will just follow someone else but never advance.
i admit its a bit steep but the avatar is at this stage falling behind in exp so a bump is needed

Not having access to anything like that (nor did it matter, it was killing my team in 2-3 blows anyway), I managed to hold off the approaching skeletons with the heroes just long enough to get a steady stream of Elites and a sprinkling of Eldars. Then when I had about just over 40 troops, I sent them down and they mostly died horribly - of course only 8 of them could fight it at once, with my one archer and not-very good casters lobbing spells from the middle distance - but just lasted long enough to kill it with about 80% casualties. (My avatar, being a melee/paladin type - no decent Hallow spell on hand, of course - stayed well out of it.)

(I realised the spawn point didn't do anything when it didn't spawn anything while I was building up and then killed the keeper and levelled the building.)

I can now at least replenish my losses and get some defenders (and the titan) so clearing the map should be compartively easy, and at least I have levelled up significantly now. (Would have been better, I think, to have placed that up around the corner (maybe just past where Winterfist was - sure, he might gotten in the way of doing the side quest to start with. but I think that'd be better than locking out 75% of the dwarves' tech tree; but I managed in the end, I suppose, so there's that.

ok, if i play as a warrior avatar, i always use myself as a tank since i am by far and away more sturdy then any hero, and just heal as needed to stay in the fight, i dont think i could beat him with an army, i would never attempt to use an lv 8 army on him. if i play as a mage i would use the warrior from the merchant in tirgenach as tank, i make sure my strongest party member goes in first to become the target, that i can heal in a timely manner.
have you made sure you got the aura healer in your team at this point ?
its a male lv 13 i think, and he can use a set of armor that has a buff

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally posted by janthailand:

ok, if i play as a warrior avatar, i always use myself as a tank since i am by far and away more sturdy then any hero, and just heal as needed to stay in the fight, i dont think i could beat him with an army, i would never attempt to use an lv 8 army on him. if i play as a mage i would use the warrior from the merchant in tirgenach as tank, i make sure my strongest party member goes in first to become the target, that i can heal in a timely manner.
have you made sure you got the aura healer in your team at this point ?
its a male lv 11 or 13 i think, and he can use a set of armor that has a buff

If it's Preist Navid (at level 11) with regen aura, then yes, even with the Efficient Aura set on - but he still runs out of mana awful fast with that on. Plus the problem was the ferry keeper was simply killing everyone in two or three blows (like 60-90 damage per hit) so they were pretty much pureéd before they could deal any damage - it was dealing damage faster than any of my available options were able to get it back (hell, nearly faster than I could keep up with clicking on the spells, I think.)

(Entirely possible RNG shafted me on decent gear as well, of course, though I have been particularly unimpressed with most of the heroes throughout anyway...)

It's apparently quite take-able with a level 8 army - but I suspect I'd have done it better if I had had ANY ranged troops at all (because of course the only one the dwarves get requires the iron he's guarding). It just meant it lot of sitting around twiddling my thumbs while slowly slowly the moonsilver built up (plus side - allowed the elites to level-up a bit, which might have helped), and meant that the about 20-30 spare workers got the exciting task of defending the base (with avatar), while the rest attacked the ferry keeper.

So that's worth bearing in mind if anyone has the same concerns - it is possible to dig under that wall, but it requires some patience.

[janthailand]

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

Originally posted by janthailand:

ok, if i play as a warrior avatar, i always use myself as a tank since i am by far and away more sturdy then any hero, and just heal as needed to stay in the fight, i dont think i could beat him with an army, i would never attempt to use an lv 8 army on him. if i play as a mage i would use the warrior from the merchant in tirgenach as tank, i make sure my strongest party member goes in first to become the target, that i can heal in a timely manner.
have you made sure you got the aura healer in your team at this point ?
its a male lv 11 or 13 i think, and he can use a set of armor that has a buff

If it's Preist Navid (at level 11) with regen aura, then yes, even with the Efficient Aura set on - but he still runs out of mana awful fast with that on. Plus the problem was the ferry keeper was simply killing everyone in two or three blows (like 60-90 damage per hit) so they were pretty much pureéd before they could deal any damage - it was dealing damage faster than any of my available options were able to get it back (hell, nearly faster than I could keep up with clicking on the spells, I think.)

(Entirely possible RNG shafted me on decent gear as well, of course, though I have been particularly unimpressed with most of the heroes throughout anyway...)

It's apparently quite take-able with a level 8 army - but I suspect I'd have done it better if I had had ANY ranged troops at all (because of course the only one the dwarves get requires the iron he's guarding). It just meant it lot of sitting around twiddling my thumbs while slowly slowly the moonsilver built up (plus side - allowed the elites to level-up a bit, which might have helped), and meant that the about 20-30 spare workers got the exciting task of defending the base (with avatar), while the rest attacked the ferry keeper.

So that's worth bearing in mind if anyone has the same concerns - it is possible to dig under that wall, but it requires some patience.

no, not the regeneration guy, its the next guy with aura of healing,
if i remember well his rune is in west tigenach undead camp,
or possibly it was in north east near the portal to this map.
i use that aura healing guy and another healer with great healing, and the sturdiest warriors i can get my hands on.
heavy combat guys are much preferable to fighters, and they can wear good armor earlier
without needing armor skill, just base HC 4 suffice to wear a chest plate with 50 armor,
and base 6 enough for even better chest and pants.
archers would be totally worthless against ferryman.
there are quite a few useful merchants in tirgenach, both for armor and heroes, you need to shop around to find the good stuff,
look for brown chest plates and silver pants.
for next campaign, get the first map that has specialized merchants with names like merchant pants, so you can see all the pants and their stats in one place, likewise for all the magic scrolls and all other equipment

[Aotrs Commander]

Ah. Nope, don't have that one (on looking it up). Double ah, he's ranged, too, which will have rather help on keeping him out of the way, unlike Navid.

I think therein lies the problem that I was simply too low level to be able to *get* to the decent rune warriors. I had not attempted the western Undead camp in Tigenach; the walkthrough I looked implied it was tough and I was already struggling, so it likely would have been beyond me until now. Actually, there is probably a good chance I couldn't have used that one even if I'd gotten him yet because of the level requirements, given he's level 13 and I was only 15.

Even now I'm level 18, the majority of the gear from that last map is well above the level of the rune warriors I have, even having done some trading in now. I've currently got the blade minion, Gultark and a couple of warriors who should be a bit sturdier, hopefully.

(Too many of the rune warriors I seem to have come across have been warlocks and they have been almost totally useless... Looking at the wiki - I should have thought to do a look earlier, it's much easier to actually see what abilities they have without arsing about - the only warlock that I might have found actually useful was one dropped on that map just, and Gultark is better than her, his Death was actually doing something useful on occasion...)

I will have a look around Tigenach tomorrow and see if I can grab that next priest to replace the current one. (Also, actually having all five rune warriors makes a difference, I only had four open slots at the start of that map at level 15!)

So, I think the problem really was that I was almost too low level, so behind that even your mod was nearly too late to pull me out of the death spiral. I think that kind of shows Breath of Winter is rather unfriendly to doing it blind, given that I'm, what 25 hours plus into the game and it's not let me have any defences yet (and so is punishing at low-level where it that does the most damage).

Hopefully, though, I'm over the worst of that hump now, though - it might have taken a bit of patience to knobble the ferry keeper, but it did give me, like 2.5 levels or something.

[janthailand]

Originally posted by Aotrs Commander:

Ah. Nope, don't have that one (on looking it up). Double ah, he's ranged, too, which will have rather help on keeping him out of the way, unlike Navid.

I think therein lies the problem that I was simply too low level to be able to *get* to the decent rune warriors. I had not attempted the western Undead camp in Tigenach; the walkthrough I looked implied it was tough and I was already struggling, so it likely would have been beyond me until now. Actually, there is probably a good chance I couldn't have used that one even if I'd gotten him yet because of the level requirements, given he's level 13 and I was only 15.

Even now I'm level 18, the majority of the gear from that last map is well above the level of the rune warriors I have, even having done some trading in now. I've currently got the blade minion, Gultark and a couple of warriors who should be a bit sturdier, hopefully.

(Too many of the rune warriors I seem to have come across have been warlocks and they have been almost totally useless... Looking at the wiki - I should have thought to do a look earlier, it's much easier to actually see what abilities they have without arsing about - the only warlock that I might have found actually useful was one dropped on that map just, and Gultark is better than her, his Death was actually doing something useful on occasion...)

I will have a look around Tigenach tomorrow and see if I can grab that next priest to replace the current one. (Also, actually having all five rune warriors makes a difference, I only had four open slots at the start of that map at level 15!)

So, I think the problem really was that I was almost too low level, so behind that even your mod was nearly too late to pull me out of the death spiral. I think that kind of shows Breath of Winter is rather unfriendly to doing it blind, given that I'm, what 25 hours plus into the game and it's not let me have any defences yet (and so is punishing at low-level where it that does the most damage).

Hopefully, though, I'm over the worst of that hump now, though - it might have taken a bit of patience to knobble the ferry keeper, but it did give me, like 2.5 levels or something.

ok, next map will have 2 more ferryman so that will get you up to snuff,
i suggest stash the original maps somewhere where the sun dont shine and replace them all with mine, they all either add merchants or experience, the first map and the dark elf city add merchants, and the money to buy spells, (loot chests and sell stuff) and the rest add experience

[Aotrs Commander]

I have done. Though, as you say, once the map gets loaded for the first time it doea save at the state it was, unfortunately; so without redoing 25 hours, it won't add in the stuff to the early maps. I'll cope, I think, from this point.