combat is dumb as ****

[Wuzerd]

HECK NAW! how did they think this is okay? even with the community patch this ♥♥♥♥ is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ as ♥♥♥♥! it plays like ♥♥♥♥♥♥ modern mmo. G1G2 combat was bad/tolerable but this is a whole nother level of pancaketittery!

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Tell more! What exactly do you refer to? The prologue fight where you are supposed to click through because the nameless hero cannot die (unless if playing on the harder modes) and can only be knocked out? Or melee combat with stun-locking in general that make button mashing possible? Ranged combat is okay and a preferred choice in the beginning. And magic is where the game shines.

[Oneeyed]

First this game shines when you play it for exploration, the beautifully handcrafted game world, doing stupid funny quests, listen to the dialogues and dont play it for one side but play all the sides and have fun being an a$$hole and just outright betray everyone.

I think this is how it is meant to play. And that is the reason you can first free a town and get a quest success for it and rebel reputation. And after that burn out the rebel camp who wanted you to free the town and you get a quest success and orc reputation also.

Playing it this way I always have a blast playing Gothic 3.

But to be fair the melee combat is outright horrible. Without alternative AI you can just everything dead click with left or right button mashing. With alternative AI its even worse because many enemies can just block until the end of time but the one behind the blocker can just hit through him and hurt you while you can't do anything about it.

Ranged is fun but especially in the beginning you run out of arrows pretty fast because the traders sell much too less arrows for killing the hordes of enemies you could kill. Ranged combat feels very rewarding and gave me the most fun, though

Magic is just stupid. Having a fireball which flies around corners meaning having a target lock on enemies makes the game so easy its not even fun but just a chore to play through. The only one who can hurt you are the undead priests or multiple shamans. The only challenge you have as a mage is getting your logistics for mana up and running means you have to increase you ancient knowledge to at least 250 and increase mana up to at least 600 or more and then learn mana regeneration. Because until you have that archieved you will constantly run out of mana and have make/buy mana potions or have to sleep somewhere.

The combat system has one really great advantage, though. Every average skyrim player can do it.

[Big Sneeze]

Its great fun once you get the hang of it and play a few hours. At the start you're going to struggle but by the 2nd town you visit, it's going to start to click.

[Macro Tofu]

The combat remains awful in ELEX, guess it's a weird tradition or something, so don't bother

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

The combat remains awful in ELEX, guess it's a weird tradition or something, so don't bother:lunar2019laughingpig:

Well the combat in all TES games is pretty horrible, too. Especially Skyrim combat which every 80 years old braindead can win without any effort is even worse than Gothic 3 combat.

The only one who really made a good combat system is CDP in Witcher 2 and 3, Mount and Blade and KCD.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

The combat remains awful in ELEX, guess it's a weird tradition or something, so don't bother

Well the combat in all TES games is pretty horrible, too. Especially Skyrim combat which every 80 years old braindead can win without any effort is even worse than Gothic 3 combat.

The only one who really made a good combat system is CDP in Witcher 2 and 3, Mount and Blade and KCD.

Nah, lots of fans of the dev compared ELEX with Skyrim, but Skyrim never forced players to play in a single style at early game. True, Skyrim's melee combat is bad too, but players have access to magic right away. In ELEX or any Pirahan Bytes game, however, players are forced to do melee combat for quite a long period before they could use magic, which amplified the flaw.

I personally don't get why Pirahan Bytes is so obsessed with this concept, it's clearly outdated in today's game. Gothic are partially okay as players can get magic if they are willing to do some grinding, Risen 1 is okay because the mage line is astonishing. The rest are just hot messes. So, in conclusion this concept is probably some weird tradition, you cannot call it a feature as it is awful.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

The combat remains awful in ELEX, guess it's a weird tradition or something, so don't bother:lunar2019laughingpig:

Combat works nicely. Even a melee only Jax is possible.

[Oneeyed]

In PB games you have to explore carefully, listen and read things. Otherwise you just made your character choice by your playstyle. If you play dumb you have to play a dumb melee fighter. If you play smart you have options. I love that concept!

PB dont force you to play melee. You can get a gun in Elex pretty quickly. But that means you have to explore or at least take all the dialogue options. Same goes for Risen 2/3. You get a gun at the start of the game if you talk to people and then look what they are selling. And the same goes for all the PB games except Gothic 1.

Having said that, I agree since Risen 2 their melee combat sucks. Even in the late game its just annoying that a monster can just knock you over. This hasnt any consequence really but its infuriating to me. And its the reason I dont play melee in any of their games since Risen 2.

Regarding what you call "outdated" is the reason for me to play their games. If they make games with "modern" game mechanics I would just not buy it. I am not interested in all that "modern" game mechanics which are just there so people can turn off their brain and dont have to practise at all. I love the games are sometimes hard and I would like them to be even harder. Especially the Risen series was way too easy for my taste.

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well the combat in all TES games is pretty horrible, too. Especially Skyrim combat which every 80 years old braindead can win without any effort is even worse than Gothic 3 combat.

The only one who really made a good combat system is CDP in Witcher 2 and 3, Mount and Blade and KCD.

Nah, lots of fans of the dev compared ELEX with Skyrim, but Skyrim never forced players to play in a single style at early game. True, Skyrim's melee combat is bad too, but players have access to magic right away. In ELEX or any Pirahan Bytes game, however, players are forced to do melee combat for quite a long period before they could use magic, which amplified the flaw.

I personally don't get why Pirahan Bytes is so obsessed with this concept, it's clearly outdated in today's game. Gothic are partially okay as players can get magic if they are willing to do some grinding, Risen 1 is okay because the mage line is astonishing. The rest are just hot messes. So, in conclusion this concept is probably some weird tradition, you cannot call it a feature as it is awful.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

The combat remains awful in ELEX, guess it's a weird tradition or something, so don't bother

Combat works nicely. Even a melee only Jax is possible.

Oh, quit the old blunt lie, PB could use more fans instead of fanatics that infested their community. The only thing in ELEX that had significant improvement in melee combat is the scavengers. They were the weakest minions in Gothic, yet after thousands of years of evolution, even the first scavenger in ELEX owned Jax like a baby. Just go search how many Jaxs got their asses "pecked," lol.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

In PB games you have to explore carefully, listen and read things. Otherwise you just made your character choice by your playstyle. If you play dumb you have to play a dumb melee fighter. If you play smart you have options. I love that concept!

PB dont force you to play melee. You can get a gun in Elex pretty quickly. But that means you have to explore or at least take all the dialogue options. Same goes for Risen 2/3. You get a gun at the start of the game if you talk to people and then look what they are selling. And the same goes for all the PB games except Gothic 1.

Having said that, I agree since Risen 2 their melee combat sucks. Even in the late game its just annoying that a monster can just knock you over. This hasnt any consequence really but its infuriating to me. And its the reason I dont play melee in any of their games since Risen 2.

Regarding what you call "outdated" is the reason for me to play their games. If they make games with "modern" game mechanics I would just not buy it. I am not interested in all that "modern" game mechanics which are just there so people can turn off their brain and dont have to practise at all. I love the games are sometimes hard and I would like them to be even harder. Especially the Risen series was way too easy for my taste.

The thing is, you can't play as a smart melee fighter, you are always a dump one unless you're willing to do some grinding, and if you do so, you are playing a thief instead of a fighter, which is also another problem in PB's game, no thieving no fast progress.

You are forced to play melee at the start of any PB's game. Surely you can prepare yourself a bit either by relying on companions or just running around town to town to get some necessities. I once ran across the world of ELEX to get those permanent boost potions and ingredients to make them, which eventually I managed to get the Learn-Fast-ELEX-Version at level 2. But these options, "explore carefully, listen and read things," are either another force-to-play style or self-spoiler, which spoil the fun of exploring in the first place. You might love it because it suits you, and it partially suits me as well, but to others, that's another case.

Concept is not mechanic. If you want to look for bad mechanics, look them in Risen 2/3. Any classic RPG should avoid the QTE system as it's for action games, and Risen 2/3 have tons of them and implemented them most horribly. The concept I'm talking about is the world concept of PB's game. The MCs of their games are always brunt guys with little choice of how players could play, and it leaves a wrong first impression to many new players. I've seen players complaining in ELEX forum that they could do nothing at early game and then got overwhelmed by PB's fanatics. This is not just because of their over-passionated fans, but also because they can't give any useful advice without spoiler either. It's not good for PB and their new games. So now they start to remake Gothic instead.

[Oneeyed]

Well first you start as a complete nobody without any skill at all in any PB game. You dont start as a melee fighter. Its just people then pick up a stick and use it. But nobody forces them to. They could just neglect the combat all together and go learn things.

Of course you have learn magic in order to use it. Of course you have to learn thieving skills before you become a thief. And you have to learn melee/ranged skills in order to become a fighter.

But at the start everyone with at least one arm can take a stick and use it as a melee weapon. That is why you have the impression everyone starts as a melee fighter.

Just dont use melee in the beginning, get to the next town and do no-combat quests and find out where you get the thing you really want to do. That is a big part about PB games. People just assume they have to do melee. But you can just avoid the fights until you are a mage or a ranged fighter.

For example in Risen 1 you can become a battle mage right from the start by just going to the first camp of the order. In Risen 2 you can buy your first gun at the first town, in Risen 3 you can just go to the mage's island and become a mage and they even teach you guns. Same goes for Elex. You can just go to the outlaws or the clerics right from the start. Nothing is stopping you. But people assume things and then think their assumptions are the only truth.

And why do you think you have to steal? In all of their games you can just learn skills which makes you money like the hunting skills or the crafting. And you get money as a quest reward also. So if you dont want to steal you get more than enough money in every PB game.

And its really easy if you play with open eyes and put your assumptions aside. If some people dont like this then so be it. Not every game is for everyone.

That is exactly why modern games mostly suck. They try to please everyone instead of focussing to their target group.

Regarding QTEs. I dont like them but I dont care about them so much as long as its just sometimes. Risen 2 had only a few for avoiding traps and in Risen 3 they are even more scarce. Besides Witcher 2 had them too and it was great RPG.

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

In PB games you have to explore carefully, listen and read things. Otherwise you just made your character choice by your playstyle. If you play dumb you have to play a dumb melee fighter. If you play smart you have options. I love that concept!

PB dont force you to play melee. You can get a gun in Elex pretty quickly. But that means you have to explore or at least take all the dialogue options. Same goes for Risen 2/3. You get a gun at the start of the game if you talk to people and then look what they are selling. And the same goes for all the PB games except Gothic 1.

Having said that, I agree since Risen 2 their melee combat sucks. Even in the late game its just annoying that a monster can just knock you over. This hasnt any consequence really but its infuriating to me. And its the reason I dont play melee in any of their games since Risen 2.

Regarding what you call "outdated" is the reason for me to play their games. If they make games with "modern" game mechanics I would just not buy it. I am not interested in all that "modern" game mechanics which are just there so people can turn off their brain and dont have to practise at all. I love the games are sometimes hard and I would like them to be even harder. Especially the Risen series was way too easy for my taste.

The thing is, you can't play as a smart melee fighter, you are always a dump one unless you're willing to do some grinding, and if you do so, you are playing a thief instead of a fighter, which is also another problem in PB's game, no thieving no fast progress.

You are forced to play melee at the start of any PB's game. Surely you can prepare yourself a bit either by relying on companions or just running around town to town to get some necessities. I once ran across the world of ELEX to get those permanent boost potions and ingredients to make them, which eventually I managed to get the Learn-Fast-ELEX-Version at level 2. But these options, "explore carefully, listen and read things," are either another force-to-play style or self-spoiler, which spoil the fun of exploring in the first place. You might love it because it suits you, and it partially suits me as well, but to others, that's another case.

Concept is not mechanic. If you want to look for bad mechanics, look them in Risen 2/3. Any classic RPG should avoid the QTE system as it's for action games, and Risen 2/3 have tons of them and implemented them most horribly. The concept I'm talking about is the world concept of PB's game. The MCs of their games are always brunt guys with little choice of how players could play, and it leaves a wrong first impression to many new players. I've seen players complaining in ELEX forum that they could do nothing at early game and then got overwhelmed by PB's fanatics. This is not just because of their over-passionated fans, but also because they can't give any useful advice without spoiler either. It's not good for PB and their new games. So now they start to remake Gothic instead.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well first you start as a complete nobody without any skill at all in any PB game. You dont start as a melee fighter. Its just people then pick up a stick and use it. But nobody forces them to. They could just neglect the combat all together and go learn things.

Of course you have learn magic in order to use it. Of course you have to learn thieving skills before you become a thief. And you have to learn melee/ranged skills in order to become a fighter.

But at the start everyone with at least one arm can take a stick and use it as a melee weapon. That is why you have the impression everyone starts as a melee fighter.

Just dont use melee in the beginning, get to the next town and do no-combat quests and find out where you get the thing you really want to do. That is a big part about PB games. People just assume they have to do melee. But you can just avoid the fights until you are a mage or a ranged fighter.

For example in Risen 1 you can become a battle mage right from the start by just going to the first camp of the order. In Risen 2 you can buy your first gun at the first town, in Risen 3 you can just go to the mage's island and become a mage and they even teach you guns. Same goes for Elex. You can just go to the outlaws or the clerics right from the start. Nothing is stopping you. But people assume things and then think their assumptions are the only truth.

And why do you think you have to steal? In all of their games you can just learn skills which makes you money like the hunting skills or the crafting. And you get money as a quest reward also. So if you dont want to steal you get more than enough money in every PB game.

And its really easy if you play with open eyes and put your assumptions aside. If some people dont like this then so be it. Not every game is for everyone.

That is exactly why modern games mostly suck. They try to please everyone instead of focussing to their target group.

Regarding QTEs. I dont like them but I dont care about them so much as long as its just sometimes. Risen 2 had only a few for avoiding traps and in Risen 3 they are even more scarce. Besides Witcher 2 had them too and it was great RPG.

If that's what dev intended, to avoid fighting at the beginning of their games, they should leave it in tutorials and tips. Instead, they give tutorials on how to fight in melee and left what they should have done to their fans. Even Outward did a better job of acknowledging and notifying players about early game difficulties. Melee combat in Outward is also clunky, but the complaints like "combat sucks" are way fewer than in ELEX.

Yes, you have to learn magic to use it. No, you don't have to learn thieving skills to be a thief and commit theft. The game stuffed everything (character concepts [just look at their biceps], tutorials, etc.) in front of players to suggest the MC is a melee fighter without letting them know the MC is actually a frail chicken, do you think it's the players' fault to "assume" to fight melee?

Your examples make people feel the game is such a breeze, but no, it is not. Get into a faction or buy essential equipment is one thing. Receive training is another thing. Training is exorbitant in PB's game. In Risen 3 players even have to spend extra minerals to get trained (ugh). Training eats away almost all the money players make in early to mid-game. And why players have to steal? They don't have to, yet stealing is the fastest way to make money; you must be a PB fan, why don't you do a calculation about, in Gothic 3, how many non-battle related quests you have to do to learn Summon Skeleton and how many time it costs? Wandering around in the game world looking for these quests is another kind of grind, and as I said before, it destroys the fun of exploring in the first place. Some players do love to explore, but they also like to explore a specific area thoughtfully before move on, and they got hinged, unable to enjoy the most successful part of PB's games.

You are unnecessarily avoiding the important and dwelling on the trivial. No one will refund any PB games at the moment, so the two more hours extension talk is unneeded. Lots of modern RPGs suck, but there are examples of being successful. Such as Spider, the dev that first made Bound by Flame, a game like Witcher 1, and it has pleasant atmospheres like Gothic, but many people gave it mixed reviews. Then they made Techomancer. Still mixed reviews, but they started to show potential and willing to make changes. Eventually, they made Greedfall, a game full of flaws, but its character concepts and voice acting are so impressive that it made them money and fame, and now they are hired, which this time they have a full budget to make new games. Looking back, Greedfall still used similar concepts as Spider's previous games, but the willingness to change some minor details let them succeed. Sure, you can say, oh I don't want anything to change, but PB could always have some extra money at their disposal, just like their game, money makes things better.

As of QTE, are you really going to compare the QTEs in Risen 2/3 with Witcher 2? In Risen 2, one-shot traps lay everywhere outside the first town, one miss click and they send you to loading screen. I'd say PB is good at making bad first impressions.

[Oneeyed]

No I didnt say its not intended to avoid fighting in the beginning. I just said its optional. Nobody forces you to fight melee in PB games. And thes games are for players who want to figure things out on their own without an AI nanny.

I am really glad there are still games without crappy tutorials who teach to play the game. I want to do it on my own, play around with that new toy which costed 50 bucks. Spending my evenings running around and do sh!t in the least optimal way just because its fun.

Games are toys to play with and not streamlined movies or books you consume once. The minute you think you "spend" time you doing it wrong. Playing is having fun and not waste time. That kind of thinking made the players feel bad when they had to do the most basic thing a human does all day: walking. Then they branded games where you had to travel between locations as "Walking simulators" as it would be bad to have to move between locations. So they invented stupid fast travel just so the dopamine addicts dont get bored a single second.

All the modern game mechanics are made so the degenerated people always feel rewarded despite even have achieved anything but just standing around. And yes Piranha Bytes fell for that crap too with instant quick travel and companions so the players can pick their noses while the AI is fighting itself. Just as did Spiders.

Greedfall is just the next example for a game that please dopamine addicts who cant achieve anything on their own: Companions who fight for you, pi$$ easy fights a 3 year old can do, pause for drinking healing potions, all moves have to look cool even if they are completely unrealistic and only super hero could do it. But thats how modern games are: you dont play a hero because that is not cool enough for the degenerated masses. You have to play a super hero.

And if the game doesnt have that it gets shunned as junky, outdated and makes a bad first impression.

Look that bad impression, that overcome the hard difficulty, people who just treat you as unimportant as you really are is the reason for me to play these games.

I want to play games that are harsh and unforgiving. Games where I feel I have achieved something after I had to put in hard work and skilled 50 hours and then are finally able to kill that monster over there which taunted me since the beginning of the game. I despise games which throw everything at my feet just for me existing.

Originally posted by Macro Tofu:

If that's what dev intended, to avoid fighting at the beginning of their games, they should leave it in tutorials and tips. Instead, they give tutorials on how to fight in melee and left what they should have done to their fans. Even Outward did a better job of acknowledging and notifying players about early game difficulties. Melee combat in Outward is also clunky, but the complaints like "combat sucks" are way fewer than in ELEX.

Yes, you have to learn magic to use it. No, you don't have to learn thieving skills to be a thief and commit theft. The game stuffed everything (character concepts [just look at their biceps], tutorials, etc.) in front of players to suggest the MC is a melee fighter without letting them know the MC is actually a frail chicken, do you think it's the players' fault to "assume" to fight melee?

Your examples make people feel the game is such a breeze, but no, it is not. Get into a faction or buy essential equipment is one thing. Receive training is another thing. Training is exorbitant in PB's game. In Risen 3 players even have to spend extra minerals to get trained (ugh). Training eats away almost all the money players make in early to mid-game. And why players have to steal? They don't have to, yet stealing is the fastest way to make money; you must be a PB fan, why don't you do a calculation about, in Gothic 3, how many non-battle related quests you have to do to learn Summon Skeleton and how many time it costs? Wandering around in the game world looking for these quests is another kind of grind, and as I said before, it destroys the fun of exploring in the first place. Some players do love to explore, but they also like to explore a specific area thoughtfully before move on, and they got hinged, unable to enjoy the most successful part of PB's games.

You are unnecessarily avoiding the important and dwelling on the trivial. No one will refund any PB games at the moment, so the two more hours extension talk is unneeded. Lots of modern RPGs suck, but there are examples of being successful. Such as Spider, the dev that first made Bound by Flame, a game like Witcher 1, and it has pleasant atmospheres like Gothic, but many people gave it mixed reviews. Then they made Techomancer. Still mixed reviews, but they started to show potential and willing to make changes. Eventually, they made Greedfall, a game full of flaws, but its character concepts and voice acting are so impressive that it made them money and fame, and now they are hired, which this time they have a full budget to make new games. Looking back, Greedfall still used similar concepts as Spider's previous games, but the willingness to change some minor details let them succeed. Sure, you can say, oh I don't want anything to change, but PB could always have some extra money at their disposal, just like their game, money makes things better.

As of QTE, are you really going to compare the QTEs in Risen 2/3 with Witcher 2? In Risen 2, one-shot traps lay everywhere outside the first town, one miss click and they send you to loading screen. I'd say PB is good at making bad first impressions.

[Macro Tofu]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

No I didnt say its not intended to avoid fighting in the beginning. I just said its optional. Nobody forces you to fight melee in PB games. And thes games are for players who want to figure things out on their own without an AI nanny.

I am really glad there are still games without crappy tutorials who teach to play the game. I want to do it on my own, play around with that new toy which costed 50 bucks. Spending my evenings running around and do sh!t in the least optimal way just because its fun.

Games are toys to play with and not streamlined movies or books you consume once. The minute you think you "spend" time you doing it wrong. Playing is having fun and not waste time. That kind of thinking made the players feel bad when they had to do the most basic thing a human does all day: walking. Then they branded games where you had to travel between locations as "Walking simulators" as it would be bad to have to move between locations. So they invented stupid fast travel just so the dopamine addicts dont get bored a single second.

All the modern game mechanics are made so the degenerated people always feel rewarded despite even have achieved anything but just standing around. And yes Piranha Bytes fell for that crap too with instant quick travel and companions so the players can pick their noses while the AI is fighting itself. Just as did Spiders.

Greedfall is just the next example for a game that please dopamine addicts who cant achieve anything on their own: Companions who fight for you, pi$$ easy fights a 3 year old can do, pause for drinking healing potions, all moves have to look cool even if they are completely unrealistic and only super hero could do it. But thats how modern games are: you dont play a hero because that is not cool enough for the degenerated masses. You have to play a super hero.

And if the game doesnt have that it gets shunned as junky, outdated and makes a bad first impression.

Look that bad impression, that overcome the hard difficulty, people who just treat you as unimportant as you really are is the reason for me to play these games.

I want to play games that are harsh and unforgiving. Games where I feel I have achieved something after I had to put in hard work and skilled 50 hours and then are finally able to kill that monster over there which taunted me since the beginning of the game. I despise games which throw everything at my feet just for me existing.

Now you are just ranting.

There is an "AI Nanny" just at the beginning of Gothic 3, and you must really hate it. Tutorials are essential for today's game as game mechanics grow more and more complex, no matter what your opinion is. Like you bought a toolset or even a toy, and there will be a manual that instructs how to use/play it. You must hate tools and gadgets that have manuals as well.

You throw temper tantrums yelling that today's games are for "braindead," "degenerates," and "three-year-olds." Yet soon, you mentioned "walking." Is "walking" out of the capability of any of the three "groups" you nagged? You are contradicting yourself. Don't get me wrong, many people are willing to do all those chores, but they prefer to do it in real life. You want to play in your way is your business, same as others' are others'; stop holding this strange close-minded grudge and spit it by using the disguise of defending a game.

Lastly, you clearly don't understand what made Greedfall succeed, even I have mentioned it. Techomancer also has companions, why it didn't receive the same applause as Greedfall? Besides, Greedfall also has a lot of "walking," and now you don't notice it anymore. Have you played the game?

If you are really obsessed with those old-timer-games, do those chores you adored in real life and hire some people to make yours. Otherwise, good radiance, and sorry for your "past-time."

[mcdcecil]

this and Gothic 2 night of the raven is what i cut my teeth on. perch and use the bow. join the monks. a voiced lone wander. the best game of its time.