Asking about SJW themes constructively.

[The Faceless Man]

Since several people wanted to know (yet their threads got deleted), I am going to post a more constructive version of it here so it is less offensive and people can understand what's really being asked.

Lately a lot of entertainment is being influenced to meet the expectations of SJWs (Social Justice Warriors), who consist of proponents of LGBT/Feminist/etc., basically anyone with a social or political agenda in the entertainment industry who wants to change the format or standard many of us are already familiar with.

It has become obvious in the past few years and it has a huge impact on people not invested in this kind of stuff. It goes too far in most cases and ruins the experience for those of us who prefer a good story. When we try to avoid this kind of stuff, we get comments like this:

Originally posted by fungusdude4:

I guess you don't support basic human decency then.

Nobody really minds a female protagonist (Metroid, Tomb Raider, etc.,), but is it a female protagonist who constantly shows off how independent she is in front of bigoted individuals surrounding her? Does she have a gay male side-kick so that she has an opposite gender to compliment her taste in boys? Is she rescuing a male prince who is somehow helpless and inept compared to her incredible abilities as a woman?

Stuff like that might be entertaining for someone, but not everyone. It's unfortunate we even have to ask this question, but these themes are common in indie games with female protagonists. We just want to know: is this one of those games?

[YSR715]

How sad is it that OP sees everything with any non-white cishet men rep and thinks "mah sjws" you people whine about how everyone should look past ultra right wing messages in media if its "good" and how it has the right to exsist but you refuse to do the same for leftist ones?

[HansGrulo66]

Originally posted by YSR715:

How sad is it that OP sees everything with any non-white cishet men rep and thinks "mah sjws" you people whine about how everyone should look past ultra right wing messages in media if its "good" and how it has the right to exsist but you refuse to do the same for leftist ones?

"cishet"

I think your comment can be safely disregarded if our use of "SJW" is apparently enough to disregard our arguments.

[The Hopping Chaos]

So far there have only two tiny things that set off my Social Justice Propaganda alarm, and both of them are presented in ways where I couldn't tell if it was serious or supposed to be a joke at SJWs' expense.

This game's dev cycle was a decade long labour of love and is very high quality.
I think it more than deserves the benefit of the doubt.
8 hours of gameplay so far and other than those two eyebrow raising moments I've been on the edge of my seat.

[YSR715]

Originally posted by UnitKiller665502:

Originally posted by YSR715:

How sad is it that OP sees everything with any non-white cishet men rep and thinks "mah sjws" you people whine about how everyone should look past ultra right wing messages in media if its "good" and how it has the right to exsist but you refuse to do the same for leftist ones?

"cishet"

I think your comment can be safely disregarded if our use of "SJW" is apparently enough to disregard our arguments.

I'm sorry I didn't know using a shorter verison of two real medical terms upseted you

[FunWithTreason]

Originally posted by Mithalan Mithrarin:

YES! The game is VERY pro social justice!
playable female characters, abolishing relijious iconography & rejecting major religions, and dismantling the opressive governments fueled by dogmatic religion! :dewgrim:

If you are of the Anti-SJW mindset then you best stay away from this game & anything made by Konjak! :noituchimp:

i'm Anti SJW, this game is awsome, and the story is awesome.

if you keep playing the game one of the people in the tower says something along the lines of "you should just surround yourself with people who think the same as you" and of course anywho who doesn't follow the set guide line, well there's a penance in store for you.

[Cheese]

I have not finished the game, but I would not describe anything I've seen thus far as pandering to SJWs at all.

Originally posted by Lawnch:

All the games you would label as non-political from the past few decades are made by and for, in large part, white men.

No, I don't think so. The majority of games people would consider apolitical come from Japan, probably.
I mean, what politics are GotY winners like Super Mario Odyssey or Zelda: Breath of the Wild pushing?

Therefore the experience of the game reflects that - quite often, white male power fantasies, or games targeting the male eye, are designed to make that demographic feel good.

Even if that were 100% true (it isn't, Japan caters to Japan first and foremost, usually), why are you trying to make a developer creating games they personally would enjoy, and by extension are likely to be enjoyed by people similar to them (who are also the majority population of the country and consumer base), sound so insidious?

I mean, would you consider it a problem for Africans to make games designed to appeal to Africans in Africa?
Would you describe these games disparagingly as "black power fantasies"?

As game creation tools become more accessible and more of the world pays attention to gaming, more people outside that demographic get involved.

I have not seen much of what you describe. Mostly it's been an explosion of indie games made by white people from various countries.

I am a white dude. I always played games that fit that exact mold. And you know what? It got boring. Eventually you realize the stories are all cut from the cloth.

Can we get some examples of these white male power fantasies you engaged in?
I get the impression you just had very narrow taste in games and the sex or race of the developer doesn't really matter to you despite your harping on it, because...

Walking sims are now games I love

Most of the these are made by white men.

I've put 150+ hours into Stardew Valley

Made by a white man, inspired by Harvest Moon, a Japanese man series.

Nier Automata is now my favourite game of all time.

Developed by Japanese men.

All of those games fall in your definition of "politcal"

No? None of those games you mentioned aside from some walking simulators contain the brand of political agenda pushing OP is concerned about.
I mean, I think OP's concern is totally misguided since there is no compelling reason to think Iconoclasts will contain SJW themes, but come on, it's plainly apparent what politics he is concerned about.

Here's a tip: engage with the media you think is being affected by people unlike you.

...You say as you talk about liking walking simulators and indie games made by white men.

At the very least, engaging with these games that you say are political - I mean really digging in, learning their political leanings, understanding them - gives you the knowledge to debate why they aren't appealing for one reason or another.

I think he just disagrees with the heavy-handed messages and is turned off every time they appear in his video games. I don't think the issue is that he hasn't been exposed to the ideas or games containing them enough to understand why he dislikes it.

Let me just ask: Would you need to engage with -- you know, really dig into and intimately understand -- games that contain messages about how women should just stay at home and raise the kids and not engage in the public sphere, to know that you don't like games advocating that idea?


Please stop being overly concerned with who made what. It's not that important.

[Ashley]

I am a moderate (a.k.a a reasonable one) and I don't see anything of political concern.

The only thing that's obvious is OPs bias.
Some people are so brainwashed by their own political camp, they start seeing "the enemy" absolutely everywhere, even if there aren't any. If anything, this thread is a testament to modern, politcal paranoia. It's taken over your lives. You're not speaking as individuals, but as part of a hive mind. There is no telling you apart, because you all act the same, depending on your camp.
You can't even enjoy a good game anymore, simply because it has a female protagonist.
It's narrow-minded, it's immature, it's fanatical. A proper adult can overlook these things, especially when said protagonist doesn't even talk.

Originally posted by node357:

SJW is label used by trolls to shut down people who say things they don't like. the simplest way to bypass the bs is to end the conversation as soon as that term is employed. it's fake, it's a lie, and it only functions as a means of censorship. just put it out of your mind.

"Troll" is a word used by people to deflect any kind of criticism/opinion they don't like.
They immediately shut down the discussion, because they can't be bothered to actually have one, probably because having an opponent that puts up an actual fight is too difficult for them.
You may want to ask yourself who is censoring who here, because I see a lot of projection in that post of yours. Also, if you don't like the term "SJW", you better not use the term "Nazi" when referring to right-wing people. It's just as wrong (objectively, they're right-wing extremists).
It would make you just as dumb - and a hypocrite.

[HansGrulo66]

The Cis stuff was created by tumblrites. But whatevs I guess.

My last piece on the subject to those that say "All media is political". This is not really accurate and I will explain why people are upset as of late.

Some media isn't political, something like MLP definitely isn't political, it's just made to make money. Dragon Ball Z isn't really political, it's just made to tell a story (and to sell merchandise). Spider-Man isn't political, it's just there to tell a story of a teenager who gained the abilities of a spider.

There is Media that is political though. Things like Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Early Bioware games like Kotor and ME, Tom Clancy, Deus Ex and hell, even the Metro series.

But why aren't we complaining about the things I just listed? Well if you look at those series, they tend to tell a story that involves political elements WITHIN the game's world. Metro deals with groups that take on the ideology of Communism and Nazism. Deus Ex deals with conspiracies that are very political in nature, similar to Tom Clancy. And the Fallout and Elder Scrolls games deal with warring factions (especially Skyrim and Morrowind). But these games have political elements that fit nicely into the world of the game, you can escape to these worlds while taking in their politics. Metro may be an exception, but it never comes across like it's trying to convince you to take a side, it's up to you to decide how you see it.

I dunno how Nier Automata is considered super political, maybe there is a slight political element about Yorha and the friendly machines led by Pascal, and the religious element that comes into play at some point, but again, this isn't what people are bothered by!

Now where a lot of people who complain about politics come into play, is when they deal with specifically contemporary (usually identity) politics. Most often in the form of blatant political correctness. This may sound like I am saying that featuring marginalized groups in a story = identity politics, but this isn't as simple as that. People loved the movie Predator because the characters were good, and happened to be PoC. Those characters also happened to be some of the most memorable, which is why people don't care, because those characters were good!

But now let's take a look at how ME Andromeda writes a trans character...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndUnqX04Qs

Notice how shoe horned the dialogue is, and how it's kinda lecturing the audience. She's basically a token trans character rather than an actual character that people can like.

And there is of course, the countless female characters as of late that are stronk independent womyn types, who are virtually flawless and are usually depicted as being more competent than the male character. Case in point, Rey from the new Star Wars movies. They end up being more annoying than likeable due to being so perfect and overly "strong". This is why no one complains usually when it comes to female anime characters, as they are written with actual faults and are also quite appealing to boot. Rey is just boring personality wise and design wise (in the movies at least).

And another one, the BBC Sci-Fi series Doctor Who, which has been insanely poor for a number of years and has gotten super PC lately. In recent episodes, Regency London (in the 1800) was depicted as being multi cultural like it is today. This is already immersion breaking enough (and this would be fine if it was set in a modern setting, but this is history), but then the characters outright point it out with Doctor Who himself saying "History is a whitewash". This is a red flag to those who complain about "politics" in media. Him literally telling the audience the point of the scene isn't presenting a story that involves politics, but is basically stopping to tell the audience what to think. This is where the line is drawn and things get bad.

And lastly, before I wrap up. They usually do this sometimes because they know the product is bad, so they use gimmick casting (Ghostbusters and Idris Elba playing Roland in Dark Tower) to try and deflect from how bad the movie actually is, by labelling the haters as sexist or racist, when it's really just because the choices are unfaithful to the source material or because the fans didn't want it. Both movies flopped just for the record.

So how do we fix this issue? Well here is how I would.

1. Tell stories with politics but keep it within the realms of the setting. If you wanna tell a story that's similar to current day events, try to keep it subtle and don't lecture to the audience what your point is, let them come up with their own conclusion.

2. Stop putting focus on casting the right amount of people with x colour or x sex. Just tell the story you wanna tell, there are plenty of people who like telling stories about women, there may be even more if you stop complaining that the character isn't "strong" enough or "is too sexy". These will actually reduce the amount of female characters in fiction if people keep doing this. If you wanna have a story that has a mostly black cast that's also cool, but don't cry foul if someone just wants to tell a story with only white characters.

3. Try to make your female characters have actual interesting personalities and flaws. If Japan has been doing female characters for decades without people crying foul, then you should take a page from them and see how they write them. Even the bland ones are leagues better than boring characters like Rey. Or if not anime/manga, then look at how characters like Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor or even Xena were written.

4. And the last one, the most important of all. Write compelling stories with compelling gameplay again please! I can't stress how often times these stories I have criticised have been plagued with terribly dull characters, uninteresting plots and a general lack of creativity. As for video games, overly simple gameplay that's dumbed down as heck. People notice the aforementioned flaws more if you don't do this. Which is just a sign of a wider issue in western media in general.

And that's about it. I'm sure you guys will disagree but this is how I personally see this whole debacle and always have seen it.

[Sensu]

Originally posted by Cheese:

I have not finished the game, but I would not describe anything I've seen thus far as pandering to SJWs at all.

Originally posted by Lawnch:

All the games you would label as non-political from the past few decades are made by and for, in large part, white men.

No, I don't think so. The majority of games people would consider apolitical come from Japan, probably.
I mean, what politics are GotY winners like Super Mario Odyssey or Zelda: Breath of the Wild pushing?

Therefore the experience of the game reflects that - quite often, white male power fantasies, or games targeting the male eye, are designed to make that demographic feel good.

Even if that were 100% true (it isn't, Japan caters to Japan first and foremost, usually), why are you trying to make a developer creating games they personally would enjoy, and by extension are likely to be enjoyed by people similar to them (who are also the majority population of the country and consumer base), sound so insidious?

I mean, would you consider it a problem for Africans to make games designed to appeal to Africans in Africa?
Would you describe these games disparagingly as "black power fantasies"?

As game creation tools become more accessible and more of the world pays attention to gaming, more people outside that demographic get involved.

I have not seen much of what you describe. Mostly it's been an explosion of indie games made by white people from various countries.

I am a white dude. I always played games that fit that exact mold. And you know what? It got boring. Eventually you realize the stories are all cut from the cloth.

Can we get some examples of these white male power fantasies you engaged in?
I get the impression you just had very narrow taste in games and the sex or race of the developer doesn't really matter to you despite your harping on it, because...

Walking sims are now games I love

Most of the these are made by white men.

I've put 150+ hours into Stardew Valley

Made by a white man, inspired by Harvest Moon, a Japanese man series.

Nier Automata is now my favourite game of all time.

Developed by Japanese men.

All of those games fall in your definition of "politcal"

No? None of those games you mentioned aside from some walking simulators contain the brand of political agenda pushing OP is concerned about.
I mean, I think OP's concern is totally misguided since there is no compelling reason to think Iconoclasts will contain SJW themes, but come on, it's plainly apparent what politics he is concerned about.

Here's a tip: engage with the media you think is being affected by people unlike you.

...You say as you talk about liking walking simulators and indie games made by white men.

At the very least, engaging with these games that you say are political - I mean really digging in, learning their political leanings, understanding them - gives you the knowledge to debate why they aren't appealing for one reason or another.

I think he just disagrees with the heavy-handed messages and is turned off every time they appear in his video games. I don't think the issue is that he hasn't been exposed to the ideas or games containing them enough to understand why he dislikes it.

Let me just ask: Would you need to engage with -- you know, really dig into and intimately understand -- games that contain messages about how women should just stay at home and raise the kids and not engage in the public sphere, to know that you don't like games advocating that idea?


Please stop being overly concerned with who made what. It's not that important.

I agree with everything you said mate. Hopefully the "children" here will eventually develop into adulthood. At least I can say I had a fun time reading this thread. Mainly because the ♥♥♥♥ people say is so ridiculous it's pretty much impossible to take it seriously.

To everyone who didn't like the game for x and y reasons -> I'd suggest you get a refund, make a review and don't force your thoughts on other people.

To everyone who did enjoy it -> If you wanna know more Metroidvanias to try, I'd suggest giving the Metroid franchise a try (but you might wanna avoid Other M and the original Metroid 2), Cave Story (original version for PC is free and there is a translation patch available on the internet), Castlevania titles (Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow, etc.).

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Caldaria:

I am a moderate (a.k.a a reasonable one)

Dangerous levels of smug detected.

You can't even enjoy a good game anymore, simply because it has a female protagonist.

OP specifically says female main characters aren't a problem. He's concerned about the pushing of ideologies he doesn't like and wants to know if this game does that. This is apparent if you actually read what was written.
Criticize his preferences all you want, but don't lie.

[HansGrulo66]

Originally posted by Cheese:

Originally posted by Caldaria:

I am a moderate (a.k.a a reasonable one)

Dangerous levels of smug detected.

You can't even enjoy a good game anymore, simply because it has a female protagonist.

OP specifically says female main characters aren't a problem. He's concerned about the pushing of ideologies he doesn't like and wants to know if this game does that. This is apparent if you actually read what was written.
Criticize his preferences all you want, but don't lie.

Caldaria isn't wrong.

The Easily Offended Authoritarians have created an environment in which people who oppose their way of thinking, many at least, are now so sensitive to their ideology they will tie even slightly related things to them.

Such as connecting a female protagonist to feminism. It's mental...

[Cheese]

Originally posted by UnitKiller665502:

Caldaria isn't wrong.

He is wrong.
I think it's a bit ridiculous to be so concerned that the game may contain SJW themes just because the game is indie and has a female protagonist. I don't disagree on that point.
But to say "(he) can't even enjoy a good game anymore, simply because it has a female protagonist" is a complete mischaracterization, especially when OP specifically says female protagonists aren't a problem.

[TheSyldat]

Originally posted by UnitKiller665502:

The Cis stuff was created by tumblrites. But whatevs I guess.

My last piece on the subject to those that say "All media is political". This is not really accurate and I will explain why people are upset as of late.

Some media isn't political, something like MLP definitely isn't political, it's just made to make money. Dragon Ball Z isn't really political, it's just made to tell a story (and to sell merchandise). Spider-Man isn't political, it's just there to tell a story of a teenager who gained the abilities of a spider.

There is Media that is political though. Things like Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Early Bioware games like Kotor and ME, Tom Clancy, Deus Ex and hell, even the Metro series.

But why aren't we complaining about the things I just listed? Well if you look at those series, they tend to tell a story that involves political elements WITHIN the game's world. Metro deals with groups that take on the ideology of Communism and Nazism. Deus Ex deals with conspiracies that are very political in nature, similar to Tom Clancy. And the Fallout and Elder Scrolls games deal with warring factions (especially Skyrim and Morrowind). But these games have political elements that fit nicely into the world of the game, you can escape to these worlds while taking in their politics. Metro may be an exception, but it never comes across like it's trying to convince you to take a side, it's up to you to decide how you see it.

I dunno how Nier Automata is considered super political, maybe there is a slight political element about Yorha and the friendly machines led by Pascal, and the religious element that comes into play at some point, but again, this isn't what people are bothered by!

Now where a lot of people who complain about politics come into play, is when they deal with specifically contemporary (usually identity) politics. Most often in the form of blatant political correctness. This may sound like I am saying that featuring marginalized groups in a story = identity politics, but this isn't as simple as that. People loved the movie Predator because the characters were good, and happened to be PoC. Those characters also happened to be some of the most memorable, which is why people don't care, because those characters were good!

But now let's take a look at how ME Andromeda writes a trans character...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndUnqX04Qs

Notice how shoe horned the dialogue is, and how it's kinda lecturing the audience. She's basically a token trans character rather than an actual character that people can like.

And there is of course, the countless female characters as of late that are stronk independent womyn types, who are virtually flawless and are usually depicted as being more competent than the male character. Case in point, Rey from the new Star Wars movies. They end up being more annoying than likeable due to being so perfect and overly "strong". This is why no one complains usually when it comes to female anime characters, as they are written with actual faults and are also quite appealing to boot. Rey is just boring personality wise and design wise (in the movies at least).

And another one, the BBC Sci-Fi series Doctor Who, which has been insanely poor for a number of years and has gotten super PC lately. In recent episodes, Regency London (in the 1800) was depicted as being multi cultural like it is today. This is already immersion breaking enough (and this would be fine if it was set in a modern setting, but this is history), but then the characters outright point it out with Doctor Who himself saying "History is a whitewash". This is a red flag to those who complain about "politics" in media. Him literally telling the audience the point of the scene isn't presenting a story that involves politics, but is basically stopping to tell the audience what to think. This is where the line is drawn and things get bad.

And lastly, before I wrap up. They usually do this sometimes because they know the product is bad, so they use gimmick casting (Ghostbusters and Idris Elba playing Roland in Dark Tower) to try and deflect from how bad the movie actually is, by labelling the haters as sexist or racist, when it's really just because the choices are unfaithful to the source material or because the fans didn't want it. Both movies flopped just for the record.

So how do we fix this issue? Well here is how I would.

1. Tell stories with politics but keep it within the realms of the setting. If you wanna tell a story that's similar to current day events, try to keep it subtle and don't lecture to the audience what your point is, let them come up with their own conclusion.

2. Stop putting focus on casting the right amount of people with x colour or x sex. Just tell the story you wanna tell, there are plenty of people who like telling stories about women, there may be even more if you stop complaining that the character isn't "strong" enough or "is too sexy". These will actually reduce the amount of female characters in fiction if people keep doing this. If you wanna have a story that has a mostly black cast that's also cool, but don't cry foul if someone just wants to tell a story with only white characters.

3. Try to make your female characters have actual interesting personalities and flaws. If Japan has been doing female characters for decades without people crying foul, then you should take a page from them and see how they write them. Even the bland ones are leagues better than boring characters like Rey. Or if not anime/manga, then look at how characters like Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor or even Xena were written.

4. And the last one, the most important of all. Write compelling stories with compelling gameplay again please! I can't stress how often times these stories I have criticised have been plagued with terribly dull characters, uninteresting plots and a general lack of creativity. As for video games, overly simple gameplay that's dumbed down as heck. People notice the aforementioned flaws more if you don't do this. Which is just a sign of a wider issue in western media in general.

And that's about it. I'm sure you guys will disagree but this is how I personally see this whole debacle and always have seen it.

See here is my issue with all you have said I have ziilions of counter examples in media created in France forr a French audience yes even in video game form where right wing ideologies feels equally hamfistted.
All in All what you are truly mad about is the negative impact of the "design by comitee" mentality of both the cinema and the game industry of the US . And how you have a checklist of things to integrate in the plot because the producers asked you to put that in it even when you personnaly have zero experience with the subject at hand.

Heck in the case of Mass Effect Andromeda if you took the time even for a second to talk to LGBT people about the romance options and the LGBT talks in it , you would have found them agreeeing with you HECK in fact you'd have even learned that rather than being inclusive pretty much all of its content are considered so many steps backwards that it felt like an homophobe of the 50's was the one that was told to do the writing of gay lesbian and bi romance (don't even get me started on Reyes )

Wolf 2 is again a good example of the reason why "write what you know" should always be the rule especially when you deal with subjects that are still controversial. Why was the first one good because the devs very much live in the thick of a Scandinvian area where saddly actual nazi ideology didn't quite go away all the more contrary is still very much alive they were therefore hiting hard and marking points where it matters. But when Bethesda tasked them to write a 1960's USA under nazi regime with characters of color that would feel realistic for people of color of that time era without granting them the time to educate themselves on those , we all know where it went down and it was a colosal disaster of writing. Why ? Because they didn't know ♥♥♥♥ and were doing some guessing work in a rush to meet a deadline...

This my friend is the reason why "Politics of the authors" was such an important move in our cinema industry in France and why anyone working in the US in the cinema industry and game industry is envious of both Japan and France workers because in Japan too an equivalent of Politics of the authors movement took place. What is the idea ? Plain simple "Do not charge me to write about something I don't wanna write if you put me as the director of your project you trust my judgement and you drop the design by comitee BS"

Did Jade of Beyond Good and Evil feel like a shallow empty shell of a tokenistic depiction ? No of course not ... Why ? Because Michel Ancel wanted her that way and didn't let money bags who have zero clue on how to write a story dictate what would and would not be in the game .

So drop the consipiracy theories already and fight against the real issue at end here , which the design by comitee mentality ...

[iemander]

I don't really see if you can put SJW together with left-wing honestly.

SJW isn't just about ideologies, it's also about oppression, fear tactics, social media manipulation, etc. SJW to left-wing is like Hitler to right-wing. They're so extreme they've lost all sense of reason.

[TheSyldat]

Hell when it comes to gay and bi dudes even the original mass effect trilogy was a train wreck and felt like we were in the 50's alll over again ....

Clearly the person holding the pen was faaar from knowing what he/she was talking about ...