What's the deal with the Hojo family?

[Kak]

Why are there so many generals in the Hojo clan using the family name as their own? I've been trying to do a little research on why their family is so big, but I can't find anything. I know a few of the guys are sons of Hojo Soun, and Tsunashige was married into the family, but there are a lot of other generals that don't seem to be a part of the family yet have the name anyway. I'm assuming they were given the name for being good officers or something.

Does anyone know anything about this? It's pretty hard to find information on the Hojo clan besides major events.

[Wolfparable]

I assumed it was a sons and uncles and nephews sort of extended family thing like the shimazu

[Grand Historian]

Most of them are actual bloodline members of the Hojo - they had a very large family.

[Daimyō]

I'm trying to think, off of the top of my head, I can't think of someone other than Tsunashige that's not from the Hojo bloodline. Keep in mind that there is, technically, two Hojo families in that area.

The Hojo regents from the... Kamakura(?).. period it was weird where the Emperor was the puppet of the Shogun but the Shogun was a puppet of the Shikken - a regency title held by the Hojo clan that was founded in the 1200s I think, when the Hojo were overthrown in 1333 - that was the end of their power.

Enter Ise Shinkuro, posthumously known as Hojo Soun. He (after gaining power/influence with the Imagawa?) took over Sagami and cemented his rule there, being the undisputed (and first Sengoku) daimyo. Ise Shinkuro died and his son/heir Ujitsuna changed the family name to Hojo, because they held Sagami - traditionally the Hojo's base of power. The name held prestige and authority I guess. Ujitsuna's Hojo was known as the Go-Hojo.

This Go-Hojo, or Later Hojo family was comparatively large in the number of significant members / recorded sons of clan heads. Their family tree (as far as we know) is:

1st head: Ise Shinkuro aka Hojo Soun/Nagauji, his sons are: Ujitsuna, Ujitoki, and Nagatsuna(Genan)
2nd head: Ujitsuna, his sons are Ujiyasu and Tsunashige*
3rd head: Ujiyasu, his sons are Ujimasa, Ujiteru, Ujikuni, Ujinori, Ujitada, Ujimitsu, Ujihide**.
4th head: Ujimasa, his sons are Ujinao, Ujisada, Naoshige, Ujifusa.
5th head: Ujinao, offspring unknown but I doubt the line continued after, you know. #RIP

* Hojo Tsunashige is from the (Fu)Kushima clan, prominent Imagawa retainers during the Hanagura-no-ran. He married Ujitsuna's daughter and was adopted into the clan. His son is named Ujishige.
** Hojo Ujihide was adopted by Uesugi Kenshin, and was given the name Kagetora. Fought Kagekatsu in the Otate-no-ran.

This gives us quite a number of people while only following the lineage of the line of succession - with the exception of Soun, I believe all of the above, including Tsunashige's son, total to 17? The others also likely had sons and heirs, which explains their numbers in the game.

Then, there's also the possibility, however slight that may be, that an officer with the name of Hojo wasn't related to the Go-Hojo, but was descended from the original Hojo family of Izu and Sagami, the ones who held the Shikken title.

[Grand Historian]

Originally posted by n0fail:

I'm trying to think, off of the top of my head, I can't think of someone other than Tsunashige that's not from the Hojo bloodline. Keep in mind that there is, technically, two Hojo families in that area.

The Hojo regents from the... Kamakura(?).. period it was weird where the Emperor was the puppet of the Shogun but the Shogun was a puppet of the Shikken - a regency title held by the Hojo clan that was founded in the 1200s I think, when the Hojo were overthrown in 1333 - that was the end of their power.

This isn't that weird at all; the Emperors later became puppets of the Ashikaga, who were puppets of whoever controlled the capital.

Enter Ise Shinkuro, posthumously known as Hojo Soun. He (after gaining power/influence with the Imagawa?) took over Sagami and cemented his rule there, being the undisputed (and first Sengoku) daimyo. Ise Shinkuro died and his son/heir Ujitsuna changed the family name to Hojo, because they held Sagami - traditionally the Hojo's base of power. The name held prestige and authority I guess. Ujitsuna's Hojo was known as the Go-Hojo.

Ise was a prominent vassal of the Imagawa who was originally dispatched by them and the Shogunate to suppress unrest in Izu - he later gained enough power that he became independent in his own right. Taking the name Hojo was also part of a political coup against the Imagawa, in that they declared, henceforth, they were their superiors.

This Go-Hojo, or Later Hojo family was comparatively large in the number of significant members / recorded sons of clan heads. Their family tree (as far as we know) is:

1st head: Ise Shinkuro aka Hojo Soun/Nagauji, his sons are: Ujitsuna, Ujitoki, and Nagatsuna(Genan)
2nd head: Ujitsuna, his sons are Ujiyasu and Tsunashige*
3rd head: Ujiyasu, his sons are Ujimasa, Ujiteru, Ujikuni, Ujinori, Ujitada, Ujimitsu, Ujihide**.
4th head: Ujimasa, his sons are Ujinao, Ujisada, Naoshige, Ujifusa.
5th head: Ujinao, offspring unknown but I doubt the line continued after, you know. #RIP

The line actually did continue - Ujinao's son became a retainer of Ieyasu's, and the Hojo were later given a domain at Sawayama in Kawachi which they kept until the Meiji Restoration.

Then, there's also the possibility, however slight that may be, that an officer with the name of Hojo wasn't related to the Go-Hojo, but was descended from the original Hojo family of Izu and Sagami, the ones who held the Shikken title.

Unlike the Go-Hojo, they were all purged or changed their names. So, it's incredibly unlikely.

[Daimyō]

Thanks for the clarification, Imperator! All I knew of Ise Shinkuro is that he aided the cause of "Make the Imagawa Great Again"

I doubted that the original Hojo line continued, hence the "however slight that may be" - we know how in the Sengoku anyone could be like "HEY SO MY X GRANDFATHER IS Y" so that's the only way I thought that'd happen.

As for the weirdness, I know how often that occurred in history, and in Japan - but I found it weird how the supposed regents (Shogun) were powerless and had regents of their own that had the power. It's... uncommon in other places. And didn't it only happen twice in Japan? Late Kamakura and Late Ashikaga - though in the latter it didn't happen through a Shikken since the post was abolished(?) and arguably until Mr. Kampaku no one was "officially" > Shogun?

As for the line continuing through Ujinao, hm. Odd, since Odawara was such a thorn in everyone's side. Did anyone significant come through Ujinao's line? Did they take a part in the Boshin war or was their domain too small to matter, and only Aizu, Choshu, and Satsuma were "Making the Emperor Great Again"?

[Kak]

Thanks for all of the information guys! Japanese history really is fascinating to read about.

Originally posted by n0fail:

As for the line continuing through Ujinao, hm. Odd, since Odawara was such a thorn in everyone's side. Did anyone significant come through Ujinao's line? Did they take a part in the Boshin war or was their domain too small to matter, and only Aizu, Choshu, and Satsuma were "Making the Emperor Great Again"?

Kawachi, the province they were granted under Ieyasu, is a pretty small area to have control over, only worth about 10000 koku at the time. However, I'd say there's a likely chance that they at least contributed to the Boshin War seeing as Kawachi is in very close proximity to Osaka castle, which was famously sieged during that conflict. They may have provided soldiers to whichever side they supported or at least have been engulfed in the aftermath.

Also, were the Aizu supporting the Emperor? I always thought they were one of the most loyal clans to the Tokugawa shogunate, but I could be wrong.

[Daimyō]

^ I think it was mostly Choshu and Satsuma, I forgot which side Aizu was on during the Boshin War but right after, it obviously went to a major Emperor loyalist, since it was one of the largest domains.

[Kak]

Ah, okay. I don't really know too much about the Boshin War, but it seems interesting, so I might look into it a bit.

[Grand Historian]

Originally posted by n0fail:

Thanks for the clarification, Imperator! All I knew of Ise Shinkuro is that he aided the cause of "Make the Imagawa Great Again"

You're welcome!

I doubted that the original Hojo line continued, hence the "however slight that may be" - we know how in the Sengoku anyone could be like "HEY SO MY X GRANDFATHER IS Y" so that's the only way I thought that'd happen.

As for the weirdness, I know how often that occurred in history, and in Japan - but I found it weird how the supposed regents (Shogun) were powerless and had regents of their own that had the power. It's... uncommon in other places. And didn't it only happen twice in Japan? Late Kamakura and Late Ashikaga - though in the latter it didn't happen through a Shikken since the post was abolished(?) and arguably until Mr. Kampaku no one was "officially" > Shogun?

Yeah, Japan has always proven itself a... special exception to many of the normal rules that apply elsewhere.

While it has only offically happened twice, many could make the argument that dual puppets also happened during the Gempei and Northern/Southern court wars.

(Though, if we really want to get technical during the late Ashikaga, the Emperor was a puppet of the Fujiwara regents who were puppets of the Ashikaga Shogunate, who were puppets of the Hosokawa Kanrei, who were puppets of their Miyoshi vassals, who later became puppets of Hisahide Matsunaga.)

As for the line continuing through Ujinao, hm. Odd, since Odawara was such a thorn in everyone's side. Did anyone significant come through Ujinao's line? Did they take a part in the Boshin war or was their domain too small to matter, and only Aizu, Choshu, and Satsuma were "Making the Emperor Great Again"?

While the last lord of Sayama domain was Ujiyuki Hojo (d. 1919), he didn't do anything particularly important during the Boshin War.

As for the side that fought to restore the Imperial Court, Choshu and Satsuma were the main forces, with Saga and Tosa providing additional assitance. Tsu and Yodo domains were key due to their defection, while Hiroshima and Kubota provided supplementary assistance as well.

On the Pro-Shogunate side, Aizu was the biggest supporter, with Jozai, Kuwana, Tsuruoka and Shonai providing further support to the Shogunate. Then there later came the Ōuetsu Reppan Dōmei headed primarily by Sendai and Yonezawa, and after that Ezo.

[Daimyō]

I think I found my new favorite person ^

It makes sense that Aizu would have been pro-Shogun given their location, as I clearly remember Choshu and Satsuma marching from allllllllllllllll the way over <-- there to go ---> and kick the Shogunate's ass.

Back on topic though, it's a shame how both Hojo clans kind of just fizzed out within a century or so of their rise to power. How long did the Go-Hojo last (in power) - From Shinkuro to Ujinao, about a century? The former Hojo lasted about 130~ years as Shikken before they were purged?

[Kak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Go-Hojo family lasted pretty much exactly 100 years. I believe Soun took on the Hojo name in 1491, and although you could say that the Hojo technically got eradicated in 1590 after the fall of Odawara, Hojo Ujinao died a year later in 1591, which could be said to be the time at which the clan was well and truly gone.

Still, I always thought that the Hojo were one of the biggest contenders to become the next Shogun family in the Sengoku Period. If it wasn't for the triple alliance with the Takeda and Imagawa, I bet they could have done it.

[Grand Historian]

Originally posted by n0fail:

I think I found my new favorite person ^

Thanks!

Back on topic though, it's a shame how both Hojo clans kind of just fizzed out within a century or so of their rise to power. How long did the Go-Hojo last (in power) - From Shinkuro to Ujinao, about a century? The former Hojo lasted about 130~ years as Shikken before they were purged?

Originally posted by Weavoid:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Go-Hojo family lasted pretty much exactly 100 years. I believe Soun took on the Hojo name in 1491, and although you could say that the Hojo technically got eradicated in 1590 after the fall of Odawara, Hojo Ujinao died a year later in 1591, which could be said to be the time at which the clan was well and truly gone.

Yeah, that's about right (though he only gained undisputed control of Izu in 1493).

Still, I always thought that the Hojo were one of the biggest contenders to become the next Shogun family in the Sengoku Period. If it wasn't for the triple alliance with the Takeda and Imagawa, I bet they could have done it.

The Triple Alliance probably saved the Hojo as both the Imagawa and Uesugi were out for blood, and though the Takeda were their temporary allies they probably would have pounced if they smelled enough blood.

The Hojo's best chance for gaining undisputed control of Eastern Japan would have come at the Otate no Ran - had they been able to provide enough help to Kagetora in time, the Uesugi would have ended up becoming their puppets, and the Takeda would have been completely isolated. From there the Hojo could have joined in the Oda's invasion in 1582 or even attacked sooner themselves (for certain, they would have been able to maintain control over Shinano without the Uesugi interferering in the Tensho-Jingo Conflict).

As far as the rest of the Eastern Clans go, the Satomi would have been easy enough to finish off once and for all if the Hojo could concentrate their forces there long enough, but the Satake would prove to be a tougher nut to crack - Yoshishige Satake, historically, did defeat a Hojo army (supposedly) 80,000 strong at Numajiri in 1584 with only a force a fourth the size of that (numbers are probably inflated, but it's known for certain he was horribly outnumbered and his gunnery tactics won the day). Still, given an alliance with the Date and enough pressure they probably would have capitulated too.

Even after all that, the Hojo would have still had to fight their way to the capital - if they kept a marriage alliance with Ieyasu, it would have made it significantly easier, but I don't think it would still be a cakewalk by any stretch.

[Daimyō]

^ I agree with Justinian's view on this. But even with winning the Otate-no-Ran I don't think they would have been in a position to march west. They'd have the Uesugi under their thumbs but would the Ashina, the afore-mentioned Satake, the Date, and the Mogami - among others - just watch them? I can't imagine it being that simple to just pick up and head west.

[Grand Historian]

Originally posted by n0fail:

^ I agree with Justinian's view on this. But even with winning the Otate-no-Ran I don't think they would have been in a position to march west. They'd have the Uesugi under their thumbs but would the Ashina, the afore-mentioned Satake, the Date, and the Mogami - among others - just watch them? I can't imagine it being that simple to just pick up and head west.

Yeah, marching west would have been particularly tough without Ieyasu's assistance. Though I don't think the Tohoku clans would have proven too much trouble since they generally spent too much time fighting each other than anyone else (besides the Satake). If the Hojo were inclined too, they could have possibly even allied with one of them and used them as an Eastern buffer against any potential threats there (they actually did ally with the Date to pincer the Satake).

[Kak]

Say there's a situation where Kagetora won the Otate-no-ran and the Uesugi essentially became Hojo puppets and there would be a couple of chances to at least gain some land in the west. They could have tried to join in on the Oda/Tokugawa invasion of Takeda lands, and if they used the Uesugi as help they could have probably gotten some of Katsuyori's northern territories.

After that, there may have even been a possibility that the Hojo could annex Uesugi lands, although I doubt all of the retainers would just stay quiet, so there'd probably be a lot of resistance. If that ever happened, they'd basically be holding Izu all the way to Noto, which I imagine would make them fairly able to take on the Oda, or at least the Tokugawa.

I'm probably looking at this in a pretty ridiculous way but I don't think it's too far fetched to say that the Hojo at the very least could gain more territory than they ended up with.