RE: Discussing ROMS and EMULATORS

[Devoidless]

I can only assume that post, and Guidelines by association, were left intentionally vague on purpose. Being a moderator elsewhere on the internet for several years I have a few questions.

Discussion in general, or discussion when directly in correlation with illegal software downloading aka 'piracy'? Seeing as A does not necessarily imply B, I'm just unclear as to where the line is.
Ex)
- Speaking of how WiiU/PS3 use an emulation software in their own systems to play older games (Or potential uses of hypothetical industry owned and created programs)
- Asking what sets a game available for purchase apart from free and less-than-legal versions (for the intention of a sale)
- Discussing different Windows compatibility modes (seeing as all are emulators of older operating systems) and the use thereof

The Rules and Guidelines only explicitly mention the discussion of piracy to be a bannable offense. Does this also extended to totally legal and already in-use applications (some previously mentioned) which seems to be implied by the pinned discussion, or are these considered in the safe zone?

If any discussion of emulators and ROMs is considered to be 'piracy', I would request that such be formally added to the Rules and Guidelines (as opposed to casually stated in the forums). Conversely, if only discussions directly related to fraudulent use of intellectual properties and/or 'piracy' are to be bannable offenses, I would also like to see that be mentioned clearly.

I am merely curious as to where the lines are, and why they are not clearly defined in the Rules and Guidelines of the Community. Once such things are cleared up users will no longer be in fear of accidently breaking the rules.

Truly,

-Devoidless

[Hen_Vorsh]

Messaggio originale di Devoidless:

It was relevant seeing as there is a less-then cheerful feeling about the current DRM on FFVII, and how it is affecting people actually playing the game they bought. The hyopthetical Sony-owned emulator was mentioned on a whim as a way to theoretically remove such DRM measures.

There ya go. So this is about the DRM. Then lets read your OP once more...

- Speaking of how WiiU/PS3 use an emulation software in their own systems to play older games (Or potential uses of hypothetical industry owned and created programs)
- Asking what sets a game available for purchase apart from free and less-than-legal versions (for the intention of a sale)
- Discussing different Windows compatibility modes (seeing as all are emulators of older operating systems) and the use thereof

How does the above even concern itself with the DRM of Final Fantasy? It sounds like you know exactly what they are refering to.

I will see myself out.

[Wareya]

The only thing I'm upset about is the implication of emulators themselves being illegal. No, in fact, they are not: and there are european laws about reverse engineering which explicitly protect them! Yes, BIOS issues are where emulation of your own games becomes illicit; for the PSX, if you can't dump your own console's BIOS, and play your own copy of whatever the game is, then you're emulating illegitimately. However, the emulators themselves are expressly legal. I understand why you wouldn't want people talking about them, for culture reasons, but banning people outright for talking about emulators themselves is ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[Devoidless]

Messaggio originale di Hen_Vorsh:

Messaggio originale di Devoidless:

It was relevant seeing as there is a less-then cheerful feeling about the current DRM on FFVII, and how it is affecting people actually playing the game they bought. The hyopthetical Sony-owned emulator was mentioned on a whim as a way to theoretically remove such DRM measures.

There ya go. So this is about the DRM. Then lets read your OP once more...

- Speaking of how WiiU/PS3 use an emulation software in their own systems to play older games (Or potential uses of hypothetical industry owned and created programs)
- Asking what sets a game available for purchase apart from free and less-than-legal versions (for the intention of a sale)
- Discussing different Windows compatibility modes (seeing as all are emulators of older operating systems) and the use thereof

How does the above even concern itself with the DRM of Final Fantasy? It sounds like you know exactly what they are refering to.

I will see myself out.

It's clear you missed the fairly clear and obvious point of this inquiry. Sorry to see you won't/are not able to take part in the thread.

Messaggio originale di PON:

The only thing I'm upset about is the implication of emulators themselves being illegal. No, in fact, they are not: and there are european laws about reverse engineering which explicitly protect them! Yes, BIOS issues are where emulation of your own games becomes illicit; for the PSX, if you can't dump your own console's BIOS, and play your own copy of whatever the game is, then you're emulating illegitimately. However, the emulators themselves are expressly legal. I understand why you wouldn't want people talking about them, for culture reasons, but banning people outright for talking about emulators themselves is ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Laws regarding such differ between the US and abroad. Typically for all matters, Steam/Valve use the US version as reference.Seeing as the entire thing is in the grey so far as US laws ae concerned, it is understandalbe to a degree.
However, my main concern is about other means of emulation and such which are no way related to condoning 'piracy'.

[Wareya]

>Typically for all matters, Steam/Valve use the US version as reference.Seeing as the entire thing is in the grey so far as US laws ae concerned, it is understandalbe to a degree.

Excuse me. I was being confusing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console_emulator#United_States
"According to all legal precedents, emulation is legal within the United States."
"Under United States law, obtaining a dumped copy of the original machine's BIOS is legal [...] as fair use as long as the user obtained a legally purchased copy of the machine."

[Devoidless]

Messaggio originale di PON:

>Typically for all matters, Steam/Valve use the US version as reference.Seeing as the entire thing is in the grey so far as US laws ae concerned, it is understandalbe to a degree.

Excuse me. I was being confusing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console_emulator#United_States
"According to all legal precedents, emulation is legal within the United States."
"Under United States law, obtaining a dumped copy of the original machine's BIOS is legal [...] as fair use as long as the user obtained a legally purchased copy of the machine."

Oh, right right. The whole reasoning against discussing home-brew emulations is simply because of the inability to really verify the BIOS and ownership of the original data on the ROM.
Which, as said, is their decision when it comes to such. Not concerned about such.
However, the broadness of the statement is worrying.

[Wareya]

Actually, my stance on this depends on how the Steam community works right now. If per-hub bans are finally possible (IIRC, they weren't during the little War Z event), I'm all for banning people from this hub for discussing setting up emulation of FF7; even in that case, though, mentions of it in the referential sense should be totally fine. If you can't do per-hub bans, though, then it should absolutely only apply to people who discuss things that simply break the law: downloading the game, copyrighted materials from the game, BIOS piracy, setting up an emulator with illegitimate stuff, etc.

[Devoidless]

Messaggio originale di Sunflowers:

Actually, my stance on this depends on how the Steam community works right now. If per-hub bans are finally possible (IIRC, they weren't during the little War Z event), I'm all for banning people from this hub for discussing setting up emulation of FF7; even in that case, though, mentions of it in the referential sense should be totally fine. If you can't do per-hub bans, though, then it should absolutely only apply to people who discuss things that simply break the law: downloading the game, copyrighted materials from the game, BIOS piracy, setting up an emulator with illegitimate stuff, etc.

That is essentially where I am coming from. Simply mentioning emulations and ROMs ought not be a ban. Giving walk-throughs how to set up illegal emulations/ROMS or admitting to such, understandably so, should be a bannable offense.

[Gus the Crocodile]

Messaggio originale di Sunflowers:

I'm all for banning people from this hub for discussing setting up emulation of FF7

On what grounds? "Setting up emulation" is, as has been noted, legal.

Edit: okay you clarify a bit in the end there with the word "illegitimate", sorry. Still, I think being careful about our wording is kind of the point of the whole thread here.

[Synthwave Hero]

Messaggio originale di Fox702:

Messaggio originale di Gus the Crocodile:

On what grounds? "Setting up emulation" is, as has been noted, legal.

Edit: okay you clarify a bit in the end there with the word "illegitimate", sorry. Still, I think being careful about our wording is kind of the point of the whole thread here.

Yeah, I agree. I have a legal copy of FFX & FFIX, but I don't have my PS2 anymore. So I have to run them through an emulator. Plus my FFX is scratched so it won't play passed a certain point on PS2 anyway.

best to have your disc repaired, take it to a pawn shop or somewhere that resurfaces discs, shouldnt cost much to have it fixed up.

[Devoidless]

Messaggio originale di Kahoshi:

Messaggio originale di Fox702:

Yeah, I agree. I have a legal copy of FFX & FFIX, but I don't have my PS2 anymore. So I have to run them through an emulator. Plus my FFX is scratched so it won't play passed a certain point on PS2 anyway.

best to have your disc repaired, take it to a pawn shop or somewhere that resurfaces discs, shouldnt cost much to have it fixed up.

Most places only charge a few bucks to do it, and the game becomes like-new.