FINAL FANTASY VII

FINAL FANTASY VII

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Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 26 日 下午 9:48
Why is Final Fantasy VII considered to be so great? (spoilers)
Some would even consider it the best game of all time? Personally I never played the game when it came out so I don't have the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia that others may have for the game but even so when I compare it to other games that came out at the time I really don't see what made this game so special?

Now I get it, even when going back to older games that you may have been fond of in the past sometimes your tastes and standards change and games you once loved you question why you ever liked it in the first place, but even so there are still some games that do stand the test of time and even those who did not play them at the time can still see why a game might have such a following, Chrono Trigger for example while it has aged you can still see why it is such a fan favourite years later, but with Final Fantasy 7 I just don't see it?

Trying to playthrough final fantasy 7 all these years later I really do not see what made this game so special? The writing is kind of lame, the graphics are ugly and the gameplay is monotonous and boring, I know people point to that Aerith dying scene as an emotional moment in gaming but I really don't see how anyone could really form any sort of attachment to the character considering the blandness of the character.


Not trying to be an edgy contrarian here I am genuinely curious, for those who rank this among their favourite games or rank it as one of the best games of it's era what exactly is so special about this game?
最後修改者:Greywolf; 2022 年 7 月 27 日 上午 1:49
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Sir Bunting 2022 年 7 月 28 日 下午 6:30 
Nobuo Uematsu is an inspiration, he's very good at establishing evocative themes that carry an RPG from start to finish, not just with melody and harmony but also with inventive textures in the percussion , he has been writing for Square for decades and proven himself over and over. I rank him very highly, for example with Yoko Kanno
NBOX21 2022 年 7 月 28 日 下午 6:48 
引用自 Greywolf
Maybe it is a matter of taste but I do feel that the 16bit pixel art aesthetic has aged better than the early playstation era 3D models, maybe it is a nostalgia thing but I just find the 16bit pixel art SNES aesthetic more visually appealing than the blocky early playstation era models which even at the time when they were cutting edge I really did not find appealing. From a technical standpoint it was a point of evolution that games needed to go through to facilitate gameplay changes and lead upto the graphical fidelity we have today, but from an artistic and aesthetic point of view I just find it unappealing.
You know what I find weird about all of this? It's how PS1 games typically have the exact same visual pixel art appeal as 2D games before it. Think about it - every single polygon in a 3D space is literally pixel art in its own way; it's just taking the same 2D pixel art we all love but applying all of that to every single texture in a 3D space. Tomb Raider 1, for example. It's all pixel art, but not in the way you think it is.

Plus we even had some really good 2D pixel art games on the PS1 as well, including Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Rayman 1, Mega Man X4 and ports of Final Fantasy 4-6 as well as Chrono Trigger.
And as much as I hate to make the appeal to popularity I can't be the only one who feels this way as evident by the number of indie games that use the pixel art aesthetic when compared to those who try and emulate the PS1 style early 3D.
That's a bad comparison as 2D games are generally way easier to make compared to 3D games. Which is why you see so many indie games use 2D as the framework, pixelated or not, as there's a lot more to consider in a 3D space and it's a lot of work, especially for small studios or in some cases individuals.
For instance Goldeneye 64 may be the more technically advanced game using 3D models but in terms of control and gameplay a 2D platformer like Super Mario World has aged better as it still feels as smooth to play as any 2D platformer today.
Yet another bad comparison as that's comparing an FPS, something barely ever done before and is a lot more complex, to a platformer, a tried and true genre that's been done many times before with much simpler mechanics. Not to mention 2D and 3D games are fundamentally different anyway.

Also, 3D games have their advantages over 2D - you can see what's ahead of you at all times with the only things obscuring your vision being bad camera angles and low draw distances, and some 3D games did a good job at alleviating both of those problems such as how Toy Story 2 and the Spyro trilogy handle level of detail. 2D games, meanwhile, are limited to visibility of what's on-screen which is usually only a few metres away and there's almost nothing you can do about that at all, which is especially problematic for fast paced games or those that sacrifice visibility for detail.
Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 28 日 下午 8:16 
引用自 NBOX21
引用自 Greywolf
Maybe it is a matter of taste but I do feel that the 16bit pixel art aesthetic has aged better than the early playstation era 3D models, maybe it is a nostalgia thing but I just find the 16bit pixel art SNES aesthetic more visually appealing than the blocky early playstation era models which even at the time when they were cutting edge I really did not find appealing. From a technical standpoint it was a point of evolution that games needed to go through to facilitate gameplay changes and lead upto the graphical fidelity we have today, but from an artistic and aesthetic point of view I just find it unappealing.
You know what I find weird about all of this? It's how PS1 games typically have the exact same visual pixel art appeal as 2D games before it. Think about it - every single polygon in a 3D space is literally pixel art in its own way; it's just taking the same 2D pixel art we all love but applying all of that to every single texture in a 3D space. Tomb Raider 1, for example. It's all pixel art, but not in the way you think it is.

Both are art styles born of limitation, limitation of the number of polygons that can be displayed on screen, the number of pixels, or the number of colours, difference is pixel art still holds appeal with a lot of people where early playstation era graphics are just kind of ugly. I mean compare Virtua Fighter and Street Fighter 2, which do you think looks better visually?

引用自 NBOX21
And as much as I hate to make the appeal to popularity I can't be the only one who feels this way as evident by the number of indie games that use the pixel art aesthetic when compared to those who try and emulate the PS1 style early 3D.
That's a bad comparison as 2D games are generally way easier to make compared to 3D games. Which is why you see so many indie games use 2D as the framework, pixelated or not, as there's a lot more to consider in a 3D space and it's a lot of work, especially for small studios or in some cases individuals.

Depends how detailed we are going in 3D, I guess there is less technical knowledge needed to get started in 2D than there is in 3D, but then there are 2D games that require more artistic skill than other games made in 3D, for instance Blasphemous which is 2D would require far more artistic skill than one of those Harvest Moon mobile games that is in 3D

引用自 NBOX21
For instance Goldeneye 64 may be the more technically advanced game using 3D models but in terms of control and gameplay a 2D platformer like Super Mario World has aged better as it still feels as smooth to play as any 2D platformer today.
Yet another bad comparison as that's comparing an FPS, something barely ever done before and is a lot more complex, to a platformer, a tried and true genre that's been done many times before with much simpler mechanics. Not to mention 2D and 3D games are fundamentally different anyway.

Thats not the point, not making a quality statement about the 2 games trying to provide an example of how something more technically advanced and released later can age poorer than something created before it.

Yes I understand that Goldeneye was created in an era where they were still trying to figure out to make a first person control scheme work with a controller where as Super Mario World was created after they had already had time to hone the 2D platformer experience, but what I am talking about is that Super Mario despite being the less technically advanced game has aged better due to the fact that you can still pick it up and play today and have fun with it where Goldeneye just feels kind of archaic.

引用自 NBOX21
Also, 3D games have their advantages over 2D - you can see what's ahead of you at all times with the only things obscuring your vision being bad camera angles and low draw distances, and some 3D games did a good job at alleviating both of those problems such as how Toy Story 2 and the Spyro trilogy handle level of detail. 2D games, meanwhile, are limited to visibility of what's on-screen which is usually only a few metres away and there's almost nothing you can do about that at all, which is especially problematic for fast paced games or those that sacrifice visibility for detail.

Yeah I understand that, if you read my post you will know I understand that, the jump from 2D to 3D was a necessary step to facilitate gameplay changes in many games, I am not arguing that 2D games are better, all I am saying is that early 3D games look like ass.
Xengre 2022 年 7 月 29 日 上午 9:22 
引用自 Greywolf
Not sure who Nobuo is but based on the samples you posted I don't think I would rank him particularly high, feels like with all the samples you posted I could find far better music in different games that capture the same theme and atmosphere, even if we are looking at musical composition in the Playstation One era Castlevania Symphony of the Night blows Nobuo out of the water.

Again this may be subjective but just not seeing the greatness of Nobuo here.
You will have to look Nobuo up, yourself, to get the full specifics but Nobuo Uematsu is most known for his work on the Final Fantasy franchise (he has worked on nearly every main numbered FF game as lead on, and at the least as one of its main composers).

He has worked on numerous other games and with the Black Mages band to perform live concerts, etc. You can read up a bit more about him here or by Google if you want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu

He is basically known as arguably the most impactful and famous video game composer in video game history, at least to date. His music has also breached top charts that typically only see classical music and/or rare pieces of extremely successful music from animated movies (studio ghibli, escaflowne, etc.).

Michiru Yamane is an incredible composer and her work on Castlevania was great as you mention, but your ranking it above what was presented is almost certainly a matter of a combination of primarily taste, but also because I only showed 3 songs from FF7 that were more reknowned which don't make up his entire portfolio. In contrast, you mentioned her greatest work, and almost the only one she is really known for as her scope of success is totally dwarfed by other major composers (not that it makes the few major successes she had any less impressive, granted). By contrast, Nobuo has by far the greatest accomplishments in terms of sheer number of iconic pieces than any other video composer ever and it isn't even close for second place. Further, his quality and sheer variety in work is arguably among the best. You will have to take him as a whole to get a better take on the situation because if you look at just pieces from FF7, or another game, rather than the whole it might be overly influenced by personal taste because there are going to be plenty of fans that will prefer one artist over another because of their favorite OST/games like Yoko Shimomura.

Check this out for a better understanding of the phenomenal gap between Nobuo and most other artists, or arguably even the "next greatest" video game composer behind him.
https://www.vgchartz.com/article/442073/vgchartzs-top-50-video-game-composers-5-1/

Regarding the work on Castlevania you mentioned, on a personal level I don't see it being comparable to Nobuo's work just listening stand alone even compared to the three offered songs despite going through the entire soundtrack when you mentioned it just to get a proper recall, but I especially don't recall it granting the sheer atmosphere and impact of Nobuo's work in FF7 or the other Final Fantasy games he has worked on. I'd pin it as consistently inferior, not just vs FF7, but compared to most titles he has worked on. This is personally (standalone) but also objectively (context, the scenes its used in for Castlevania unlike Nobuo's work only invoke basic atmosphere and don't truly correlate to their scenes and the work suffers from considerably weaker variety, enough so that many non-musicians could regard as "samey" which is one of the biggest limitations even among many great composers). For example, Aerith's theme upon her death or Sephiroth's One Winged Angel theme during the final boss fight are breathtakingly impactful when placed within their respective context, and in fact some of the most famous moments for video game music, period. This is all also to be noted back in reference to the sheer scale of his work on individual games, too, as I prior mentioned such as FF7's OST being nearly 400% longer than Castlevania's but overwhelmingly richer in variety and scope, yet this isn't exclusive to FF7 as he does this repeatedly in games. This is one of the reasons he is so popular and why Final Fantasy games get considerable bias from the industry for its music.

I only mention this much because you're unfamiliar with Nobuo, apparently, and it half directly relates to your question though Nobuo's impact is broader than just FF7 as a whole though his ability & fame definitely impacted FF7 as well. Whether or not he has any music you, personally, like you would have to look at his other pieces on other games, too. If you enjoyed FF7 Remake's music at all you likely enjoyed some of his work, as he worked considerably on it until he had to quit due to illness and has officially retired (though what he influenced, or what works he mainly did in the remake you would have to look up yourself, if its even listed online yet).
NBOX21 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 12:25 
Final Fantasy 7 has easily one of, if not my favourite video game soundtrack of all time. Not only are they phenomenal tracks to listen to on their own, but just about every single one perfectly fits the mood and emotions of the in-game situations you're in which further enhances player immersion in the world and story.

Whether you're being chased by Shinra officers on a motorbike down the highway, infiltrating the Shinra building itself (man, I can't get enough of that track), doing the bombing mission at the beginning, relaxing at Tifa's bar or especially exploring the world map in the early game, it all fits perfectly according to what's happening in-game. Music like this perfectly demonstrate that video games are more than just simple toys or sources of entertainment, but are also a form of art just like the best books, movies and music.

It's one thing to have a staggering variety of music in a single game, but it's another to make almost every single one of those tracks a treat for the ears the entire time, which is no small feat considering how many tracks there are overall. The official soundtrack CD which I also own myself, spans a total of 85 tracks and over 4 and a half hours worth of music on 4 CDs! I loved listening to it in-game, but even in my own time I still enjoy listening to it even when I'm not playing.
Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 5:20 
引用自 Xengre
引用自 Greywolf
Not sure who Nobuo is but based on the samples you posted I don't think I would rank him particularly high, feels like with all the samples you posted I could find far better music in different games that capture the same theme and atmosphere, even if we are looking at musical composition in the Playstation One era Castlevania Symphony of the Night blows Nobuo out of the water.

Again this may be subjective but just not seeing the greatness of Nobuo here.
You will have to look Nobuo up, yourself, to get the full specifics but Nobuo Uematsu is most known for his work on the Final Fantasy franchise (he has worked on nearly every main numbered FF game as lead on, and at the least as one of its main composers).

He has worked on numerous other games and with the Black Mages band to perform live concerts, etc. You can read up a bit more about him here or by Google if you want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu

He is basically known as arguably the most impactful and famous video game composer in video game history, at least to date. His music has also breached top charts that typically only see classical music and/or rare pieces of extremely successful music from animated movies (studio ghibli, escaflowne, etc.).

Michiru Yamane is an incredible composer and her work on Castlevania was great as you mention, but your ranking it above what was presented is almost certainly a matter of a combination of primarily taste, but also because I only showed 3 songs from FF7 that were more reknowned which don't make up his entire portfolio. In contrast, you mentioned her greatest work, and almost the only one she is really known for as her scope of success is totally dwarfed by other major composers (not that it makes the few major successes she had any less impressive, granted). By contrast, Nobuo has by far the greatest accomplishments in terms of sheer number of iconic pieces than any other video composer ever and it isn't even close for second place. Further, his quality and sheer variety in work is arguably among the best. You will have to take him as a whole to get a better take on the situation because if you look at just pieces from FF7, or another game, rather than the whole it might be overly influenced by personal taste because there are going to be plenty of fans that will prefer one artist over another because of their favorite OST/games like Yoko Shimomura.

Check this out for a better understanding of the phenomenal gap between Nobuo and most other artists, or arguably even the "next greatest" video game composer behind him.
https://www.vgchartz.com/article/442073/vgchartzs-top-50-video-game-composers-5-1/

Regarding the work on Castlevania you mentioned, on a personal level I don't see it being comparable to Nobuo's work just listening stand alone even compared to the three offered songs despite going through the entire soundtrack when you mentioned it just to get a proper recall, but I especially don't recall it granting the sheer atmosphere and impact of Nobuo's work in FF7 or the other Final Fantasy games he has worked on. I'd pin it as consistently inferior, not just vs FF7, but compared to most titles he has worked on. This is personally (standalone) but also objectively (context, the scenes its used in for Castlevania unlike Nobuo's work only invoke basic atmosphere and don't truly correlate to their scenes and the work suffers from considerably weaker variety, enough so that many non-musicians could regard as "samey" which is one of the biggest limitations even among many great composers). For example, Aerith's theme upon her death or Sephiroth's One Winged Angel theme during the final boss fight are breathtakingly impactful when placed within their respective context, and in fact some of the most famous moments for video game music, period. This is all also to be noted back in reference to the sheer scale of his work on individual games, too, as I prior mentioned such as FF7's OST being nearly 400% longer than Castlevania's but overwhelmingly richer in variety and scope, yet this isn't exclusive to FF7 as he does this repeatedly in games. This is one of the reasons he is so popular and why Final Fantasy games get considerable bias from the industry for its music.

I only mention this much because you're unfamiliar with Nobuo, apparently, and it half directly relates to your question though Nobuo's impact is broader than just FF7 as a whole though his ability & fame definitely impacted FF7 as well. Whether or not he has any music you, personally, like you would have to look at his other pieces on other games, too. If you enjoyed FF7 Remake's music at all you likely enjoyed some of his work, as he worked considerably on it until he had to quit due to illness and has officially retired (though what he influenced, or what works he mainly did in the remake you would have to look up yourself, if its even listed online yet).

To be honest I don't really follow composers so much as I do individual music pieces, it does not really matter to me how prolific somebody has been in the industry or how many games they have composed for, all that really matter is if there is a piece of music that I like, most of the time I don't even know the name of the composer. With Nobuo I am sure if I scoured his library of music I would find something I like but just judging Final Fantasy 7 based on it's music composition none of the pieces there stand out as particularly great to me, this may be a matter of taste or bias on your part depending on it's impact on you at the time but for me I really don't see anything all that special here. Aerith's theme just feels to simple without anything behind it and one winged Angel just seems overly pompous and grating, I get the peacefulness of Aerith's theme and the stressful calamity of Sephiroth's theme but these are probably the 2 easiest themes to convey via music, I just don't get anything beyond that though.

You also bring up the length of the soundtrack as if that means something but I always prefer quality over quantity
最後修改者:Greywolf; 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 5:21
Xengre 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 6:26 
引用自 Greywolf
To be honest I don't really follow composers so much as I do individual music pieces, it does not really matter to me how prolific somebody has been in the industry or how many games they have composed for, all that really matter is if there is a piece of music that I like, most of the time I don't even know the name of the composer.

This is ultimately what matters in the end. The topic of Nobuo, itself, is just in reference to the main thread topic and part of FF7's success but no matter how amazing Nobuo is it doesn't mean he will be liked or the favorite of everyone so I totally get you.

引用自 Greywolf
You also bring up the length of the soundtrack as if that means something but I always prefer quality over quantity
The length and quantity was brought up with regards to the fact that such high quality was maintained on top of sheer length and quantity, all in addition to appropriate context and considerable variety.

You mention Aerith's theme being simple but hers is one of deep emotion that is utilized only three times during the entire game yet is one of the most famous musical pieces in gaming history. It's yearning, gentle, and memorable despite its simplicity.

One Winged Angel is of similar notoriety in the industry. Uematsu had not been trained or been in an orchestra prior to composing "One-Winged Angel", but he wanted to keep the orchestral music atmosphere and be able to "rock it" and have a thick orchestral feel to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BzkrgVivk4
It is certainly not a simple piece. You can read up a bit more here https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/One-Winged_Angel_(theme) but it has a great deal of depth in relation to the game, Sephiroth, events, and associations with real world symbolism, language, and inspirations.

Of course, taken out of context (not in the in-game scene it was intended for) if its not your type of music then it is going to no doubt lose a lot of its value, especially because a lot of Nobuo's video game music is context specific unlike Castlevania where it isn't designed purely within context but is simpler standalone inserted into the scene as just largely background theme rather than a true cohesive whole (which makes sense as Yamane's work is largely extremely specific and thematic). Funny enough, Yamane cites Nobuo Uematsu and Yoko Kanno as two of the artists she really enjoys, though her music doesn't particularly take any inspirations from them as far as I know.
Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 8:17 
引用自 Xengre
You mention Aerith's theme being simple but hers is one of deep emotion that is utilized only three times during the entire game yet is one of the most famous musical pieces in gaming history. It's yearning, gentle, and memorable despite its simplicity.

Yeah I get that is the themes they were going for with that music but it just feels like I have heard a lot of music that captures this sort of essence much better than Aerith's theme. To me Aerith's theme feels like an inferior version of a much better song.

Also in regards to One Winged Angel however I do not regard that as simple, in fact I kind of have the opposite criticism for that one in that it is overly pompous and tries to cram too much in without really having any nice rhythm or flow, it feels like a messy composition that evokes little more than stress and danger kind of like the jaws or the psycho theme.

引用自 Xengre
Of course, taken out of context (not in the in-game scene it was intended for) if its not your type of music then it is going to no doubt lose a lot of its value, especially because a lot of Nobuo's video game music is context specific unlike Castlevania where it isn't designed purely within context but is simpler standalone inserted into the scene as just largely background theme rather than a true cohesive whole (which makes sense as Yamane's work is largely extremely specific and thematic).

Yeah I can get that, there really aren't many story scenes in Symphony of the Night and the music in Symphony of the Night is mostly about background atmosphere, but even in setting the mood for a specific scene I still see other games that do it better, a good example is the trial in Chrono Trigger
ryu600RR 2022 年 7 月 29 日 下午 9:26 
because it's the first of its kind, and sets the bar for everything else that comes after

and that's all you need to know
NBOX21 2022 年 7 月 30 日 上午 12:33 
引用自 Greywolf
You also bring up the length of the soundtrack as if that means something but I always prefer quality over quantity
Normally, so would I, but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk-lA12FBk
In the case of FF7, we got both quality and quantity.
Mako 2022 年 7 月 30 日 上午 12:47 
Yea, the game didnt age well in pretty much every "technical" way. Visuals, music quality, gameplay, story presentation. It doesnt shine in any of those areas.
What makes it great is the essence inside its now rough shell.
For example music. Yes, it sounds poor in OG, courtesy of its original MIDI nature, when disc data only contained notes to be played by consumer's harware. Instead of mixing everythig in studio. But its the melody is what counts. Uematsu managed to create timeless pieces for pretty much every game he worked on. His music received endless official and unofficial reorchestrations, and frequently performed live. 90%+ of Remake's OST is reorchestration of Uematsu's work. And unlike gameplay it stays very close to OG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar0VVPBE03s&list=PLh93Av0AE7bCZIvWIsoX5-a-0r3dtEhU7&index=3
Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 30 日 上午 2:15 
引用自 Mako
For example music. Yes, it sounds poor in OG, courtesy of its original MIDI nature, when disc data only contained notes to be played by consumer's harware. Instead of mixing everythig in studio. But its the melody is what counts.

But the playstation was the first console to be capable of higher quality audio? Sure there have been a lot of improvements since but you still get a far richer quality of sound than the consoles that came before it, improvements since then have been pretty minor at least to the untrained ear. And even despite the inferior audio quality there are still tracks from the SNES and even the NES that I would consider enjoyable to listen to, Chrono Trigger has quite a good soundtrack despite it's limitations and even with the limitations of the NES they managed to squeeze out some pretty good tracks in games like Castlevania 3 and whatnot.

Not saying that the sound track to Final Fantasy 7 is bad by any stretch, I just don't find it that good or memorable when comparing it to other games, perhaps the music hits harder for you as it is accompanied story beats that meant something to you as a child but I guess as somebody who did not really care much for the story the music does not really have much meaning to me,

I guess if you have not played or did not care for MGS3 you would probably feel the same way about the instumental version of Snake Eater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDY-PxP-2CU

Way more impactful scene than Aerith's death :p
Greywolf 2022 年 7 月 30 日 上午 2:26 
引用自 ryu600RR
because it's the first of its kind, and sets the bar for everything else that comes after

and that's all you need to know

First of what exactly? What exactly did Final Fantasy 7 do first that no other game did before it?
Mako 2022 年 7 月 30 日 上午 2:48 
I never cared much for Aerith death scene. While the story is really good at high level its presentation (execution) in OG is... lacking. It doesnt develop strong bond between player and most characters in a way you can see in more modern games. The best part of OG's story presentation is its humor. It effortlessly mixes comedy into a serious plot. But getting player connected isnt its strong suit.
This was fixed in expanded universe. Crisis Core ending feels 10x more emotional than entirety of FF7. And I believe this has a backwards effect on how most OG players percieve FF7. They aready have all that extra character development from expanded universe game imprinted into their heads. Its not their fault ofc, you cant just erase that knowledge. And I believe this is also why you arent on the same page with everyone else.
ᴛᴀʟᴜ 🐦 2022 年 8 月 1 日 上午 12:00 
I liked that FF7 had everything story wise, comedy, horror, action. Unfortunately FF7 Remake removed all horror elements to keep a lower age rating.
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