TEKKEN 7

TEKKEN 7

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Iridius 2021 年 1 月 4 日 下午 4:12
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Korean backdashing is a terrible "mechanic" Change my mind.
If Tekken wants its success to continue, movement shouldn't be reserved for the top players only.

Edit: Wow thanks for the steam gold kind strangers!
最后由 Iridius 编辑于; 2021 年 1 月 21 日 上午 6:59
引用自 Caliente:
As a Lili main thank god KBD gonna be removing. Lili can't even KBD in Tekken 7. Also KBD movement seems like autistic from outside and not fun to watch.
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正在显示第 166 - 180 条,共 5,012 条留言
Azzo 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 5:38 
引用自 Ryoda
引用自 Azzo
Youd be hard surprised that the amount of people not wanting to call for change even though it could of made a better difference. Old gen players will call people to grow the fk up and adapt yet it's actually them the ones stuck in their comfort zone. Prime example is smash community where they actually fail to adapt to the newer iterations because of discomfort on stepping outta their comfort zones so in a way who's really the ones not trying to adapt here lol

Who is the judge on whether or not that change would make the game better?
Are you qualified to make such judgement? It's your opinion and you say it as if that's fact.
Get off your high horse maybe?
Whos is there to say it wouldn't? Why is there such negativity towards change? In case you misread what I wrote I said that it COULD of made a better difference so how's that a fact that it will be but would it really hurt to find out?
最后由 Azzo 编辑于; 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 5:40
C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 5:48 
引用自 Azzo
引用自 Ryoda

Who is the judge on whether or not that change would make the game better?
Are you qualified to make such judgement? It's your opinion and you say it as if that's fact.
Get off your high horse maybe?
Whos is there to say it wouldn't? Why is there such negativity towards change?

Because except a few specific situations, doing what scrubs suggest simply isn't a good idea.

Look at the backlash Smash got when they removed dash cancelling and some other mechanics, because "the game should be more casual focused".

Look at LoL, while it's a huge esport, when it came to the competitive side, Dota 2 was always ahead, why? Because Riot wants to balance the game for everyone, and that always caused problems on either the casual side or the competitive side, while Dota never had that type of backlash, as it was understood that balance will be made to keep the game balanced for the good players.

Or what about the pros from SFV bashing Capcom for making the game too accessible.

The problem is, removing KBD will not make you a better player, it will just take away from the good players. If Namco wants Tekken to be a casual party game first, then they'll balance towards that, if they want it to be a competitive game, they'll balance towards that.

You think it's bad because you're a scrub, good players want it kept. Namco wants the game to be competitive, so from an objective point of view, it would hurt the game to remove it.

It would be like removing Nina or Lee's cancels in a way.
ARTSQ 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 6:10 
引用自 I:P アヌビス
Look at the backlash Smash got when they removed dash cancelling and some other mechanics, because "the game should be more casual focused".

Look at LoL, while it's a huge esport, when it came to the competitive side, Dota 2 was always ahead, why? Because Riot wants to balance the game for everyone, and that always caused problems on either the casual side or the competitive side, while Dota never had that type of backlash, as it was understood that balance will be made to keep the game balanced for the good players.
Yeah, mate. You're absolutely rigth. Except one thing - most of players actually don't give a f**k about competitive players backlash. And games are made for players - not for sport. Cybersport is only an addition, absolutelly not necessary.

Nintendo got that "backlash" - and sold tons of copies.
Riot balanced game for everyone - and got stable playerbase, while Dota2 has to "invent" (i.e. take from community) things like AutoChess to keep interest in game.

Maybe elitism is not something players want in game, huh?
Zagryzaec 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 6:12 
What exactly removing kbd will take away from good players?
Azzo 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 6:16 
引用自 I:P アヌビス
引用自 Azzo
Whos is there to say it wouldn't? Why is there such negativity towards change?

You think it's bad because you're a scrub, good players want it kept. Namco wants the game to be competitive, so from an objective point of view, it would hurt the game to remove it.

It would be like removing Nina or Lee's cancels in a way.
Pretty bad analogy because you just take it outta context so you compare it with characters hence with your nina and lee examples when KBD is a system mechanic... And wow so this is the level Tekken has stooped to? So asking for change auto makes THOSE people a scrub . Oh god forbid any sort of scrubs to make comments or even speak!
Azzo 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 6:18 
引用自 ARTSQ
引用自 I:P アヌビス
Look at the backlash Smash got when they removed dash cancelling and some other mechanics, because "the game should be more casual focused".

Look at LoL, while it's a huge esport, when it came to the competitive side, Dota 2 was always ahead, why? Because Riot wants to balance the game for everyone, and that always caused problems on either the casual side or the competitive side, while Dota never had that type of backlash, as it was understood that balance will be made to keep the game balanced for the good players.
Yeah, mate. You're absolutely rigth. Except one thing - most of players actually don't give a f**k about competitive players backlash. And games are made for players - not for sport. Cybersport is only an addition, absolutelly not necessary.

Nintendo got that "backlash" - and sold tons of copies.
Riot balanced game for everyone - and got stable playerbase, while Dota2 has to "invent" (i.e. take from community) things like AutoChess to keep interest in game.

Maybe elitism is not something players want in game, huh?
What a boss reply dayum bro!
[dinky-fu] 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:02 
引用自 Zagryzaec
What exactly removing kbd will take away from good players?

It seems as though people are intentionally misunderstanding each others points of views to me, but maybe thats me misunderstanding yalls' points of views, i dunno.

I'd say that there are multiple options available in regards to BDC, one of which is to leave it as it is of course. Another though would be to let all players just double tap back again to backdash again.

As for this entire glitch/exploit/adopted and intended mechanic argument - sure thats all true today, but it could be fixed, right? A few lines of code could keep the cancelling of a backdash into a crouch AND the crouch into a backdash, but have a cooldown on the backdash itself, which would prevent 2 backdashes within the usual backdash window. This would seem to give the original intended behaviour of cancelling each state into the other, but not give this unintended level of movement.

Now if the level of movement IS intended, then they could simply let another b,b perform a backdash, let a backdash cancel into another backdash. That seems pretty simple to me.

Now as for the reason that none of these options will be implemented - the real issue at hand here - players who are good at this skill like to feel superior to players who arent - which is fair considering the fact that they had to climb this mountain / molehill themselves back in the day. And players who havent mastered this thing yet see how weirdly abstract and seemingly unrelated to combat the input is to do something which seems like it should be very simple to do - move back.

To a new player, learning that moving backwards is behind this kind of input is like having to chicken EVERY non-elbow or knee attack you do - imagine if asuka autoparried every attack. The people who mastered that would be here saying 'git gud' etc, and 'once you can do the input it feels very natural - there is no problem here kid'. But you're left with a feeling of '...but why?'

Sry, coffee time here, I'm a new player who cant KDB fluently in a match, but i kinda like having weird abstract unintended glitchy mechanics to learn - rocket jumping, walljumping...im even loving high knockback wands in noita for flying around the map its great. I can see both sides of this discussion and id like both sides to meet in the middle to discuss, but it seems like people are just shouting their points across a chasm.

tldr - dont go on forums during your morning coffee in lockdown
Dan Smith 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:14 
引用自 dinky-fu
引用自 Zagryzaec
What exactly removing kbd will take away from good players?

It seems as though people are intentionally misunderstanding each others points of views to me, but maybe thats me misunderstanding yalls' points of views, i dunno.

I'd say that there are multiple options available in regards to BDC, one of which is to leave it as it is of course. Another though would be to let all players just double tap back again to backdash again.

As for this entire glitch/exploit/adopted and intended mechanic argument - sure thats all true today, but it could be fixed, right? A few lines of code could keep the cancelling of a backdash into a crouch AND the crouch into a backdash, but have a cooldown on the backdash itself, which would prevent 2 backdashes within the usual backdash window. This would seem to give the original intended behaviour of cancelling each state into the other, but not give this unintended level of movement.

Now if the level of movement IS intended, then they could simply let another b,b perform a backdash, let a backdash cancel into another backdash. That seems pretty simple to me.

Now as for the reason that none of these options will be implemented - the real issue at hand here - players who are good at this skill like to feel superior to players who arent - which is fair considering the fact that they had to climb this mountain / molehill themselves back in the day. And players who havent mastered this thing yet see how weirdly abstract and seemingly unrelated to combat the input is to do something which seems like it should be very simple to do - move back.

To a new player, learning that moving backwards is behind this kind of input is like having to chicken EVERY non-elbow or knee attack you do - imagine if asuka autoparried every attack. The people who mastered that would be here saying 'git gud' etc, and 'once you can do the input it feels very natural - there is no problem here kid'. But you're left with a feeling of '...but why?'

Sry, coffee time here, I'm a new player who cant KDB fluently in a match, but i kinda like having weird abstract unintended glitchy mechanics to learn - rocket jumping, walljumping...im even loving high knockback wands in noita for flying around the map its great. I can see both sides of this discussion and id like both sides to meet in the middle to discuss, but it seems like people are just shouting their points across a chasm.

tldr - dont go on forums during your morning coffee in lockdown

...... AGAIN it's only b,b, d/b.

IT'S NOT HARD.
[dinky-fu] 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:18 
That's a pretty inane statement if you're being sincere. If you can do it easily, then you can't say how easy or hard it is to use in a match for someone who can't do it - your opinion is only valid from the 'can do' side of the fence.

You're also missing the main points that people are raising - it's not just about difficulty - its also about it seeming like tangent to the actual learning curve of learning a fighting game. All the points are listed already, you can read them if you do want to talk about the points and not just try to start fights in a forum post
最后由 [dinky-fu] 编辑于; 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:20
C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:25 
引用自 ARTSQ
引用自 I:P アヌビス
Look at the backlash Smash got when they removed dash cancelling and some other mechanics, because "the game should be more casual focused".

Look at LoL, while it's a huge esport, when it came to the competitive side, Dota 2 was always ahead, why? Because Riot wants to balance the game for everyone, and that always caused problems on either the casual side or the competitive side, while Dota never had that type of backlash, as it was understood that balance will be made to keep the game balanced for the good players.
Yeah, mate. You're absolutely rigth. Except one thing - most of players actually don't give a f**k about competitive players backlash. And games are made for players - not for sport. Cybersport is only an addition, absolutelly not necessary.

Nintendo got that "backlash" - and sold tons of copies.
Riot balanced game for everyone - and got stable playerbase, while Dota2 has to "invent" (i.e. take from community) things like AutoChess to keep interest in game.

Maybe elitism is not something players want in game, huh?

How do you know that Riot has a stable player base? They never show numbers.

And yes, Valve is so bad for buying so e thing successful off of someone, meanwhile Riot be like [insert "can I copy your homework" meme here].

Regardless, you say that players don't want stuff like that, how do you know? Heard of Project M?

Project M was a fan made mod for Smash that added back all the stuff Nintendo removed, and guess what? Project M was featured in tournaments instead of Nintendo's version. Players actually wanted that "elitist stuff".

Smash is the only fighting game at EVO to always have 2 entries, so yes, actually players want that, as Melee seems to always be held to higher standards by the Smash community, so yes, it seems that if given the choice, players do prefer the "elitist stuff".



引用自 Azzo
引用自 I:P アヌビス

You think it's bad because you're a scrub, good players want it kept. Namco wants the game to be competitive, so from an objective point of view, it would hurt the game to remove it.

It would be like removing Nina or Lee's cancels in a way.
Pretty bad analogy because you just take it outta context so you compare it with characters hence with your nina and lee examples when KBD is a system mechanic... And wow so this is the level Tekken has stooped to? So asking for change auto makes THOSE people a scrub . Oh god forbid any sort of scrubs to make comments or even speak!

My point about Nina and Lee is that they also have their cancels pretty much the same way KBD exists.

You can cancel moves into side steps and cancel side steps into moves. Just as you can cancel a backdash into a crouch and a crouch into a backdash.

I don't know the notations for Nina or Lee, so I'll use Lili as example. Lili's b1 loops are like this:

B1f to have b1 go into Dew Glide, tap u to cancel Dew Glide into a side step, then cancel the side step into another b1f. If done correctly, you don't even see the transitions into Dew Glide or side step, she just looks b1, and the inputs look like this: b1f~u~b1f~u~b1f....

Nina's butterfly loops are like that as well.

Crouch cancelling is just that as well, a cancel that allows you to skip the ws transitions. You can cancel a crouch into side step, backdash or forward dash, and as we saw above, you can cancel a a side step into a move. Crouch cancelling is just cancelling the crouch into a side step then a move. I use it a lot on Anna, Kuni and Alisa, and from what I heard, Miguel relies on crouch cancels a lot.

That's pretty much what KBD is as well, so if you want that gone, all the cancels need to go. Just because some characters use some cancels more than others doesn't give that cancel an excuse, but of those are OK, KBD is also OK, as its the same thing.
[dinky-fu] 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:34 
This is a good point - a lot of cancels are a part of the kit that certain characters have. There are arguments that could be made against the basic concept - why not let every character cancel every move? Cancels are a powerful tool for sure, and it seems as though they are gifted to characters with full awareness of how useful (or useless) they can be in the right hands and factored in to the overall balance of the character.

But i dont think the issue is with the basic idea of cancelling, its with the fact that such an essential part of movement - moving backwards - is behind an obtuse (an totally unexplained within the game, i should add) input to use an exploit.

I have a question - what would be wrong with allowing another b,b cancel from a backdash into another backdash? Maybe answering that question would get us closer to mutually agreeable conclusions
最后由 [dinky-fu] 编辑于; 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:36
C.C. 折オリ枝 の 夫 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:37 
引用自 dinky-fu
This is a good point - a lot of cancels are a part of the kit that certain characters have. There are arguments that could be made against the basic concept - why not let every character cancel every move? Cancels are a powerful tool for sure, and it seems as though they are gifted to characters with full awareness of how useful (or useless) they can be in the right hands and factored in to the overall balance of the character.

But i dont think the issue is with the basic idea of cancelling, its with the fact that such an essential part of movement - moving backwards - is behind an obtuse (an totally unexplained within the game, i should add) input to use an exploit.

Everyone can crouch cancel, everyone can cancel stuff, it's just the level of need. Do I need crouch cancel for Anna? Yes, quite so tbh thanks to her RD. Do I need it on Alisa? Not at all, but it's helpful.

Some things just require them more than others, and are balanced around it. Movement is balanced around KBD as well, if you noticed, every character does it differently. Stuff that works against Kuni's KBD doesn't work against Zafina's, and vice versa.

So removing it would require the whole game to be rebalanced from the ground up.
[dinky-fu] 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 7:50 
Yeah thats an unavoidable point - removing it would change the whole balance of the game. But the question seems to be about why the input is so abstract and elitist?

IF the input is super easy as Dan Smith is trying to say, then there should be no problem with also allowing b,b to cancel bd into another bd (but correct me if im missing something here).

IF the input is difficult and is intended to be that way - is there some justification other than making people who kbd fluently feel superior to people who can't?

And if theres some situation where someone's inputs would be affected by b,b leading to another backdash (i can't think of any, but theres no point in afflicting kdb experts with unnecessary baggage) then it could just be an option in the control setup screen - very easy to add.
Dan Smith 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 8:10 
引用自 dinky-fu
Yeah thats an unavoidable point - removing it would change the whole balance of the game. But the question seems to be about why the input is so abstract and elitist?

IF the input is super easy as Dan Smith is trying to say, then there should be no problem with also allowing b,b to cancel bd into another bd (but correct me if im missing something here).

IF the input is difficult and is intended to be that way - is there some justification other than making people who kbd fluently feel superior to people who can't?

And if theres some situation where someone's inputs would be affected by b,b leading to another backdash (i can't think of any, but theres no point in afflicting kdb experts with unnecessary baggage) then it could just be an option in the control setup screen - very easy to add.

Yeah keep whining.

Input is super easy and you want to complain.
[dinky-fu] 2021 年 1 月 19 日 上午 8:13 
If it's easy then there's no problem with letting people use b,b as the input - your point would be invalid if you were actually trying to make one.
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发帖日期: 2021 年 1 月 4 日 下午 4:12
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