Is Tekken becoming a 50/50 'dumb' game?

[Mincomics]

I noticed that Tekken 7 and the latest additions to the roster are simple characters with 50/50 'mashing the button', (I mean that there is not a wavedash before the 50/50)...
Is tekken going in the direction of a 2.5D game heavily based on 50/50?

[JChills]

Publicado originalmente por Dirk69Diggler:

This is my first Tekken game and after 40 hours of playing it, half of which was spent sitting in menus, I have formed an ultimate opinion.

TEKKEN
IS
A
PARTY
GAME

Alright, you're taking this too far. Tekken is far from a party game even with the new changes.

[Nox]

Game has become stupid and bloated. Goo-bye for now tekken, we cant be together at the moment T-T

[smokeymcpot]

@JChills

I was only joking but as the saying goes there's a grain of truth in every joke. Obviously, Tekken is a skill-based game. If it wasn't then we wouldn't have the same group of people winning all the time. However, as someone who never played Tekken before I have an impression at the moment that Tekken 7 is way more party than SFV. To me, skill means using knowledge of the game, knowledge of your and your opponent's character and beating them with intent. After 600 hours with SFV it appears very doable. You just need time to practice and learn. An average SFV character has about 30 moves. Tekken 7, however, goes from 60 to 180 moves (+ transitions). To me, at this moment, it appears humanly impossible to learn all the frame data, hitboxes, and interactions for most of the people. It might be possible for someone who played this franchise for years but how is to 99% of other Tekken players? I picked Lei. If I was persistent it would still take forever to learn him and be decent. How is my opponent supposed to do that? How can my opponent beat my Lei with intent if he is only familiar with about 20% of Lei's moves?

[Xero_Daxter]

Kazuya's Hellsweep now tracks.

Goodbye sidesteppers. You will be missed. 1997-2020.

[/^^\461|[ 834||]

Actually tracking Hellsweep was a thing in Tekken all the way up until Tekken 6,

[/^^\461|[ 834||]

Publicado originalmente por Dirk69Diggler:

@JChills

I was only joking but as the saying goes there's a grain of truth in every joke. Obviously, Tekken is a skill-based game. If it wasn't then we wouldn't have the same group of people winning all the time. However, as someone who never played Tekken before I have an impression at the moment that Tekken 7 is way more party than SFV. To me, skill means using knowledge of the game, knowledge of your and your opponent's character and beating them with intent. After 600 hours with SFV it appears very doable. You just need time to practice and learn. An average SFV character has about 30 moves. Tekken 7, however, goes from 60 to 180 moves (+ transitions). To me, at this moment, it appears humanly impossible to learn all the frame data, hitboxes, and interactions for most of the people. It might be possible for someone who played this franchise for years but how is to 99% of other Tekken players? I picked Lei. If I was persistent it would still take forever to learn him and be decent. How is my opponent supposed to do that? How can my opponent beat my Lei with intent if he is only familiar with about 20% of Lei's moves?

You may be overwhelmed like most new players, but you do not have to remember 100's of strings, you don't need to memorise frame data for every move, you are failing to recognise the system in Tekken which will let you deduct these things without looking them up.

Just as an example, every jab is very very close frame wise, so are sweeps, df2's, all the fundamental move sets and tools everyone shares follows a system of "Tekken". If anything, what you have to memorize or remember is all the rare instances that the universals do not apply. There is an overlaying system of mechanics and theory to the game you are neglecting by being overwhelmed by things like the move-list and amount of characters, and you're probably putting expectations on yourself that pro players don't even do - because there is no need to.

You don't need to memorise every move and every frame. In Tekken most of the move list is just stupid stuff like the most basic moves which everyone has. And even then, not every move will be getting used. The higher the level, I'd say the more refined the move list becomes, and easy to digest. Adaptability is a big part of this game, it's not purely a mechanical "learn all the frames" "copy the style of everyone else" that will only get you so far. Real high level Tekken comes from creativity. You seem like you are playing everything on paper and nothing by heart. SFV is good for fundamentals but Tekken takes it to the next level and adds many new layers of strategy and play than is in SF. It is more complex, but in some ways it is actually more simple. Learning frame data in Tekken is incredibly simple compared to the way newcomers look at it as just a pure hard memorisation of everything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKHgI2CLeTM

Watch this video and understand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45Iqxq9svZQ

Also this video for the pure fundamentals of it all. These two videos can teach you pretty much everything about frame data

[/^^\461|[ 834||]

Just as another example, thinking you need to memorise every move and every frame is silly, because the moves that are safe are just gonna be "safe" - there is no need to memorise frame data on things like that. There are ways to conceptualise moves and understand the game outside of numerical data, now the metrics are important, but by no means going to carry you purely alone, there are players who clock 1000's of hours, study all the frames, know the metrics to a tee - but they still aren't even close to the best. The mind games, conditioning, yomi, all the things more directly present in Street Fighters extreme simplicity is still taking place just behind a more obfuscating system of overlaying mechanics and options. Did you know AK, one of the best players in the world, has never formally studied frame data in his life?

[/^^\461|[ 834||]

Every character in the game has a mix up and 50/50. But a 50/50 is just a term people use mechanically, truly, there is no such thing as a 50/50 in this game, nothing is truly random, and especially not humans. People who think it is as simple as a coin toss are not good at this game and do not understand how to read an opponent and know a move is coming before they have even put in the input.

Tekken is much more about mind reading and yomi than other games in the FGC, it's not like Soul Calibur at all - now that is real Rock Paper Scissors - Tekken is nothing like that. In Tekken, every second of every match is downloading data on your opponent and making a profile of them. Also to notice trends, as I believe Kazuya is only demolishing low ranks at the moment, because a good player can see the informtation in the buffs, or know the trends of cheese lesser players use, so they can just keep that in mind then counter it appropriately. It's not a game you can just decide "I'm gonna flow chart everyone" because if the other person knows the flow chart - you're screwed. Kazuya probably only imbalances the game a lot at lower ranks. If you have a brain and know what is coming before the fact then it is ineffective and you shall beat them. That is why creativity and not mechanical metrics and flow chart plays will always be at high level Tekken

[🔞𝕂𝔸𝕋𝔸ℕ𝔸🔞]

Publicado originalmente por MinComics - Tekken video montage:

I noticed that Tekken 7 and the latest additions to the roster are simple characters with 50/50 'mashing the button', (I mean that there is not a wavedash before the 50/50)...
Is tekken going in the direction of a 2.5D game heavily based on 50/50?

Short answer "YES" its strings then d*ck punch XD you can low parry it tho.

This game is online cancer :D you ca npractice stuff in training then you cant use it online :D
Offline with friends, good low blocks and parrys. Online i sometimes miss the timing XD

Full of marco kazuyas noob char like Ling that can even duck mid punishers XD online its only yolo.

Publicado originalmente por Dirk69Diggler:

This is my first Tekken game and after 40 hours of playing it, half of which was spent sitting in menus, I have formed an ultimate opinion.

TEKKEN
IS
A
PARTY
GAME

10/10

[🔞𝕂𝔸𝕋𝔸ℕ𝔸🔞]

Publicado originalmente por Ahab:

Publicado originalmente por Dirk69Diggler:

@JChills

I was only joking but as the saying goes there's a grain of truth in every joke. Obviously, Tekken is a skill-based game. If it wasn't then we wouldn't have the same group of people winning all the time. However, as someone who never played Tekken before I have an impression at the moment that Tekken 7 is way more party than SFV. To me, skill means using knowledge of the game, knowledge of your and your opponent's character and beating them with intent. After 600 hours with SFV it appears very doable. You just need time to practice and learn. An average SFV character has about 30 moves. Tekken 7, however, goes from 60 to 180 moves (+ transitions). To me, at this moment, it appears humanly impossible to learn all the frame data, hitboxes, and interactions for most of the people. It might be possible for someone who played this franchise for years but how is to 99% of other Tekken players? I picked Lei. If I was persistent it would still take forever to learn him and be decent. How is my opponent supposed to do that? How can my opponent beat my Lei with intent if he is only familiar with about 20% of Lei's moves?

You may be overwhelmed like most new players, but you do not have to remember 100's of strings, you don't need to memorise frame data for every move, you are failing to recognise the system in Tekken which will let you deduct these things without looking them up.

Just as an example, every jab is very very close frame wise, so are sweeps, df2's, all the fundamental move sets and tools everyone shares follows a system of "Tekken". If anything, what you have to memorize or remember is all the rare instances that the universals do not apply. There is an overlaying system of mechanics and theory to the game you are neglecting by being overwhelmed by things like the move-list and amount of characters, and you're probably putting expectations on yourself that pro players don't even do - because there is no need to.

You don't need to memorise every move and every frame. In Tekken most of the move list is just stupid stuff like the most basic moves which everyone has. And even then, not every move will be getting used. The higher the level, I'd say the more refined the move list becomes, and easy to digest. Adaptability is a big part of this game, it's not purely a mechanical "learn all the frames" "copy the style of everyone else" that will only get you so far. Real high level Tekken comes from creativity. You seem like you are playing everything on paper and nothing by heart. SFV is good for fundamentals but Tekken takes it to the next level and adds many new layers of strategy and play than is in SF. It is more complex, but in some ways it is actually more simple. Learning frame data in Tekken is incredibly simple compared to the way newcomers look at it as just a pure hard memorisation of everything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKHgI2CLeTM

Watch this video and understand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45Iqxq9svZQ

Also this video for the pure fundamentals of it all. These two videos can teach you pretty much everything about frame data

Iam too lazy to read youre sh*t, if you didnt even mentioned Online =/= Offline its not even worth watching. Play with youre Rl buddys and learn how to play.

Play online and learn how to party hard. Best example. King grapples you, you break it you dont get even + frames XD that game is full offensive just grapple and hope the enemy cant get the timing right and if he can d4 or something like that XD

[❤Simone Pianetti❤]

when was tekken a non 50/50 fighting game?

Actually I know only 1 fg without mixup and it failed hard

[Mincomics]

Publicado originalmente por Ahab:

Did you know AK, one of the best players in the world, has never formally studied frame data in his life?

cool

[Mincomics]

Publicado originalmente por Oberisuku:

when was tekken a non 50/50 fighting game?

Actually I know only 1 fg without mixup and it failed hard

I have to mention two old legendary, successful and basically 50/50 free games:
- MKII
- Killer Instinct 1

Also, basically juggle free. The second could be inspiring for the T8 developers because of the nice combo-sistem: (unsafe opening, combo, connector, combo, closing). There was also a combo Breaker, to perform chosing the right button, countering the particular combo active in that moment.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

Uh what?

Both of those games have 50/50s lol

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

You dont remember the classic MK2 subzero juggle:

Freeze > uppercut > Jump kick in air > ground freeze under wakeup > uppercut into corner > slide or mid in the corner?

Come on now.

Do you understand what a 50/50 even is? Could you describe a situation for us?