The REAL tier list

[Irigy Kutya]

This is exactly what I always told about tier lists. Pro level stuff doesn't really apply to CASUALS who play ONLINE. It's almost like a different game. One can never achieve the level of players who do this like a full time job and of course competing offline (or on 5 bar, stable korean servers). So saying X character is S tier because some pros won tournaments with it, and Y is ♥♥♥♥ tier because you don't see it on tournaments doesn't really mean anything for us.

And I also think game design should adapt to the casual needs beause they are the big part of the player base, and the 5 million copy sold is not sold for the few pro players, so money comes from us, not from the pros. So if 90% of the players has an issue with a certain character, that is bad game design, and it doesn't matter pros can overcome it. But that's another discussion I guess.

https://youtu.be/8Wo3Xg1OySE

[Schizm]

Originally posted by Hidan:

And I also think game design should adapt to the casual needs beause they are the big part of the player base, and the 5 million copy sold is not sold for the few pro players, so money comes from us, not from the pros. So if 90% of the players has an issue with a certain character, that is bad game design, and it doesn't matter pros can overcome it. But that's another discussion I guess.

No... Because these casual players will eventually abandon the title and the only people left are the hardcore audience. If you balance and change the game based on casuals these players are left with a inferior product at the end of the day.

Designing for the lowest common denominator is not good design that's how you end up with the mess that is the AAA industry. Product that focus far to much on production value and marketing than they do on actual gameplay.

There is also a concept in competitive video games called the "Scrub Killers" characters or strategies that tend to catch un-experience players off guard but that tend to be completely useless or weak the better you get at the game. Mashing wake up DPs in SF, P90 rushes in CS, grabs in Tekken, the list goes on. Nerfing these things would just mean less interesting things to do when you actually get better which is the journey and goal with PvP games.

[Pretzel von Schnitzel]

I will not going to watch 40+ minutes of his another tier list video, but creating a tier list based on Win-Loss data only is a very bad idea. You can be a king of low ranks with just few annoying moves, but lose hard above low ranks. Was it PC data? Savescummers with 99% win rate?
He said in the beginning of this video about beginner-intermediate level, where most players are. I do agree with it, but you can have 10 matches in total and 8 of them can be wins. What about playtime and so on?

Leroy was too strong before patches. It was obvious that this character win ratio was very high. I assume that he is still good.
Alisa is a stupid gimmicky character. Always was. If you believe in things like "honest" character, then Alisa is the opposite of this. You can defeat many inexperienced players with her.
Ganryu is a new character and just like with any new character, many players don't have "matchup" knowledge. I can't even say how often players see Ganryu online.
Zafina is good noob-destroyer. Not very old, has stances etc. Matchup knowledge is not good among those who do not play Tekken 24/7.
Claudio can be annoying for inexperienced players too. If my memory servers me right, his hopkick was the object of hatred.
Anna is rushdown character and can be annoying. Pressure is good anti-noob tactic. Fast pressure is even better. Also i don't think that many players use her. Not sure tbh.
Kuma. Well. He was annoying and probably haven't changed much. He is slow and big tho. Even if only 3 players will use Kuma, high win ratio will make Kuma good in a "Win-Loss" based tier list.
Negan is good against very inexperienced players. Good noob-destroyer. By the time you will learn a bit more about the game, you will probably would want to change your character.
Chloe. i won't even comment.
Panda. Same as with Kuma probably.
Eliza. How many times you saw her? Probably another "lack of players" problem.
Eddy. Annoying gimmicky character. Could be rare "once in a blue moon" type of character.
Katarina. Braindead button-mashing noob-destroyer.
Bob? Could be braindead. Could be rare.

In short, no, this is not a good excuse for your "bad Bryan" complaint.

[Irigy Kutya]

Originally posted by Jack of Games:

In short, no, this is not a good excuse for your "bad Bryan" complaint.

There are a few folks here, who act all the time like some Tekken authority, and now you can ask them about how bad my Bryan is right now. ;)

On the tier list stuff, this is your opinion, I respect that, and I have written mine already.

[Bon❄超変態駄目青年学生退屈日常自己嫌悪克服]

Alisa is whiff punish oriented char now
pokes, turtle, b4,4, repeat and ure dead

[Pretzel von Schnitzel]

Originally posted by Hidan:

Originally posted by Jack of Games:

In short, no, this is not a good excuse for your "bad Bryan" complaint.

There are a few folks here, who act all the time like some Tekken authority, and now you can ask them about how bad my Bryan is right now. ;)

On the tier list stuff, this is your opinion, I respect that, and I have written mine already.

These people exist in all PvP games. They can f*ck themselves with a Hori Real Arcade Pro V Kai fight stick.
TMM is an Intermediate advocate of common players and he does makes sense sometimes, but no one should just take his words as law and ignore their own low skill (this is not an insult btw), ♥♥♥♥♥♥ fundamentals, whatever. It is a online PvP game after all. You learn or you lose. This is the way PvP games work.
Yes, some things are harder to use or counter than others.
Yes, some characters have low/no execution barrier, while others have average or high execution requirement.
Yes, some characters are more straightforward, while others are too gimmicky etc.
We all signed for this, after we started to play Tekken 7 months after release.

Bryan is no different than Whorang. Many successfully use him below certain level of skill, where we can see him often and where he can be annoying. After these players will reach higher level, number of Bryan players will drop. There is character usage by rank data for season 2. Not very hard to understand why some characters appear more often on certain ranks.

If by casual players you mean common players, who understand that you need to learn a lot to become better player, then i fully agree with your balance statement. I am a very casual player myself. Snake Edge and DC is not the answer for everything.
I do know some games which were balanced around "casual" players. These games are very oversimplified, or should I say - Braindead. Some of those "supposed to be casuals" are just very selfish and lazy players. They are trying to do what they are not supposed to do and then they complain about balance, killing the game for adequate players in the process.
Tekken is more balanced for "casuals" since at least T6. Majority of T7 newcomers are very casual-friendly characters. DLC characters like Negan and Noctis look like cashgrab for casuals.
If you don't have 10+ years of experience in Tekken, then of course some characters will be worse or better for you.

[Tshask]

As we can see on the chart, playing Xiaoyu takes skill.

[Bon❄超変態駄目青年学生退屈日常自己嫌悪克服]

Originally posted by Tshask:

As we can see on the chart, playing Xiaoyu takes skill.

for real tho, watching sodams techs is always enjoyable

[Kinoe]

My thoughts are a bit conflicted about TMM's new video. Drawing data from win-loss statistics is okay, but I think the character types need to also be taken into account, like how gimmicky they are. I didn't watch the full video, but I saw the end result of it, I have to say I'm surprised that Hwo is on B tier. I expected people to spam d3, 4 all day and somehow win :v

[pablonesmrtelny]

This seems irrelevant for ranked though where you have around 50/50 win loss ratio no matter what if you reach "your" rank.

So in ranked this tier list is a popularity contest. MAIN characters have worse winrate because you learn and grind the most with them. And POCKET chars have better winrate since you pick them up after you have grinded skill with others and automatically jump ranks to "your" rank where it stabilizes again.

Or am I missing something?

[Tshask]

Originally posted by pablonesmrtelny:

This seems irrelevant for ranked though where you have around 50/50 win loss ratio no matter what if you reach "your" rank.

So in ranked this tier list is a popularity contest. MAIN characters have worse winrate because you learn and grind the most with them. And POCKET chars have better winrate since you pick them up after you have grinded skill with others and automatically jump ranks to "your" rank where it stabilizes again.

Or am I missing something?

Are these stats from all game modes? I thought these were only from ranked.

[Sirlion]

Tierlists are idiotic but fun to do. Taking win-loss ratios from a game where you can cheat your way up and constantly reset your win-loss ratio is pure stupidity. The discussion is based on nothing, quite literally. Play the game and chill.

[Otchim666]

Originally posted by Schizm:

No... Because these casual players will eventually abandon the title and the only people left are the hardcore audience

"""Those""" casual players wouldn't even bother to complain about stuff. He means dudes like us, who love the game, but don't compete on pro level. And he's right.

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

Yes. There is no real way to build a list without taking the pinnacle of high level play into account. If you focus on online only as a metric of skill and tiers... You are setting yourself up for failure. There are too many variables by individual region, players rank rushing, smurfing, save scumming and more to taint the results. Try again.

I like some of TMMs content, But this comes off like a click bait for plauers who have never competed a day in their lives.

[J.S.D]

Saw a video of you rage quiting a while ago.


I believe it was a yoshi

[SEATEK The_LEFTY]

Me? I don't think so.