Combo mechanism

[NoxArt]

Hi,
Basic question ... when I do a serie of attacks, the hit counter is still red, they are not blocking and are being hit, sometimes people still attack me back during this serie, with DP mainly (can it be called a "combo" if they could act)? I read about frame attributes of attacks, but I thought that comes to play during neutral or when the attack is blocked.

Is it that 'm doing the combo wrong? Or some combos have some weak points? Or they can just do this and I have to guess when and bait it?
Thank you

[Chasemans]

Short answer - the only thing people can do while in hitstun is burst (A+B+C+D) which of course has a fairly long cool-down.

Long answer - the combo length depends on two main things, the starter proration which can range from very short, short, normal and long combo starters and the hitstun of each attack you do during the combo. As for starter proration most A attacks are going to be short starters and most B and C attacks are going to be normal starters there are some 6As that are going to be normal starters as well, but honestly I suggest checking out dustloop wiki for more indepth details on hit decay and what attacks are short and normal starters (I'd link the page but dustloop seems to be down for me right now).

If hitstun fully decays and they are in the air they can forward, back and neutral air tech, knocked down they can neutral tech, roll tech forwards or backwards and quick stand, however if they are standing on the ground and hit decay ends then they are standing there and immediately able to attack, block, back dash, etc.

What I assume is happening to you is that you're hitting someone that is standing on the ground and you're doing an attack that is too slow to combo with the last attack you did, or you're delaying your actions too long. A simple example would be Jin's 2A > 2C, it won't naturally combo, however you can simply add in a 5C to make it work, thus 2A > 5C > 2C.

If you tell me which character(s) you're using I can probably give you some better examples even if I don't play them.

One last thing I'd like to point out counter hit increases the hitstun for that one attack only, crouching hits (when they are stuck in crouching animation while in hitstun) adds an additional 2f of hitstun for the entire time they are in the crouching animation (example 5C > 6C for Jin won't combo unless 5C hits an crouching opponent or 5C CHs) and fatal counters (counter hits with certain attacks) add hitstun to the entire combo duration.

EDIT: Oh Dustloop is having technical problems with no ETA when it will be back up, you can use google cached page for the wiki, just no images of course. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eu55ulTq7SsJ:www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php%3Ftitle%3DBBCPE/Damage+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[NoxArt]

Thank you for such detailed answer!
This should be useful for when one's on the receiving end of the combo too, sounds like an aspect of the game to know what opponents attacks are slow enough and/or when the hit decay is low enough, if I understand it correctly...
I'm playing Noel.

[Chasemans]

Ah for Noel same basic example for Jin applies to Noel applies 2A > 2C doesn't combo (unless 2A CH or they are crouching) 2A > 5C > 2C does.

I only played Noel back in BBCT and BBCS1 (like 6 or 7 years ago) so I'm not sure on her BnBs in this version. If you haven't already I'd recommend going into challenge mode with her for a bit to get an idea on how her combos flow then I suggest checking for more optimal combo routes on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk67u8BQijA this one seems pretty decent even if it's in Japanese, most of the notations are easily readable.

[Umbra]

I would like to add that mashing buttons in a combo in order to get it out quickly is not the best way to go, practice is the only way to be sure when to hit that button to continue the combo. Had to unlearn a few things when learning Lambda-11 for CPE because of her changes and pick up a few new things, like waiting what felt like just a little too long before resuming a combo.

EDIT
And don't forget you can't BURST on the recieving end of an Overdrive combo!

[NoxArt]

Thank you both! Almost can do the 12th challenge, will check out the video too.

There was a youtube comment that noted that in some situations commands don't even register (it referred to a time during an optic barrel dash follow-up, but it seems to be the case more often), that sounds like an example for the advice against mashing.

[Mr.Ownage [FTW]]

I am really against the idea of starting combos with A attacks, no matter if they are fast or not. You should really go for B starters at least, not only due to their much better damage scaling but also for their normal starter rating. For Tager, not using A attacks as starters are the rule rather than the exception : His A attacks have VS starter ratings (very short) which means the max you'll get is 5A/2A > 5B > 3C > gadget and that's it.

I sadly don't really do challenge mode, I make up my own combos instead. The only times I DO visit challenge mode is when I am completely lost with a character and need help finding exclusive combo methods/techs (Litchi 4B > 6B hold, Itsuu routes etc...).

By the way as a fun fact, explore Noel's Overdrive in great detail. IMO, it's one of the best Overdrives (along with Litchi's Great Wheel, Tao's Almost Becoming Two and Koko's Graviton Rage) period. Noel will skip her reload animations, you can combo after Spring Raid, Assault Through wallbounces, you can combo after 5B in Revolver state midscreen and 5B > 5C > 5D will work against standing opponents in OD, just to name a few buffs.

If you do a ground combo and the Heat counter disappears/they could DP, that is not a real combo, the hitstun actually ends before the next attack connects. For Noel, it happens when doing 5C/2C > 3C without crouching or Fatal Counter. I had this problem too with Ragna when doing 5C > 6C (must be crouching or FC) but then I was able to hitconfirm crouchers so I had no prob with this route.

[Chasemans]

Originally posted by Mr.Ownage FTW:

I am really against the idea of starting combos with A attacks, no matter if they are fast or not. You should really go for B starters at least, not only due to their much better damage scaling but also for their normal starter rating. For Tager, not using A attacks as starters are the rule rather than the exception : His A attacks have VS starter ratings (very short) which means the max you'll get is 5A/2A > 5B > 3C > gadget and that's it.

For punishing something big you definitely don't want to use an A so in that you're right, however A attacks have their place and they are good in this game. They are good for counter poking at close range and catching certain overheads on reaction, they are also good for stagger pressure and tick throws.

While they generally don't lead to much damage (except in certain cases like Hazama with 100 meter to finish a round) they still lead to corner carry for some characters, knock down oki and in the combo you listed Gadget Finger which is a really strong mix-up situation for Tager.

[Mr.Ownage [FTW]]

Originally posted by Chasemans:

Originally posted by Mr.Ownage FTW:

I am really against the idea of starting combos with A attacks, no matter if they are fast or not. You should really go for B starters at least, not only due to their much better damage scaling but also for their normal starter rating. For Tager, not using A attacks as starters are the rule rather than the exception : His A attacks have VS starter ratings (very short) which means the max you'll get is 5A/2A > 5B > 3C > gadget and that's it.

For punishing something big you definitely don't want to use an A so in that you're right, however A attacks have their place and they are good in this game. They are good for counter poking at close range and catching certain overheads on reaction, they are also good for stagger pressure and tick throws.

While they generally don't lead to much damage (except in certain cases like Hazama with 100 meter to finish a round) they still lead to corner carry for some characters, knock down oki and in the combo you listed Gadget Finger which is a really strong mix-up situation for Tager.

Yeah, gadget is a good option but not all characters have such good oki options (Looking at you Hakumen), and if I am Ragna I only really use A attacks when I am caught in a blockstring - if I start an A combo I end with Hell's Fang immediatly to go for a higher damage reset instead. I also usually use B and C attacks instead due to 5B's high speed and range, and also normal starter rating.

The only other situations of me ever pressing the A button as Ragna are
-Belial combo routes (6A > j.A > j.C belial)
-6A (self explanatory - it launches and also has normal starter rating)
-Hell's Fang, one of the best if not THE best special move he has.
-Mid-combo if I need adjustments

[Chasemans]

Originally posted by Mr.Ownage FTW:

Originally posted by Chasemans:

For punishing something big you definitely don't want to use an A so in that you're right, however A attacks have their place and they are good in this game. They are good for counter poking at close range and catching certain overheads on reaction, they are also good for stagger pressure and tick throws.

While they generally don't lead to much damage (except in certain cases like Hazama with 100 meter to finish a round) they still lead to corner carry for some characters, knock down oki and in the combo you listed Gadget Finger which is a really strong mix-up situation for Tager.

Yeah, gadget is a good option but not all characters have such good oki options (Looking at you Hakumen), and if I am Ragna I only really use A attacks when I am caught in a blockstring - if I start an A combo I end with Hell's Fang immediatly to go for a higher damage reset instead. I also usually use B and C attacks instead due to 5B's high speed and range, and also normal starter rating.

The only other situations of me ever pressing the A button as Ragna are
-Belial combo routes (6A > j.A > j.C belial)
-6A (self explanatory - it launches and also has normal starter rating)
-Hell's Fang, one of the best if not THE best special move he has.
-Mid-combo if I need adjustments

Ragna does have good B and C normals, but honestly doing some 2A stagger pressure, frame traps and 2A/2C > dash > 5A wiff > throw on ocassion will help with your mix-up. I see some JP players occassionally use 2A for oki and starting pressure when closer then 5B range as well. Not sure about BBCPE, but Ragna can still pull off 2.5k from 2A in/near the corner in BBCF which isn't bad at all.

For Hakumen TK Tsubaki is pretty decent mix-up in the corner for oki. Plus Hakumen's 2A is pretty decent active frames with short recovery which makes it a good meaty oki choice. Using 2A meaty with Hakumen will recover allowing him to block before both of Jin's DPs easily and Kagura's [2]8C reversal go active, it also works against Izayoi and Tsubaki's, but it's harder to time properly. I'm sure there's other reversals it'll recover faster than, but I don't use Hakumen so I wouldn't be able to name them all.

I'm not saying should you should only be mashing out A normals, however you're also denying yourself of a good spacing dependent poking, anti-air (for certain characters), pressure and oki (for certain characters as well) tool by never really using it.

EDIT: Ragna can get 2.8k from 2Ax2 crouching oppenent confirm in CF in the corner as well, I'm sure he should be able to get similar damage in CP, but not entirely sure since I don't play Ragna either.

https://youtu.be/S1dG0cyvbnI?t=717

EDIT 2: Yep, very first combo on this video below 3.3k from 2A crouching opponent confirm mid-screen as well.

https://youtu.be/JX1WUnNyhNc

[BeatBy38 | RoxaShadoW]

Originally posted by Mr.Ownage FTW:

-Hell's Fang, one of the best if not THE best special move he has.

I disagree, 623D is his best move. Especially dash TK 623D.

[Mr.Ownage [FTW]]

Originally posted by RoxaShadoW:

Originally posted by Mr.Ownage FTW:

-Hell's Fang, one of the best if not THE best special move he has.

I disagree, 623D is his best move. Especially dash TK 623D.

Maybe in combos it is. Remember that 623D is not invulnerable at all, 623C is but it's incredibly punishable on block. Hell's Fang simply forces you on the defensive if blocked.

[BeatBy38 | RoxaShadoW]

I meant in neutral.

[Mr.Ownage [FTW]]

I still don't understand why is dash TK 623D good then. Characters with long range normals (Haku 4C, Ragna 5B, Noel 5C, Jin 5D etc...) will beat you out before you get to close range and remember, it has no invuln. Also, if you whiff you'll get punished, if they block you'll get punished, if you hit you get no real reward close to the corner (straight punch) nor midscreen (no more SP wallbounce), only oki if you end with Ax Kick which is quite good though.