Playerthoughts on Impossi-blocking

[Minus]

Note: By Impossible blocking I mean as part of gameplay, not just trolling.

Say you get into a lead, and theres a 3 turn warning or you know the rounds end is soon.

What are peoples thoughts on intentionally making a round impossible to complete, thereby maintaining your lead?

I am aware this can be annoying, but I feel that this is mostly in regard to random joins / non-lead players trying to throw a match/dance-trolling.

[Dolphin Buff Man]

I honestly see the tactical side of it, but I think it's poor sports man ship. It is physically allowed in the game, but perhaps a gentlemens agreement at the start would make it clear that a group won't resort to it or something.

[jotun?]

Similarly there are many ways to make a level too easy, preventing comebacks by ensuring that you'll always get points if anyone does.

It just comes down to sportsmanship, really. The game as-is wouldn't work well at a competitive/professional level because of this, but in a casual environment where fun or showing off is a bigger goal than winning, it's usually fine.

From what I've seen, most players who are in the lead maintain the mindset of keeping the level challenging-but-possible. I have over 100 hours and I don't think I've ever seen someone who had a lead deliberately make the level impossible or too easy. When people do it, they're usually losing/frustrated/trolling, not going for the win.

With no ranking system, there's not much incentive to do it. Winning by round limit is much less satisfying than reaching the score threshold, impossible rounds are straight-up boring, and it's a good way to make everyone else leave the game so you have to wait longer for your next "win".

[hot pants]

I feel like there should be an option to turn it on. I usually either turn off rounds or if im winning, make it impossible by letting time win (I never do that. My friends do)

[Jingseng]

That's why there are bombs.

People need to draw a distinction - what is impossible for you (this is slightly off topic) is not necessarily so for someone else. The entire goal of the game is to toe that line. Maybe even cross it. This game is all about one ups manship, particularly in setting a difficulty curve.

And besides which, people might need to take it a little less seriously and laugh more. My best times in this game have always been when my friend and I make the course just shy of literal impossibility (literal impossibility being actually somewhat difficult to achieve itself usually) and laughing at our tryhard deaths... or placing coins in impossible (or seemingly so) locations for a dare.

[Dolphin Buff Man]

I think the idea behind the impossible levels isn't in the difficulty, but in the placement of blocks that literally prevent you from proceeding. For instance, completely blocking off the exit, or the start. Bombs don't always come out, so you can actually go a few rounds where there is simply no way to proceed.

[ShinyBuhBuhSaur]

I've had a few people block the goal completely but never one who did it as a mean to keep their lead. There isn't really any incentive to win the round. The incentive in each round is how hard and absurd you can make a level and still be able to beat it. I've basically given up on trying to be the winner(which I usually was when i first started playing). Now I just mess around and try to make something that looks impossible to beat, but is still doable. I then send out words of great praise when someone is able to beat it. It's impressive. I think that's more fun in the long run anyway. So people can block all they want as far as I care. It's never really distracted from the enjoyment, personally speaking. Even if I can't actually get to the goal, if I've made it past everything else and am standing next to or on top of the goal, it's still basically a victory to me, just without points.

[PrettzL]

I do my best to make it "appear possible" once I have a definitive lead. :3

Having a full grasp on what movement and jumps and traps that are actually impossible but look doable really helps with this tactical method.

[RichardAtlas]

Hey all, great to see this kind of discussion happening. Originally, before there was online multiplayer, there was no round limit. The biggest issue we found with that was that people who really liked difficult maps would just continue to make the level harder and harder until no one was getting any points, and games would drag on to 40 minutes or more. This led to people getting bored, so the solution (especially useful for online) was to add a round limit (or time limit, by the way, you can select that in the options). This made it so that once you're bored of the level, it's close to ending anyway.

I think that in a competitive setting, a round limit doesn't make sense for exactly the reason you're describing. In that kind of setting, the ONLY way to win is to make it possible (at least for you), otherwise the round simply never ends. We find that this is best when people playing at a similar skill level and playing competitively, though usually we see this locally more than online.

Think of the round limit as a necessary evil given that you're often playing with random people, and of course we give you the option to turn it off. We had considered making it impossible to block off the level, but that would involve a pathfinding algorithm that not only makes sure there's a path from start to finish, but also would need to determine if hazards make traversal impossible, etc. Basically a huge can of worms that we decided to leave closed.

Just some thoughts from one of the devs!

[PrettzL]

Originally posted by RichardAtlas:

...the solution (especially useful for online) was to add a round limit (or time limit, by the way, you can select that in the options).

This! I've always found it increasingly odd the more I play public games how high hosts set their round limit once they become aware of the setting. It's often above 40 rounds which, player skill and desire to complete a level- dependent, a single round can take upwards of 5 minutes. Meaning that the game can wind up not being over after 2 and a half HOURS have passed.

I tend to bail on public games that have higher than a 10-15 round limit and even on private matches made with friends if one level we're building takes more than 20 minutes and we're not actively building a challenge to be overcome or working on the timings of advanaced movement I'm probably not having any fun whatsoever.

A good public matchup of anywhere from 2-4 players should be resolveable (have a winner declared) in under 10 minutes so that more matches can continue to be played. The longer an individual map continues to be played with the same points having been earned the less overall entertainment that matchup will provide.

Originally posted by RichardAtlas:

in a competitive setting, a round limit doesn't make sense for exactly the reason you're describing.

This is the reason why I have such an appreciate for a point limit to win being smaller than 10-15 as well. At 5 points to win a game can take anywhere from 3-6 minutes to have a winner declared or even as short as 5 rounds if the skill gap is large enough between the players.

Where once the point limit is at 10 or above often times, unless there's a gentlemans agreement between the participants of the match to not block exits (also depending upon player understanding/experience in the game to have the capacity to understand that certian block placements make progress from start to finish fully impossible- Yes a lot of people you play public games with will not know that you cannot duck jump and get through single tall gaps, inexperienced players want to see what is possible for a more experienced player by building ANYTHING at all- usually involving ferriswheel platforms or verticle saw platforms- among other blocks that are very often misused and uncalculatedly placed, etc), matches can wind up taking hours at that point (Unless bombs are not disabled).

Though to be honest at the point where levels become fully impossible to beat for the point leader (in my public play experience) when it's me with a commanding lead and the other participants are in my dust I tend to be kicked simply because the match has no chance to end due to the other players making the level impossible for me to beat via aggressively poor placement of blocks. And it's typically not just myself who cannot even complete the level, it's all of the other participants too because if I can beat a level doesnt mean that they even stand a chance.

Being kicked from a match because the other players cannot win is the only unsportsman-like thing I've experienced in this game.

[VEF215]

Making the level impossible is a legitimate tactic. That is why if you are behind you need to place your items in such a way to allow alternate routes. If somebody has a good lead, and the level is getting really hard, all they have to do is keep trying to kill everyone so they win by attrition. It's a game of chess.There's no bad sportsmanship about it unless somebody does it every single round even if they are not winning. And if someone is doing that you can just kick them anyway. That's where the unique fun of this game lies, trying to make routes that only you can get through. A non-issue imo

[jotun?]

Originally posted by VEF215:

That's where the unique fun of this game lies, trying to make routes that only you can get through.

I agree with that, but I think the topic here is about making the level completely impossible, like totally blocking off the start or finish. I'd say doing that goes against the spirit of the game, since you're ruining the fun wasting everyone's time just to get a less-meaningful victory.

[VEF215]

Originally posted by zarakon:

Originally posted by VEF215:

That's where the unique fun of this game lies, trying to make routes that only you can get through.

I agree with that, but I think the topic here is about making the level completely impossible, like totally blocking off the start or finish. I'd say doing that goes against the spirit of the game, since you're ruining the fun wasting everyone's time just to get a less-meaningful victory.

That just adds to the hilarity, I don't take this game super seriously. Plus it's easy to counter

[PrettzL]

It's pretty funny when players just 'hold B' to give up when a round starts too.

Absolutely hilarious.

[Minus]

Originally posted by VEF215:

Originally posted by zarakon:

I agree with that, but I think the topic here is about making the level completely impossible, like totally blocking off the start or finish. I'd say doing that goes against the spirit of the game, since you're ruining the fun wasting everyone's time just to get a less-meaningful victory.

That just adds to the hilarity, I don't take this game super seriously. Plus it's easy to counter

People do underestimate the bomb items.