(To SF4 Diehards) Explain How Harder Controls = Better Game

[Redblaze27]

Please explain how 1-Frame Link Combos and difficult Special Move Inputs raise the run factor for you in fighting games?

I can understandand over simplicity ruining a fighting game in cases where it harms possible strategies in the game or results in the gameplay mechanics themselves being dumbed down as opposed to just the execution of those mechanics.

Are you opposed to the idea of most potiential players being on the same understanding of the controls and just letting the game be determined by individual player tactics? If so, why?

This is not intended as any sort of flamewar topic or to bash on you guys, I just have a genuine interest in figuring out where you are coming from in in both enjoyment and video game design philosophy.

[kim possible]

I wouldn't say the harder the better but definitely the harder the hyper. Also, the harder the combos the more challenge there is in the game.

[Redblaze27]

Originally posted by TK | Saki:

Also, the harder the combos the more challenge there is in the game.

But isnt that just artificial difficulty.

[Providence 777]

Originally posted by Redblaze27:

But isnt that just artificial difficulty.

Yes it is, but they don't know that yet.

To those people, I say:

If they want a real challenge, I suggest they play no input deivce at all.
Use your mind to move the character. That would make the game really difficult, just imagine the hype that would be generated as people watch you look at the screen making nothing happen. XD

[SaltLevelsMax]

I think both sides of this argument are right honestly, just that the people who want the game to be extra difficult are much more annoying about it. The difficult combos can be a really fun way to challenge yourself, learning to do those hard combos consistently is kind of a way of earning extra damage that more casual players can't do. After a certain point though, those combos get to be easy to do, I haven't been challenged by one frame link combos in a long time, and more often then not you are only going to drop them because of lag, so having a larger window to land combos just lets those players worry about strategy, and it won't give new players the advantage over veterans in fights because the new players still obviously won't know tactics to win just because they can do combos.

[Redblaze27]

Yes, netcode lag is another big factor into for what the game should be designed for.
It should be make to be perfectly playable at a 3 bar connection.

[Cipher Esteria]

SFIV 1f Combos are the most annoying sh** on this planet.
Go into training mode,practice 30 hours one and the same link.
Profit?Play online there's one frame delay,miss all of the 1f links. Great design.

Combos can be difficult without 1f links,just SFIV diehards cannot accept this.

[mediamatix]

By the same logic the most fancy car is the best. You get to brag.

And it allows a bad player that gets "out-streetfightered" by solid fundamentals to hit a 50% damage out of a random "jab, jab, jab" hit confirm. It's an extension to the "knowing combos makes the difference"-rule of StreetFighter.

But then there is online frame delay. Possibly making you a offline champ and a online chimp. lol.
Nah, srsly, that ♥♥♥♥ had to go. Honest & consistent gameplay all the way!


PS - There ARE actually still 1framer in the game, thou. Like this Ryu combo:
F.HP, s.MP, forward (a quick forward press, not a dash), s.LK, LK-Tatsu.

Moving actually kills the 3-frame-buffer as the game thinks you start off a new combo. This might get fixed thou, but as of last beta, it was in.

[Krackatoa]

Originally posted by MorningStar:

PS - There ARE actually still 1framer in the game, thou. Like this Ryu combo:
F.HP, s.MP, forward (a quick forward press, not a dash), s.LK, LK-Tatsu.

Moving actually kills the 3-frame-buffer as the game thinks you start off a new combo. This might get fixed thou, but as of last beta, it was in.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but...

It's not that moving kills the 3-frame buffer, it's that you need to delay your input until after you're out of s.MP recovery so that you get the extra distance needed to reach with s.LK

f.HP > s.MP (Hold Forward Here) > Walk 1 to 2 frames > s.LK xx LK.Tatsu

f.HP > s.MP is a 4 frame link thanks to the input buffer.

The s.MP > s.LK is a 1 or 2 frame link as it requires at least 1 frame of walking after s.MP connects. You cannot buffer walking in this game, so you can't simply hold forward and press s.LK during s.MP recovery (You'll only get an as-early-as-possible s.LK). You need to be precise.

Characters like Birdie can also do s.LK > Walk Forward > s.LK > s.MP xx Bull Horn.

Walking forward is very important for some strings, and it lets players convert where they wouldn't otherwise. I know of a few situations where a just-frame walk allows you to convert off certain Counterhit strings without giving your opponent a chance to counterpoke with cr.LP or a similar 3 frame normal.

With Karin: cr.MP > Walk Forward for 2 frames > s.MP > cr.MK xx Just Frame Tenko > Whatever

If cr.MP is blocked, but if they expect a walk-in throw, they may try to counterpoke with a light or press throw themselves to tech. In almost all cases, the s.MP will counterhit. CH s.MP allows you to combo into cr.MK xx jf Tenko (QCF.K~P) > LK.MujinKyaku (QCB.LK). You cannot normally reach your opponent if you do not walk forward first after the cr.MP.

Karin's cr.MP is +3 on block, or more if you land it meaty. The meatier you do it (Which means you have to practice good meaty timing, another 1 to 2 frame window), the stronger the trap (You get more time to walk forward after cr.MP).

[mediamatix]

Random trivia:
---------------------

SF2 on SNES featured major change in the game mechanics: It was "dumbed down".
To the point that you once required precise execution for, now you could get by pressing a single button instead. Those moves were "medium punch" and "medium kick"!
You didn't expect that, did ya? :D

Those who joined in SF4 are usually unaware of this. Hell, even lots of 09ers are. And I dunno how it was in the US, but in Europe (Spain)? The arcade cabinets did NOT feature 6 button layout. That common layout you see everywhere was introduced specifically for street fighter. I dunno if it's because of different manufactors or whatsoever, but in Europe all I saw were the "regular" 2, 3, or 4-buttons layouts. Tops!

So how did you pull off all those normals? Depending on low long you pressed that button (how many frames) a different normal would come out. You actually still have this very mechanic incorporated in Smash Bros for WiiU! The is only one attack button there (A) so depending on how long you press it, Ryu executes a different move! Awesome, right? :D


The 6 button layout you use today is a "dumbed down" layout to make combos easier. I don't see much complaining about that. Myself I was left wondering how some people were able to "cancel out" Tatsus in midair (= LK tatsu). When I did it Ken kept spinning forever! (= HK tatsu)

[mediamatix]

Originally posted by Krackatoa:

Not sure if this is what you meant, but...

It's not that moving kills the 3-frame buffer, it's that you need to delay your input until after you're out of s.MP recovery so that you get the extra distance needed to reach with s.LK

f.HP > s.MP (Hold Forward Here) > Walk 1 to 2 frames > s.LK xx LK.Tatsu

f.HP > s.MP is a 4 frame link thanks to the input buffer.

The s.MP > s.LK is a 1 or 2 frame link as it requires at least 1 frame of walking after s.MP connects. You cannot buffer walking in this game, so you can't simply hold forward and press s.LK during s.MP recovery (You'll only get an as-early-as-possible s.LK). You need to be precise.

Oh so you mean it's more about the distance? :O

Well, regardless of it you need to hit that s.LK on that very specific 1 frame, so virtually a 1 frame combo. It's not the most practicable combo but if one fancies the executional difficulties... :3

BTW: To my understanding the buffer works by adding two more frames to your buttons, turning 1 frame into virtually 3 frames, not 4.
I base this assumtion in combofiends summing it up as "basically, everything is at least 3 frames now". o.o

[Krackatoa]

Originally posted by MorningStar:

BTW: To my understanding the buffer works by adding two more frames to your buttons, turning 1 frame into virtually 3 frames, not 4.
I base this assumtion in combofiends summing it up as "basically, everything is at least 3 frames now". o.o

It feels larger than 3 frames wide. I imagine it's 3 to 4 frames before the actual window, making it a 4 to 5 frame minimum for any link.

Also, Combofiend said 2 frames "in both directions", which is untrue as you cannot buffer forward. I think he meant it was a 4 frame buffer.

[YellerDog]

Execution's a lot of fun to get right. Most of the 'high level play' talk doesn't apply to playing the game with your friends on a couch, so don't worry about it. You'll never have to worry about 1-frame links or unblockable setups or charge buffers, you can just derp around and have fun with the game! It works just fine on that level.

If you want to practice and go nuts and earn a Master's Degree in Street Fighter you can certainly put the time in and figure out how to do that too! Completely optional.

"Fireballs aren't fair! I don't know how to do the move!" is something that I've been hearing since 1991. The entire genre is predicated on word-of-mouth knowledge and players teaching players, and now there's youTube and Gamefaqs and all this great stuff if one want's to go super overboard in learning every little trick.

[YellerDog]

TL;DR -- don't play ranked if you don't want to get whupped on.

[mediamatix]

Originally posted by DasYellerDog:

"Fireballs aren't fair! I don't know how to do the move!" is something that I've been hearing since 1991. The entire genre is predicated on word-of-mouth knowledge and players teaching players, and now there's youTube and Gamefaqs and all this great stuff if one want's to go super overboard in learning every little trick.

The arcades didn't have the moveset printed on at first, at least in Europe. Special moves where a damn secret to uncover. I remember we had all moves figured out except Teleport with Dhalsim and command grabs with Zangief.
Scrubs randomly hitting all buttons sometimes performed 'em and half the kids in the arcade went "WHAT DID YOU JUST PRESS?! O_o

Who of the 90ers doesn't remember that one friend who would not tell you how to perform a special? I believe we all had one of these! >:D

[Kitsundere]

SF4 is a different game, same as SF3 is a different game and is considered "better than SF4" by so many people for many of reasons. Everyone is going to have their favorite game in the series, usually dependant on which game they started with. I know A LOT of people who still claim Super Turbo is THE BEST, I know people who say 3rd Strike is THE BEST, I know people who think the Alpha series is THE BEST, and the same goes for SF4, and now even there are people who already feel SFV is going to be the greatest. They all are Street Fighter at the core, but each game has it's own defining feel, each game has it's own elements that are specific to that game only.

SFV is no doubt going to be huge in the competitive community and people are already claiming that SF4 doesn't matter anymore. Just because these claims are out there does not mean that one is better than the other. They are different beasts.

SF4, despite being infamous for being overly defensive, is actually a quicker paced and more technically appealing game due to how open-ended the system is with inputs and such. You can go crazy if you want to without too much worry since there are a myriad of ways to make your approach safe and almost too much tech that you can choose to incorperate into your game which takes a lot of the guess-work out of the fight.

SFV is more down to the basics and more about the mind game than it is about your level of execution. If you whiff an uppercut, there is no FADC backdash to get out of it, backdashing to escape moves isn't even a thing anymore, there is no such thing as throw tech (mashing throw only gives you throw, it doesn't default to light kick while crouching like in SF4), option selects exist to an extent but aren't going to be a main focus like in SF4 where it became a game revolving around such tech for many high level players.

People are going to complain about SFV being "too easy" because it does indeed bring it down a notch as far as combos and tech go...but we have to also realize, this game is not done yet. Not everyone has gotten their hands on it, and while many may be disappointed with the direction the game is taking, it is ultimately an UNFINISHED product that is subject to change drastically before the official release, and possibly even after release with patches. Vanilla SF4 used to be INSANE where as USF4 is now incredibly balanced for competitive play. We've lost tech, gained new tech, the game changes drastically with time...

The main thing to remember here is...SFV is not SF4 with upgrades. It is a NEW game. Some people will welcome it with open arms, some will shun it forever, and others may take a while to get used to it but will probably accept it just as much as the last. SF4 will live on whether or not it's the main focus of the majority of competitive players, just as SF3 still lives on and still burns strong in the hearts of many of its fans.