ENDINGS (SPOILERS)

[SolarOtter]

Ok, So I just finished the game with the Bachelor. I'm still a bit confused but http://pathologistics.blogspot.fr/2012/02/pathologic-ending-according-to-bachelor.html and mostly http://thefripandthedead.com/2011/05/21/in-depth-pathologic-pt-12/ helped me to grasp wth happened.

It seems like there are 4 endings and one (or 2) secret endings (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/12/butchering-pathologic-part-3-the-soul/ Lxr talks about it , and sketcz dude http://hg101.proboards.com/thread/9974/pathologic).

Can someone here explain tom me all the endings ? Or the ones he understood well.
Did anybody know what these (those?) secret endings are ? I'd like to somewhat understand the story of Pathologic.

[root1902]

Basically the main endings are:

Bachelor saves the polyhedron but destroys the town
Haruspex saves the town but destroys the polyhedron
Clara saves both the town and the polyhedron
Bad Ending (for not saving anyone) both the polyhedron and the town are destroyed by the army

The secret endings aren't really endings, there just extra things which happen on the final day, they are:

Btw, this is a MASSIVE spoiler and I wouldn't spoil it unless you never plan on playing the game again or as either of the other 2 characters

If you save another character's adherants: you discover the whole game is just a game children are playing in their sandpit and everyone in the town is just a child's doll and the "player" is a seperate entity to the "playable character" and the town is just a game built for the player.

If you save both the other character's adherants: you get an extra moment at the end where you see Bachelor, Clara and Haruspex as stuffed dolls on the stage of the theatre with the player now outside the playable character, the player leaves the theatre door and then moves away into blackness as if leaving the sandbox.

Trying to understand everything is difficult, because you have to play as all 3 characters before you can even try and do that. Many of the questions you might have would be answered in the other 2 scenarios. Plus, Pathologic is a very complex narrative with several intertwining narratives and meta-narratives anyway. I always tend to think of it as something like Gravity's Rainbow or Infinite Jest where a lot of the fun is piecing together all the pieces (and I've taken loads of screenshots of interesting moments dialogue from this game! :P).

Also, given the game's obscurity still in English speaking countries, there's sadly never been much discussion or analysis of the story in English as there has other more popular game's with ambitious narratives such as Metal Gear Solid 2.

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Saying that however, here's a few important things you learn from Haruspex and Clara's scenario which might help:


*The young girl who makes the "sandbox" game is mourning the death of her real life grandfather and it appears she is making the game to help her mourn the death of her grandfather.

*Simon Kain and Clara are both described as "capital H humans" at the end of Clara's scenario (i.e. real-life people in the real world, not the game world). Clara is born from the earth the exact moment the game begins and Simon Kain dies the exact moment the game begins - remember how on the very first day of Bachelor's scenario Georigyi Kain says something like it's "significant that you arrived at this moment" when the Bachelor thinks he's accusing him of killing Simon Kain, Georgiy says "no, I'm not, it just feels important".

Also note that the Polyhedron is constantly described as something like a "childish place of wonder where anyone which can affect human emotion" (I'm paraphrasing) and that Simon Kain (i.e. a real life human (like the player))'s spirit is literally placed into the Polyhedron and on the diagram it looks like he is literally "injected" into the town - which seems like Simon Kain is meant to be the player to me.

*You also find out the town is only a month old in Clara's scenario despite the fact many of the characters are old, the town has many ancient traditions and talk of an outbreak which happened 5 years previous.

It's interesting having different interpretations. My own personal one relates to a quote from Ice-Pick Lodge in an interview with rockpapershotgun where they said:

"What we did began as an attempt at a cultural experiment . Back then, in 2002, we wrote a manifesto, in which we proposed that the computer game is a new, independent form of art with huge and yet unexplored potential.

For us it means primarily that games possesses a unique arsenal of specific "tools" - ones that unfortuantely, we are yet to discover and master - that will allow this artistic form to become the langague of te age we live in. We believe the computer game could become the "artform of the 21st century" - just like cinema became the primary artform of the 20th century.

And so our studio was born as an artistic labatory. We decided to set a few experiments - test some ideas, condirm some assumptions and find the artistic tools, unique for the computer game form. Not ones borrowed from the filmmaking industr, painting or literature - but ones based on the uniqueness of playing a game, specific to the form from the very beginning. Ones based on player's freedom of choice, irreversibility, non-linerarity and pseudo non-lineratiy of the process in real time... and of course many others..."


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To me that quote is crucial to a lot of what Pathologic is about. And I've always interpreted the game to be a "call to arms" for gaming to find its own unique voice as an artform rather than copying other artforms (particuarly cinema).

I think that's why the town is based around centuries old myths and a supposedly immortal leader despite only being a month old - it's representing how gaming should be trying to find its own new ideas and tools to create its own unique pieces and ways of telling stories rather than being built on ideas from other more established artforms.

Clara, who is born from the earth of the town the moment the game begins is even described as "the lamest type of mimetic apery" by Yulia.

Also, the theatre, which I think is supposed to represent "play" is located as the literal heart of the bull/town, showing that gameplay should be at the heart of gaming narratives rather than the actual story.

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Anyway, there's a lot of things to interpret, but the point is I think you're not supposed to really get a handle on it all until you've played all 3 scenarios.

[SolarOtter]

Thanks a lot for your reply man. Didnt read all you spoilers as I may now start a new game with Klara, but will first try to save all the adherents . Appreciated that you mentionned MGS2 , Infinite Jest and Gravity rainbow. I'll have to read these two books.

[worm lore expert]

Just wanted to add some thoughts regarding the "secret ending": The secret ending scene where you are left standing on the stage with the three protagonists in front of you can actually be unlocked in two ways: if you have saved ONE extra group of adherents/bound (i.e., you are playing as the Bachelor and save all of the Humbles or the Termites) then you become eligible to meet the Powers That Be, or The Children. After this, you will see the extra scene only if you decline to make a choice and let the plague take the town.

However, this very same scene is also unlocked if you save every adherent, speak to the Creators/developers in the theatre, and then choose your character's canon choice. The scene itself seems to me less important than the voice-over, which appears to be a direct message from the developers praising you, the player, for your achievement of making a truly free choice in a predetermined simulation. The significance of this message only appearing in the two specific combinations of ending events and choices I have mentioned is certainly up for discussion.

On another pertinent topic in root1902's post (still massive endgame spoilers): I definitely do not think Simon is meant to be the player. I think the capital-H Human statement is more to signify that Clara is destined to be a supra-human on par with Simon, which is a sentiment echoed by several of her Bound near the end of her story.

The Player, as a character within the game's narrative, exists on an (almost) totally separate level along with the Creators. One of the Creator conversations (I forget whose, probably Bachelor's) pretty much directly tells you that the Children don't actually exist either. The Player and Creators don't really intermingle with the "lower" levels of reality, with only a couple of exceptions. Dankovsky doesn't get any new lines from witnessing the Children or the Creators, but Burakh gets to talk to Aglaya about the Children and you even get to talk to her as the Player. Clara has a few lines that can be taken to refer to the Player, as well as some lines where you are speaking as the Player (but that go over everyone else's head). None of these suggest a confluence with Simon, at least as far as I can tell.

And now, an info dump of everything that I know about Simon, because why not: Simon is NOT originally in the Polyhedron. Nina actually inhabits it for most of the game. Simon is moved into it in the Bachlor's ending, otherwise he diffuses into the town (although maybe not in Haruspex's ending, I don't remember). As all three characters, you can witness Georgiy housing Simon's Memory and Victor housing Nina's Memory; they are doing this to move Nina out of the Polyhedron and prepare it as a vessel for Simon. In Clara's scenario they mention that doing this would mean the loss of Nina's Memory/spirit, because the Polyhedron can only house one soul, and so they would prefer not to place Simon in it. They also mention it was never intended to house Simon specifically; presumably making the Polyhedron into an udurgh is entirely Maria's idea.

The Kains are quite adamant in each scenario that Simon is not really dead. They seem to be able to sense him, which means A.) they are feigning dismay at his death in the Bachelor scenario (they noticably are NOT mourning in Clara's scenario, and you can call them out on it) and B.) this explains perfectly where they get the knowledge that Rubin has Simon's body, because whenever you tell them, they already knew. He was probably an unwitting part of their plan all along.

It takes some time before Georgiy can make himself a vessel for Simon's Memory. My personal theory (and I should mention ahead of time that I haven't tried to sync up the days) is that Simon really is alive, but in a state of suspended animation, the entire time that Rubin is making vaccines out of his corpse. Rubin insists that absolutely every fiber of Simon's being, every drop of his blood, went into creating the vaccines that were distributed through the town. Shortly after this, the Kains mention feeling his essence dissolved through the town, and in at least one scenario (Clara's I think), they mention piecing his essence back together. Presumably they were literally collecting Simon's spirit in order for Georgiy to absorb it and assume Simon's Memory.

It's also worth mentioning that each protagonist can speak to Simon and Nina through Georgiy and Victor, and each of them is convinced that they are speaking to the real Simon and unnerved at the sense of someone speaking through Victor (although they do not each know they are talking to Nina). I guess the thesis of what I'm saying is Simon is certainly a distinct entity from the Player with consistent attributes across scenarios.

My deepest apologies for this absurd number of words.

[root1902]

Thanks for that reply spocky skelenton!

I'm actually replaying as Bachelor atm as I originally played that on the original version Pathologic and have only played as Haruspex and Clara on the re-translation so I've probably forgotten a lot of that stuff in the Bachelor scenario so I was probably wrong with regards to Simon.

But I definitely feel there is something going on there, the descriptions of the Polyhedron are constantly so similar to that of gaming or games or play and the constant description of viewing things through a door that no one can see I always thought was supposed to represent the computer screen? That I definitely think there's got to be some sort of metaphor with regards to either gaming, the gaming industry or player interaction in play with the Polyhedron."

[worm lore expert]

I might be wrong on the "viewing things through a door no one can see" part, but I think it was a literal description of what it is like to be a child in the Polyhedron. I might be thinking of the wrong context. The walls that look blank to each playable character are literally reflecting and sustaining children's dreams and imaginations. Khan will say to Clara that instead of walls he sees a naval battle raging around him. But yeah, the parallels to video games are obvious, especially since children can relive dreams indefinitely and even bring others to play with them in their own dreams, I am just not sure if they are important. Rather, I think what Pathologic really wants to say about gaming and player interaction is said pretty much directly by the Creators.

Just a collection of thoughts on the Polyhedron in general:
It is the physical representation of the Utopians and all they stand for. It is a haven for children, but there might be a predatory or parasitic aspect to this relationship (e.g. you'll occasionally hear that the Town "feeds" the Tower with its children). In non-Bachelor scenarios, you'll hear from Capella (and maybe others) that children lose something by being in the Polyhedron and living in illusory dreams, and it is the wise children who have left it behind and roam the town to pursue real dreams. It is condemned for its "capture" of dreams and its unnatural prolonging of them. Maybe a video game parallel for you there.

That said, the Bachelor's scenario makes it clear that the ultimate destiny of the Tower intended by the Utopians is not to house the town's children. It will eventually be made suitable for visionary, very adult, minds to unlock its true potential. (Which, now that I think about it, sounds like what Ice-Pick Lodge wants to do with gaming...) The specifics of this are never revealed, to my knowledge, other than Maria's glimpses of her future rule.

The Polyhedron is consistently the ultimate source of the plague in each scenario--this is not always stated (if ever?) but it is consistently strongly implied. The Bachelor learns the least and has the dimmest picture of the world's mysteries, but even his scenario drops some hints, if only from the lack of real answers. His map art even eventually depicts the bull's blood vessels coming into contact with the Tower's barb jabbing deep inside it.

In the Haruspex scenario, the Tower is obviously harming the udurgh that is the living Settlement; the mystical blood in the Earth's depths is real, and the Earth bleeds at the Tower's base. The Haruspex's map art emphasizes the blood vessels and suggests an infected wound.

I am uncertain if the Bachelor scenario deals with this very much, but the Haruspex and Changeling scenarios delve into the philosophical and metaphysical nature of the plague. Both of these scenarios strongly hint, or even state, that is the Tower's subversion of the natural order that has given rise to the plague. It is my opinion that the Earth and the Law are one, or at least closely related. Aglaya is an emissary of the Law, and she has a personal hatred of the Tower. Clara is also described (sometimes) as an emissary of the Law, and she was spawned from the Earth. The Tower is often described in conversation with the Stamatins as subverting natural laws, or even defeating or surpassing them. The one evil in the story, according to the Creators, is Inevitability, and the plague was merely its shape. It is no coincidence that the Tower not only flaunts Inevitability by making dreams and childhood eternal and giving reality to impossible architecture and vision, but also flaunts the avatar of Inevitability, the plague, by being the one place in the Town inaccessible to it. Every commoner house, every Bound house, and the entire Termitary are at the mercy of the disease. Well, aside from the Abattoir, but who knows what that might mean.

Another random tidbit that crossed my mind is the nature of the Children/Powers That Be. Clara has one line that suggests they might actually be children from the Town itself, which would actually fit with what we know about the Polyhedron... maybe. It can make any dream real. But how real? Can it give children power over the real world? Probably not, because then why would it be merely those two Children affecting the whole town? But we do know from dialogue between the Haruspex and the Inquisitor, once Artemy has seen the Children, that Aglaya knows she too is a plaything. She even has knowledge of the "real" world (or the one that the Children are from) and mentions that they, too, are living through a plague. Really, there is no proof I am aware of suggesting that the Children couldn't be from a town exactly like the setting of Pathologic. And I do mean exactly. Simon was known to everyone. He played with the children of the town. What if, when they say grandfather, they really do mean Simon, the resident of the Town-on-Gorkhon? What if they live in the real Town, and the game they are playingis a pretend version of the Town where they have added saviors?

Probably not literally true, but something to think about. I'm fond of that interpretation as a distinct possibility, anyway.

Of course I could be wrong on literally all of this!

[root1902]

Wow! That's certainly an interesting theory! I'll definitely have to come back to it once I've finished the Bachelor scenario again.

[Real Sandwich]

Friggin' awesome thoughts, everyone! I might add some of my own ideas on this very intricate and multi-layered puzzle at some point.

To be honest, I sometimes have a hard time pinning down what I believe to be the true meaning of the Town, Polyhedron, the player's role in the game, et.c, because I keep finding new tidbits of information and small details that demands further thought.

[Anderson]

These theories should be digitally immortalized or something.