is rivals 2 not going to have workshop support?

[agentlouisiana1]

hello forum full of dedicated fans to a game i'm going to rip apart like a turducken in heat.

i was gonna ask that after seeing the rivals 2 kickstarter in all new 3-D, is the game not gonna have workshop?? because being perfectly honest, not one single person who isn't already a fan of this game is going to want to play as the base characters. no kid is gonna ask their mom for a Kragg toy.

it's essentially commiting sales suicide if the sequel doesn't have workshop because i don't think i've EVER touched the base characters and i actually LIKED ori and the blind forest.

is the game gonna have workshop or will i and (being perfectly honest) anyone that isn't a diehard Zetterburn fan save our $30 for rivals 1 or something else with obama as a playable character?

[mdesaleah]

It wont.

Which definitely wont help it when it comes to being popular. Especially since they're changing the gameplay to be more like Smash, but without having the legacy of using characters from different series.

So Smash-like players will just stick to Smash, while Rivals players will just stick to 1 in the end since it has Workshop and its generally more unique with mechanics.

Even though the game will definitely be good in the end.

[Azelinuu]

the modding update bringing tourists to the game that have somehow convinced themselves the game simply never had a community or following before the workshop update has been disastrous

[D YellowMadness]

引用自 Azelinuu：

the modding update bringing tourists to the game that have somehow convinced themselves the game simply never had a community or following before the workshop update has been disastrous

It's not that it didn't have a fanbase. It's that its fanbase was much smaller & most of the fanbase that exists now (and to a lesser degree even before the workshop update) likes the game for aspects that the sequel goes out of its way to throw out in favor of just being Smash but minus the things that make Smash popular.

Also, it's not tourism if you stick around & love the product. Don't be so pretentious. You're not the true Scotsman. You're just a self appointed gatekeeper.

[Azelinuu]

引用自 D YellowMadness：

引用自 Azelinuu：

the modding update bringing tourists to the game that have somehow convinced themselves the game simply never had a community or following before the workshop update has been disastrous

It's not that it didn't have a fanbase. It's that its fanbase was much smaller & most of the fanbase that exists now (and to a lesser degree even before the workshop update) likes the game for aspects that the sequel goes out of its way to throw out in favor of just being Smash but minus the things that make Smash popular.

Also, it's not tourism if you stick around & love the product. Don't be so pretentious. You're not the true Scotsman. You're just a self appointed gatekeeper.

"not one single person who isn't already a fan of this game is going to want to play as the base characters"

"it's essentially committing sales suicide if the sequel doesn't have workshop"

"is the game gonna have workshop or will i and (being perfectly honest) anyone that isn't a diehard Zetterburn fan save our $30 for rivals 1 or something else with obama as a playable character?"

I made fun of the term tourist in regards to Strive discourse but I genuinely think the word applies here because I don't think anyone that likes the game for what it is would say this, I know people who exclusively play workshop characters that have never said this

if "most of the fanbase" truly hates the direction the sequel is going, I don't think it would've reached its fundraising goal 3 hours after being posted while its being constantly praised by people who've played its unfinished builds

[agentlouisiana1]

引用自 mdesaleah：

It wont.

Which definitely wont help it when it comes to being popular. Especially since they're changing the gameplay to be more like Smash, but without having the legacy of using characters from different series.

So Smash-like players will just stick to Smash, while Rivals players will just stick to 1 in the end since it has Workshop and its generally more unique with mechanics.

Even though the game will definitely be good in the end.

woah this is a.. levelheaded response?? what the ♥♥♥♥?

引用自 Azelinuu：

the modding update bringing tourists to the game that have somehow convinced themselves the game simply never had a community or following before the workshop update has been disastrous

yeah and my point isn't "will the die hard fans not care" my point is "will anyone who isn't a die hard fan care about some game called rivals 2 that's smash brothers with some characters no-one's even heard of

at least stuff like multiversus had the fact you could play as BATMAN

[Azelinuu]

引用自 indianaliam1：

yeah and my point isn't "will the die hard fans not care" my point is "will anyone who isn't a die hard fan care about some game called rivals 2 that's smash brothers with some characters no-one's even heard of

at least stuff like multiversus had the fact you could play as BATMAN

yes?

that just sounds like you love crossovers with franchises you already care about because people have played and gotten into platform fighters, or any fighting game really, without knowing any of the characters or it being a mix of established properties

[agentlouisiana1]

引用自 Azelinuu：

引用自 indianaliam1：

yeah and my point isn't "will the die hard fans not care" my point is "will anyone who isn't a die hard fan care about some game called rivals 2 that's smash brothers with some characters no-one's even heard of

at least stuff like multiversus had the fact you could play as BATMAN

yes?

that just sounds like you love crossovers with franchises you already care about because people have played and gotten into platform fighters, or any fighting game really, without knowing any of the characters or it being a mix of established properties

again with the you thing

once again i'm saying this game sold BECAUSE of the crossovers, smash originally got big because it was a novel thing to see link beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of pikachu, such with every other MASCOT fighter

you can't expect audiences to enjoy some random lion dude, ori from that one xbox one game and shovel knight of wii u amiibo fame to really bring an audience apart from redditors

[Azelinuu]

引用自 indianaliam1：

引用自 Azelinuu：

yes?

that just sounds like you love crossovers with franchises you already care about because people have played and gotten into platform fighters, or any fighting game really, without knowing any of the characters or it being a mix of established properties

again with the you thing

once again i'm saying this game sold BECAUSE of the crossovers, smash originally got big because it was a novel thing to see link beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of pikachu, such with every other MASCOT fighter

you can't expect audiences to enjoy some random lion dude, ori from that one xbox one game and shovel knight of wii u amiibo fame to really bring an audience apart from redditors

because Obama would really bring in the big bucks and definitely isn't something a redditor would want

[D YellowMadness]

引用自 Azelinuu：

引用自 D YellowMadness：

It's not that it didn't have a fanbase. It's that its fanbase was much smaller & most of the fanbase that exists now (and to a lesser degree even before the workshop update) likes the game for aspects that the sequel goes out of its way to throw out in favor of just being Smash but minus the things that make Smash popular.

Also, it's not tourism if you stick around & love the product. Don't be so pretentious. You're not the true Scotsman. You're just a self appointed gatekeeper.

"not one single person who isn't already a fan of this game is going to want to play as the base characters"

"it's essentially committing sales suicide if the sequel doesn't have workshop"

"is the game gonna have workshop or will i and (being perfectly honest) anyone that isn't a diehard Zetterburn fan save our $30 for rivals 1 or something else with obama as a playable character?"

I made fun of the term tourist in regards to Strive discourse but I genuinely think the word applies here because I don't think anyone that likes the game for what it is would say this, I know people who exclusively play workshop characters that have never said this

if "most of the fanbase" truly hates the direction the sequel is going, I don't think it would've reached its fundraising goal 3 hours after being posted while its being constantly praised by people who've played its unfinished builds

None of those quotes are things I said. None of them are very unreasonable though either. This is a game designed to be similar to Smash but with some key changes that make its gameplay distinct & it sucked hard at first because the base roster is a horribly imblanaced uninteresting mess. They fixed that by adding workshop support.

The sequel has no workshop support & is designed to have nearly identical gameplay to Smash. It's also 3D specifically because Smash is. Which is also why there's no workshop. It has no selling point & no soul.

As for the funding goal, that's not an indication that the fanbase in general is interested. It just means people with enough money collectively are interested or at least were at some point. Why would any significant number of people wanna buy Smash with Rivals base cast when they could get Smash Ultimate, Melee, Smash But Nickelodeon, Terrible Smash But WB, or Rivals of Aether?

引用自 Azelinuu：

引用自 indianaliam1：

again with the you thing

once again i'm saying this game sold BECAUSE of the crossovers, smash originally got big because it was a novel thing to see link beating the ♥♥♥♥ out of pikachu, such with every other MASCOT fighter

you can't expect audiences to enjoy some random lion dude, ori from that one xbox one game and shovel knight of wii u amiibo fame to really bring an audience apart from redditors

because Obama would really bring in the big bucks and definitely isn't something a redditor would want

I agree with you on this one. Joke characters are less a selling point & more a novelty. A bonus that might help convince someone who was already considering buying it.

[agentlouisiana1]

引用自 Azelinuu：

because Obama would really bring in the big bucks and definitely isn't something a redditor would want

wow i actually agree with this one. no complaints there.

i was more talking about the fact that more marketable people, a la mario would get people interested. obama was just a bad example.

引用自 D YellowMadness：

None of those quotes are things I said. None of them are very unreasonable though either.

he's quoting me LOL

edit because i forgot to finish my argument LMFAOO

[Azelinuu]

引用自 D YellowMadness：

None of those quotes are things I said. None of them are very unreasonable though either.

you didn't say it, OP did

引用自 D YellowMadness：

This is a game designed to be similar to Smash but with some key changes that make its gameplay distinct & it sucked hard at first because the base roster is a horribly imblanaced uninteresting mess. They fixed that by adding workshop support.

I'd argue they're all quite balanced among each other seeing as every character has had some sort of tournament presence, I won't argue for or against whether or not the characters are interesting.

The Workshop itself is also its own special bag of balance issues as some balance around the base cast and others do whatever they want. Queuing for Workshop online is already hell since people sub to blatantly overpowered characters, garbage meme ones, or...they simply don't have the characters you're subbed to for whatever reason; maybe you don't have the popular characters. If you don't have the characters they do, 9 times out of 10 they leave. I wouldn't say Workshop "fixed" anything about the base game overall, unless you count having matches with friends or the AI, in which case I'd relent on that point.

引用自 D YellowMadness：

The sequel has no workshop support & is designed to have nearly identical gameplay to Smash. It's also 3D specifically because Smash is. Which is also why there's no workshop. It has no selling point & no soul.

Rivals 2 being 3D is because its both more cost efficient in the long run and easier to manage. Models are easier to edit and animations are easier to polish, and you can do those without having to redo entire sprite sheets. Kragg needed an entire sprite overall, Zetterburn was butt naked until DE, multiple characters needed animation touch-ups to their moves through the game's lifespan, and this last point is cosmetic, the alternate costumes required an artist to edit every single sprite a character has.

The selling point for Rivals 2 is that its still Rivals. They kept every mechanic Rivals 1 had and added more mechanics to it that aren't replicated in Smash like the new grapple break mechanic, all-covering shields, and ledge / get-up specials. I'm not arguing against the "no soul" statement because people seem to say that about any game they don't like.

引用自 D YellowMadness：

As for the funding goal, that's not an indication that the fanbase in general is interested. It just means people with enough money collectively are interested or at least were at some point.

That'd be assuming the fanbase just didn't fund the game somehow. They'd be the first to know of it and they'd be the most likely to fund it without a second thought. The Kickstarter didn't skip over the fanbase and magically find people who've never heard of the game before that wanted to spend 1000 something dollars.

引用自 D YellowMadness：

Why would any significant number of people wanna buy Smash with Rivals base cast when they could get Smash Ultimate, Melee, Smash But Nickelodeon, Terrible Smash But WB, or Rivals of Aether?

Every game you listed has things unique to them that people would prefer over all the others; why would Rivals 2 be different? Everything you listed would most likely be bought by people who already like platform fighters regardless because you can have more than one of them in your circle of games.

[D YellowMadness]

The problem isn't that people can't have two similar games. It's that they're far less likely to want to if a vastly inferior game in regards to content & balance does very little to distinguish itself, especially if it's obscure & has little to nothing in the ways of preexisting recognizable content. Especially if it's a sequel to a game that has none of those problems.

My point about the Kickstarter thing wasn't that the funders aren't fans. It was that you don't need a large portion of the fanbase to build up the money so the money isn't really much an example of interest.

And I didn't say it has no soul because I don't think I'll like (although that is true). I said it because it traded away its identity & 99% of its appeal in favor of being a Smash game despite clearly not having the budget, workforce, & preexisting work necessary to compete with Smash Ultimate. It comes off as an incredibly corporate decision.

I get your point about 3D being more cost effective but that only applies to the base roster, which I have no faith in the quality of because the first game's base roster feels like no attempt was ever made at balancing any move for any character. Like they just chose speeds, hit radiuses, & damage outputs at random.

The workshop is where the characters that matter are but most modders aren't gonna be able to animate well in 3D, especially in such a way that different modders characters look right side by side. I find the sequel about as interesting as a Smash sequel where you can only play as miis & RPG self insert sword users.

[mdesaleah]

I think its more an importance of characters and content.

Rivals 1 base characters have no immediate recognition since they are all original, but then the Workshop comes in to add characters people already know and practically infinite content as long as there are modders. So in that way Rivals 1 is a standout option and can be recognized among other games like Smash.

Rivals 2 is going to have the problem of being stuck with the original characters. Which is going to be THE problem with trying to get attention.

I could mention mechanics, but contrary to experts, mechanics in fighting games actually don't really matter in terms of getting a casual appeal. A majority of players for Rivals 1 didn't want to buy it because of its wall-jump recovery and lack of shields. Most casual players probably cant tell how much adding shields and grabs in 2 will change how it works, they probably won't even tell that there even is a change to begin with if they havent played 1.

Like most didnt buy Dragon Ball FighterZ for its immediate mechanics. And a game like Marvel VS Capcom Infinite was technically a good fighting game for mechanics, but everything else was a massive downgrade from the previous game so its a general disappointment.

[D YellowMadness]

引用自 mdesaleah：

I think its more an importance of characters and content.

Rivals 1 base characters have no immediate recognition since they are all original, but then the Workshop comes in to add characters people already know and practically infinite content as long as there are modders. So in that way Rivals 1 is a standout option and can be recognized among other games like Smash.

Rivals 2 is going to have the problem of being stuck with the original characters. Which is going to be THE problem with trying to get attention.

I could mention mechanics, but contrary to experts, mechanics in fighting games actually don't really matter in terms of getting a casual appeal. A majority of players for Rivals 1 didn't want to buy it because of its wall-jump recovery and lack of shields. Most casual players probably cant tell how much adding shields and grabs in 2 will change how it works, they probably won't even tell that there even is a change to begin with if they havent played 1.

Probably true. I only started to realize how cool the gameplay ghanges differentiating Rivals 1 from Smash really were when I was watching tournament videos to really decide whether or not to spend $30 for it but I only started going to that effort to research it because I was extremely interested already because I saw how amazing some of the workshop characters were.

Which means that although the gameplay got me fully convinced, the real bulk of the sales pitch was just how fun Minun and Plusle, Kris, Spamton, Yuuto, & Goku looked. The New Nickelodeon game is the opposite for me. It seems to finally have the gameplay & animation improvements its predecessor needed but it doesn't matter because they removed nearly every character I cared about & decided to put 3 fire benders in it.

[agentlouisiana1]

引用自 mdesaleah：

I could mention mechanics, but contrary to experts, mechanics in fighting games actually don't really matter in terms of getting a casual appeal.

to add onto this, whilst i wade into fighting games barely staying the ♥♥♥♥ away from online play, i will say that Halo got ruined by this exact thing. they asked pros what they wanted to see, and therefore if you ask any pro they'll say their favourite was halo 5 (or 2 but because it was so broken)

ask any casual and they'll say it's halo 3 because that was the most fun one. halo 5 is easily the most hated when you ask anyone who doesn't play 10,000 hours studying ♥♥♥♥♥♥ lockout lol.

swap some of these words around and it's going to be every discussion after rivals 2 launches.