DBD is Fundamentally Broken by Design

[[PsI] Operative13]

I hate this game.

When I first started playing DBD, I was eager to learn and get better, refining my skills and ultimately reach a point where I can be consistent with my escapes/kills. But after sinking so many thousands of hours into the game, I've come to the realization why I feel so miserable playing this game. I've gotten better, much better than I was when I first started. Yet I feel stuck, as if nothing has moved and I'm still struggling day-after-day to break even. It's never rewarding. If you play as survivor, you either will spend a good chunk of time getting tunneled out before you either have to clutch a game all by yourself with the team dragging you down or get carried so hard the game is over in 5 minutes before you did anything. If you play as killer, you will spend so long chasing survivors through so many infinite loops, god pallets or unmind-gameable tiles that you are forced into tunneling, camping, slugging, or 3-genning just to slow down the game.

And that's not even counting the plethora of problematic perks and killers that straight up ignore the fundamentals of DBD gameplay.

DBD at its core does not encourage fair gameplay. It is built on "Stat-padding" and selling stats as its business model. Getting chased down or can't catch up? Here's a haste/hinder effect. Feeling like you get downed too much or you can't land hits? Here's some endurance/exposed effects. Does it feel like your hooks are too far or too close? We got offerings that'll do just that.

In most games, stat-adjustments are very minor. They give you a slight edge but not anything that'll completely break the core balance of the game. Not in DBD. When they stat-pad, they make it as obvious (and infuriating) as possible. The best killers can zoom around the map in 4 seconds and completely ignore looping. The best survivors stack together with 16 boosted perks that'll completely negate any pressure from a normal M1 killer.

It's taken me a long time to realize that it's not me that's the problem. It's the game and the awful design decisions that BHVR has made as their core business model. True to their name, they are taking advantage of my suffering through rigging games with unfair stats and matchmaking to encourage me to stay longer and play in the false narrative that I need to "Git Gud". The problems the community has been moaning about for 10+ years is not BHVR being incompetent. It's them making a conscious decision to make us suffer. They know it's a problem, and they are selling the solution to that problem like a snake oil salesman. Just look at the new content they've been pushing out all this time. It's all stat-padding content. All the new killers? They do 3 things that other killers do, but better. All the new perks? Stat pad haste and endurance, because it's not enough to survive, you shouldn't get downed at all.

It's clear the devs have the ability to do better with DBD. Just look at the 2v8 mode and the events. They have the ability to go beyond the gen/hook gameplay and do something with actual substance. But they rather take the easy route and just pad stats for eternity, never fully balancing the game, because otherwise people will realize just how silly and boring the game loop is. Because otherwise they can't take advantage of their own community cannibalizing itself on toxic, unfair mechanics.

I'm taking a break. I don't know when I'll be back, but I feel terrible for thinking there was a point to keep playing.

[A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?]

"DBD is Fundamentally Broken by Design"

I mean they made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ perk that give you haste for Vaulting a window.
If anything, this should pinpoint about how absurd the game has become and how much they want to help the survivor xD

[Squeaky the Zepa]

Survivors and Killers both have broken perks. It's not a one-side-versus-the-other debate. Please don't try to boil it down to such a thing. The problem isn't with the perks, it's not with the gameplay, it's with the community and how much vitriol people bubble up in their gut. DbD was NEVER supposed to be a competitive game. It's asymmetrical. By DESIGN it's not fit for competitive play, but people trying to force it into that position is the reason why you end up with the mindset of "Only playing dirty will let me stand a chance" or "All survivors are stacking as much as possible to make the Killer miserable."

If you want some genuine, honest and respectful advice, I'd highly recommend uninstalling the game and taking a long break from it. I'm serious, I promise I'm not just patronizing you. If you enjoy DbD and are just feeling fed up, maybe still keep tabs on things by following news or watching videos, but don't play it for at least a month, if not longer. I had a six month break and just came back to the game last month. It helps with the sense of spinning your wheels, and ultimately if you find yourself generally not missing the game then, well, it's already uninstalled. At the end of the day, it's a game and games should be fun. They should never be a source of distress, and you have to be cognizant of if they are reaching that point and try to resolve the reason why. As it stands, I think your conclusions are too heavily emotionally charged as they are, because they're taking a stance of vilifying the development of the game. BHVR is ultimately still a business, and they need to make money to stay afloat and pay their employees. It's people minmaxing that is causing the problems you describe. BHVR isn't writing the meta, after all, and nobody is forcing you to follow it. I sure as hell don't. That's boring and ends up with every match playing more or less the same.

If you do come back, make a point not to take it too seriously. Focus on tome challenges, so even if you lose a match if you complete or progress a challenge it's still a "win" in some way. Refocus what exactly even constitutes a win, for that matter. Like, if I die but everyone else makes it out as a Survivor? I call that a win. I have no problem taking one for the team. If I score two or more kills as a Killer? That's good enough. In fact, playing with that mindset has actually made it to where I can now regularly 4K unless the enemy team is SUPER coordinated, just because I don't have a feeling of any pressure to perform well. It dramatically reduces the tension that seems to be inherent in most of the community judging from how knee-jerk hostile people are to one another. With any luck, you might be able to find satisfaction in the game again with that kind of perspective. Oh, and if anyone ever tells you to "git gud"? Free pass to ignore them and mark them off as a fool that takes things way too seriously. Unless you're a tournament player, games are for having fun. They're not a second job. People who treat them like one are the exact people who end up spoiling the sport. You can be competitive without being an errant asshat about it. I love a good competition, myself, but there's basic standards of minimal respect everyone deserves and should show. If they don't offer that or show it? Screw them, it's not worth even considering their opinion, because they clearly don't care about yours.

[[PsI] Operative13]

Originally posted by Squeaky the Zepa:

Survivors and Killers both have broken perks. It's not a one-side-versus-the-other debate. Please don't try to boil it down to such a thing. The problem isn't with the perks, it's not with the gameplay, it's with the community and how much vitriol people bubble up in their gut. DbD was NEVER supposed to be a competitive game. It's asymmetrical. By DESIGN it's not fit for competitive play, but people trying to force it into that position is the reason why you end up with the mindset of "Only playing dirty will let me stand a chance" or "All survivors are stacking as much as possible to make the Killer miserable."

If you want some genuine, honest and respectful advice, I'd highly recommend uninstalling the game and taking a long break from it. I'm serious, I promise I'm not just patronizing you. If you enjoy DbD and are just feeling fed up, maybe still keep tabs on things by following news or watching videos, but don't play it for at least a month, if not longer. I had a six month break and just came back to the game last month. It helps with the sense of spinning your wheels, and ultimately if you find yourself generally not missing the game then, well, it's already uninstalled. At the end of the day, it's a game and games should be fun. They should never be a source of distress, and you have to be cognizant of if they are reaching that point and try to resolve the reason why. As it stands, I think your conclusions are too heavily emotionally charged as they are, because they're taking a stance of vilifying the development of the game. BHVR is ultimately still a business, and they need to make money to stay afloat and pay their employees. It's people minmaxing that is causing the problems you describe. BHVR isn't writing the meta, after all, and nobody is forcing you to follow it. I sure as hell don't. That's boring and ends up with every match playing more or less the same.

If you do come back, make a point not to take it too seriously. Focus on tome challenges, so even if you lose a match if you complete or progress a challenge it's still a "win" in some way. Refocus what exactly even constitutes a win, for that matter. Like, if I die but everyone else makes it out as a Survivor? I call that a win. I have no problem taking one for the team. If I score two or more kills as a Killer? That's good enough. In fact, playing with that mindset has actually made it to where I can now regularly 4K unless the enemy team is SUPER coordinated, just because I don't have a feeling of any pressure to perform well. It dramatically reduces the tension that seems to be inherent in most of the community judging from how knee-jerk hostile people are to one another. With any luck, you might be able to find satisfaction in the game again with that kind of perspective. Oh, and if anyone ever tells you to "git gud"? Free pass to ignore them and mark them off as a fool that takes things way too seriously. Unless you're a tournament player, games are for having fun. They're not a second job. People who treat them like one are the exact people who end up spoiling the sport. You can be competitive without being an errant asshat about it. I love a good competition, myself, but there's basic standards of minimal respect everyone deserves and should show. If they don't offer that or show it? Screw them, it's not worth even considering their opinion, because they clearly don't care about yours.

I have problems with this mindset. What it's saying is that you should detach yourself from the issues. But that by itself does not solve the issue. It's just ignoring it. It's ignoring that the game is not fun. It's disassociation. I've done that several times. And let me tell you, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It always finds a way to creep back no matter what because the problem is not you, it's the system you're in. You are literally putting yourself in a bad situation and telling yourself that the bad situation isn't your problem.

I'm not going to give BHVR a break just because it's toxic people that are contributing to the bad environment. Simply allowing such people to stay already says a lot about the kind of environment BHVR wants for their game. It's misleading to say it's only toxic people that are the problem, every game has that. It's very different if it is widespread. They are not the same thing. If I jump into a game, I should not have to deal with frustration every single time I hit play. Statistically, that should be impossible. You may get a bad game every 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 100, but for every single game to have a bad experience? If a game is doing that every match, then it's the game, not the community.

[A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?]

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

I have problems with this mindset. What it's saying is that you should detach yourself from the issues. But that by itself does not solve the issue. It's just ignoring it. It's ignoring that the game is not fun. It's disassociation. I've done that several times. And let me tell you, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It always finds a way to creep back no matter what because the problem is not you, it's the system you're in. You are literally putting yourself in a bad situation and telling yourself that the bad situation isn't your problem.

I'm not going to give BHVR a break just because it's toxic people that are contributing to the bad environment. Simply allowing such people to stay already says a lot about the kind of environment BHVR wants for their game. It's misleading to say it's only toxic people that are the problem, every game has that. It's very different if it is widespread. They are not the same thing. If I jump into a game, I should not have to deal with frustration every single time I hit play. Statistically, that should be impossible. You may get a bad game every 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 100, but for every single game to have a bad experience? If a game is doing that every match, then it's the game, not the community.

You're not wrong, but since you're (probably) not a millionaire that can buy out BHVR to take he head and solve these issue, there isn't much you can do.
We can complain and hope they finnally take good decision but that's about it.

That why, without agreeing 100% with the other post, I do agree that taking a break if the game start to wear to much on you is the good play.
You can't control the dev, but you can control your decision to just quit for something else.

And who knows, that might have a bigger impact than a post on a forum given that if the number start to fall bellow 10 or 5 K player, the studio might start realizing they should actually listen.

[[PsI] Operative13]

Originally posted by A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?:

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

I have problems with this mindset. What it's saying is that you should detach yourself from the issues. But that by itself does not solve the issue. It's just ignoring it. It's ignoring that the game is not fun. It's disassociation. I've done that several times. And let me tell you, ignoring it doesn't make it go away. It always finds a way to creep back no matter what because the problem is not you, it's the system you're in. You are literally putting yourself in a bad situation and telling yourself that the bad situation isn't your problem.

I'm not going to give BHVR a break just because it's toxic people that are contributing to the bad environment. Simply allowing such people to stay already says a lot about the kind of environment BHVR wants for their game. It's misleading to say it's only toxic people that are the problem, every game has that. It's very different if it is widespread. They are not the same thing. If I jump into a game, I should not have to deal with frustration every single time I hit play. Statistically, that should be impossible. You may get a bad game every 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 100, but for every single game to have a bad experience? If a game is doing that every match, then it's the game, not the community.

You're not wrong, but since you're (probably) not a millionaire that can buy out BHVR to take he head and solve these issue, there isn't much you can do.
We can complain and hope they finnally take good decision but that's about it.

That why, without agreeing 100% with the other post, I do agree that taking a break if the game start to wear to much on you is the good play.
You can't control the dev, but you can control your decision to just quit for something else.

And who knows, that might have a bigger impact than a post on a forum given that if the number start to fall bellow 10 or 5 K player, the studio might start realizing they should actually listen.

TBF part of this post is just me venting, and the other part is legitimately asking why I'm venting in the first place. Maybe others might see something out of this and reflect on why they're continuing to play themselves.

Either way, I'm at a crossroads. When I love a game, I will play it for thousands of hours. When I hate it, I never touch it again. I'm reaching the point where it's the latter.

[oecrophy [BOT]]

you will never, no matter how cracked you get, escape or 4K consistently. Ever. It’s just not gonna happen, cuz there’s always a human on the other side, tryharding themself just as much as you are.

And yeah, you’ll lose to players who are way worse than you.
Yeah, some stuff happens that’s straight up undeserved.
It feels wrong.

Undeserved.

Everything but fair. But like—why does that bother you so much?

This game never was and never will be a “comp” game. It’s asymmetrical, and tbh, a lot of that chaos and unbalance is the point.

There’s ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
But that’s what makes the matches interesting. Would you really want every round to be this dry, fair, grayscale matchup where everything’s 50/50 and predictable as hell?

Half the fun is the game being dumb sometimes.
The perks that ignore base mechanics?

That’s why you get those moments where someone is clowning on the killer the whole game and then boooom— suddenly they’re downed and it all went downwards.

Or a killer who’s been getting clapped suddenly snowballs outta nowhere.

That’s the spice. That’s what gives the game its flavor.



If the game was fully balanced, you could honestly just end the match after 3 gens pop, look at hook states and call it. GG go next.
But the fact that it’s not fair is exactly what keeps it tense.

A killer might be destroying—then suddenly one cracked chase flips the whole game.
That’s hype.

The real issue?
It's the “git gud” mentality. People thinking DBD’s supposed to be fair. It’s not. Sometimes it escalates. Hard. And fast.
And sometimes the weaker side wins anyway. That’s just DBD.

It’s asymmetrical—it has to be like that. People just take it way too seriously.

And nobody’s really asking themselves:
Do I really want every match to be 100% balanced, super fair, best side always wins, no surprises, no drama, just dry predictable outcomes mid-match?
Is that even fun?

The chaos is the fun. The one unfair moment that flips everything on its head—that’s what makes DBD DBD.

I don’t think the problem is balance.

I think the problem is the community.
People got it burned into their skulls that if someone dies or gets 4K’d, it’s because one side is “better” or “worse.”
(Which BHVR feeds into by pushing kills/escapes as the only “win conditions.”)

The real issue?
There’s barely any room for interaction or downtime, so both sides just tunnel vision on efficiency.
And once again—because “kills = win” or “escapes = win.” Screw you for that, BHVR.

Also—so many content creators hyping DBD up like it’s some hyper competitive esport when it’s really not.
DBD ain’t built for the better side to always win. And honestly? That’s a good thing.


Stuff that the other side literally can’t counter is just lame.
Like, when there’s nothing the killer can do? That’s just bad design.
But honestly, if you look back at where the game was in like 2017-2018... it’s wild how much better it’s gotten since then.


/edit:

BHVR really needs to stop pushing kills and escapes as the only win conditions. That mindset is literally making everything worse.
Like, killers who barely scrape a win against a super strong and cracked team. will get told “EZ” in post-chat, just cuz the game wasn't "fair" for once.
And then you’ve got survivors who got insta-downed all game, carried by busted perks/bad rng/for the killer a bad map or some other dumb unfair BS—typing “ez babykiller” like they outplayed anyone.

They haven’t.
DBD was never fair. So it’s just not.


This whole " kills/escape is your win system " only feeds and fuels the toxic ego loop. It’s dumb.

People seriously need to let go of this mindset that dying = you’re bad and getting kills = you’re a god.
Like common.. , just 'cause you didn’t get the 4K (or or you die) doesn’t mean they were cracked outta their minds.
And even if they were better... so what? Why you taking it so damn personal?



But like, that’s the fun of it—when some totally busted, unfair ♥♥♥♥ goes down outta nowhere.
Keeps it fresh, keeps it wild.

[A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?]

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

Either way, I'm at a crossroads. When I love a game, I will play it for thousands of hours. When I hate it, I never touch it again. I'm reaching the point where it's the latter.

I totally get you.

For what's worth here's my share of experience:
frrom my 800 to 1100 hours I was struggling as hell, and couldn't do sh!t against SWF or actually good survivor on good surv map like AutoHeaven , MeatPlan etc...
In the last hundred hours I saw myself drastically improve, now I can hold my fair share even against stacks with my Legion.
I now take better decision and I'm not affraid to actually employ "toxic" tactics if that's what I need to do to secure a win. For example: Surv offer AutoHeaven and now I'm on this map ? Alright, I secure one Hook, then camp here and force them to come if they want to unhook. Most of the time I end up with a draw or even 3 kill.
Same goes for SWF that play together, I'm not affraid of slugging, or using "crude" way to win for example I kept two survivor in the wrong part of a loop (= gate was behind me) and kept going left and right to force the BloodLust to ramp up, once i got BloodLust 3 I chased and managed to down them because of my speed boost.
So now I do things like that, and you know what ? I have good result.
As I said I'm no longer losing 99% of my SWF game or "bad map" game, it's more of a 50-50.
Heck , MeatPlan is even one of my fav map now I learn how to play as a killer on it.

I see triple flashlight in Loby ? Lightborn + HaddonField here we go, you asked for it.

However, do I feel happy about this ?
Hell no.
It's "fun" to kill , stomp and punish survivor that wanted to troll me, 100% , I love punishing them and seeing them rage in post-game chat.
But the issue is that it's the majority of game now. So my "Dbd experience" is punishing other.
For real it's not healthy or "fun", it's not a "fun game", it's a "sadistic game", that's way different.
I would love to actually have decent game and decent matchmaking have gg each other, but those are a minority with a majority of toxic survivor and a middle ground of normal player that still use meta perk that are frustrating (yeah sorry but beeing flashed from 90 angle isn't normal, balanced, or fun).

So you're not alone in this.
Personnaly I keep playing because I'm addicted, and I don't have anything else to do in my life, I'm just a lifeless shut in that hop in to have my share of adrenaline, hence why I love playing Legion, the "human like" killer that run everywhere.
But would I advice anyone to do the same or play this game ? Hell no.
This is the most toxic game ever, I'm pretty sure even League of Legend has its toxicity stop at the gate of its game, whereas DbD you have people that come and harass you in your Steam Profile and even take offense if you dare delet their mean coment.

So yeah, my real point of view, my honest real point of view that might get this coment deleted by mods:

This game is just an asylum for degenerate and low-life people. And I'm 100% admiting I fit in it, in a certain way.
Up to you to accept the pro and cons of playing in an Asylum or just run away to greener square.
There is some great RPG that came out recently...

[oecrophy [BOT]]

Originally posted by A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?:

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

Either way, I'm at a crossroads. When I love a game, I will play it for thousands of hours. When I hate it, I never touch it again. I'm reaching the point where it's the latter.

I totally get you.

For what's worth here's my share of experience:
frrom my 800 to 1100 hours I was struggling as hell, and couldn't do sh!t against SWF or actually good survivor on good surv map like AutoHeaven , MeatPlan etc...
In the last hundred hours I saw myself drastically improve, now I can hold my fair share even against stacks with my Legion.
I now take better decision and I'm not affraid to actual employ "toxic" tactics if that's what I need to do to secure a win. For example: Surv offer AutoHeaven and now I'm on this map ? Alright, I secure one Hook, then camp here and force them to come if they want to unhook. Most of the time I end up with a draw or even 3 kill.
Same goes for SWF that play together, I'm not affraid of slugging, or using "crude" way to win for example I kept two survivor in the wrong part of a loop (= gate was behind me) and kept going left and right to force the BloodLust to ramp up, once i got BloodLust 3 I chased and managed to down them because of my speed boost.
So now I do things like that, and you know what ? I have good result.
As I said I'm no longer losing 99% of my SWF game or "bad map" game, it's more of a 50-50.

I see triple flashlight in Loby ? Lightborn + HaddonField here we go, you asked for it.

However, do I feel happy about this ?
Hell no.
It's "fun" to kill , stomp and punish survivor that wanted to troll me, 100% , I love punishing them and seeing them rage in post-game chat.
But the issue is that it's the majority of game now. So my "Dbd experience" is punishing other.
For real it's not healthy or "fun", it's not a "fun game", it's a "sadistic game", that's way different.
I would love to actually have decent game and decent matchmaking have gg each other, but those are a minority with a majority of toxic survivor and a middle ground of normal player that still use meta perk that are frustrating (yeah sorry but beeing flashed from 90 angle isn't normal, balanced, or fun).

So you're not alone in this.
Personnaly I keep playing because I'm addicted, and I don't have anything else to do in my life, I'm just a lifeless shut in that hop in to have my share of adrenaline, hence why I love playing Legion, the "human like" killer that run everywhere.
But would I advice anyone to do the same or play this game ? Hell no.
This is the most toxic game ever, I'm pretty sure even League of Legend has its toxicity stop at the gate of its game, whereas DbD you have people that come and harass you in your Steam Profile and even take offense if you dare delet their mean coment.

So yeah, my real point of view, my honest real point of view that might get this coment deleted by mods:

This game is just an asylum for degenerate and low-life people. And I'm 100% admiting I fit it in a certain way.
Up to you to accept the pro and cons of playing in an Asylum or just run away to greener square.
There is some great RPG that came out recently...

But... if I may chime in for a sec...

All good, all fine — but:
You camping and tunneling? That’s not toxic.
Sure, it’s unfair sometimes. Sure, it can break even strong teams. But that’s exactly what I was talking about earlier — that’s what brings flavor to the game.

Yeah, it's unbalanced at times.
Is it primitive? Hell no.
You're the killer. It’s an asymmetrical game.
If that’s your best strat? Go for it.


Is camping and tunneling "unfair"? .. yipp, most of the time.
Can 3 flashlights be unfair? 100%.
Can they lead to messed-up situations? Absolutely.
But are those players toxic because of it?
I really don’t think so.

I dont mind flashys im my lobby as kiler.. Nobody wants every survivor to just gen-rush like it’s a speedrun competition ..
Tunnel the flashlight user. Proxy-camp first hook if you need to. Do what you gotta do — it’s all part of the game.

What I don’t like though, is how you’re framing it as "punishing" them.
Like, you’re treating them as if they’re toxic — or calling them "trolls" right away. Why are this people "toxic" or "trolls" In your eyes? only because of an item?

But it’s just not.
It’s also NOT toxic than you facecamping or tunneling someone out.
Same energy.

There’s plenty of killers that go "ez" in post-game chat just because they beat a "toxic" team.
And plenty of survivors who cry the moment they get camped or tunneled — or act all cocky when they survive against a “mean killer”.

That is what makes DBD’s community toxic.
Not the actual tactics — but the mindset behind it.





...................some stuff can be frustrating.
Going up against a full meta team where everyone knows how to loop? ... that can tilt you. :/
Same way it’s annoying as hell for survivors when the killer goes hard proxy-camp or full tunnel mode.

But people never really ask why they're frustrated. (???)
It’s always just: “This isn’t fair!”
And then the classic afterchat ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ starts — that’s what’s actually toxic.

That’s what makes it all so dramatic. One side dominates, or wins hard, and suddenly it’s all rage and salt.
Just… have fun, even if you’re getting stomped. Doesn’t even make you a worse player. It’s DBD — and DBD just isn’t fair.

As survivor, you’ve got plenty of tools to still stay in the match and pull off some cool plays — even if the killer is playing super efficient and tunneling hard (hello, survivor meta).
And as killer, you’ve got every chance to stay active, get into chases and play smart (hey there, anti-loop & anti-gen meta).

The problem is people’s mindset.
The real toxicity usually comes from the afterchat, not the actual game.

End screen means everything to some people — like their whole ego depends on it.

[[PsI] Operative13]

Originally posted by oecrophy BOT:

Originally posted by A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?:

I totally get you.

For what's worth here's my share of experience:
frrom my 800 to 1100 hours I was struggling as hell, and couldn't do sh!t against SWF or actually good survivor on good surv map like AutoHeaven , MeatPlan etc...
In the last hundred hours I saw myself drastically improve, now I can hold my fair share even against stacks with my Legion.
I now take better decision and I'm not affraid to actual employ "toxic" tactics if that's what I need to do to secure a win. For example: Surv offer AutoHeaven and now I'm on this map ? Alright, I secure one Hook, then camp here and force them to come if they want to unhook. Most of the time I end up with a draw or even 3 kill.
Same goes for SWF that play together, I'm not affraid of slugging, or using "crude" way to win for example I kept two survivor in the wrong part of a loop (= gate was behind me) and kept going left and right to force the BloodLust to ramp up, once i got BloodLust 3 I chased and managed to down them because of my speed boost.
So now I do things like that, and you know what ? I have good result.
As I said I'm no longer losing 99% of my SWF game or "bad map" game, it's more of a 50-50.

I see triple flashlight in Loby ? Lightborn + HaddonField here we go, you asked for it.

However, do I feel happy about this ?
Hell no.
It's "fun" to kill , stomp and punish survivor that wanted to troll me, 100% , I love punishing them and seeing them rage in post-game chat.
But the issue is that it's the majority of game now. So my "Dbd experience" is punishing other.
For real it's not healthy or "fun", it's not a "fun game", it's a "sadistic game", that's way different.
I would love to actually have decent game and decent matchmaking have gg each other, but those are a minority with a majority of toxic survivor and a middle ground of normal player that still use meta perk that are frustrating (yeah sorry but beeing flashed from 90 angle isn't normal, balanced, or fun).

So you're not alone in this.
Personnaly I keep playing because I'm addicted, and I don't have anything else to do in my life, I'm just a lifeless shut in that hop in to have my share of adrenaline, hence why I love playing Legion, the "human like" killer that run everywhere.
But would I advice anyone to do the same or play this game ? Hell no.
This is the most toxic game ever, I'm pretty sure even League of Legend has its toxicity stop at the gate of its game, whereas DbD you have people that come and harass you in your Steam Profile and even take offense if you dare delet their mean coment.

So yeah, my real point of view, my honest real point of view that might get this coment deleted by mods:

This game is just an asylum for degenerate and low-life people. And I'm 100% admiting I fit it in a certain way.
Up to you to accept the pro and cons of playing in an Asylum or just run away to greener square.
There is some great RPG that came out recently...

But... if I may chime in for a sec...

All good, all fine — but:
You camping and tunneling? That’s not toxic.
Sure, it’s unfair sometimes. Sure, it can break even strong teams. But that’s exactly what I was talking about earlier — that’s what brings flavor to the game.

Yeah, it's unbalanced at times.
Is it primitive? Hell no.
You're the killer. It’s an asymmetrical game.
If that’s your best strat? Go for it.


Is camping and tunneling "unfair"? .. yipp, most of the time.
Can 3 flashlights be unfair? 100%.
Can they lead to messed-up situations? Absolutely.
But are those players toxic because of it?
I really don’t think so.

I dont mind flashys im my lobby as kiler.. Nobody wants every survivor to just gen-rush like it’s a speedrun competition ..
Tunnel the flashlight user. Proxy-camp first hook if you need to. Do what you gotta do — it’s all part of the game.

What I don’t like though, is how you’re framing it as "punishing" them.
Like, you’re treating them as if they’re toxic — or calling them "trolls" right away. Why are this people "toxic" or "trolls" In your eyes? only because of an item?

But it’s just not.
It’s also NOT toxic than you facecamping or tunneling someone out.
Same energy.

There’s plenty of killers that go "ez" in post-game chat just because they beat a "toxic" team.
And plenty of survivors who cry the moment they get camped or tunneled — or act all cocky when they survive against a “mean killer”.

That is what makes DBD’s community toxic.
Not the actual tactics — but the mindset behind it.





...................some stuff can be frustrating.
Going up against a full meta team where everyone knows how to loop? ... that can tilt you. :/
Same way it’s annoying as hell for survivors when the killer goes hard proxy-camp or full tunnel mode.

But people never really ask why they're frustrated. (???)
It’s always just: “This isn’t fair!”
And then the classic afterchat ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ starts — that’s what’s actually toxic.

That’s what makes it all so dramatic. One side dominates, or wins hard, and suddenly it’s all rage and salt.
Just… have fun, even if you’re getting stomped. Doesn’t even make you a worse player. It’s DBD — and DBD just isn’t fair.

As survivor, you’ve got plenty of tools to still stay in the match and pull off some cool plays — even if the killer is playing super efficient and tunneling hard (hello, survivor meta).
And as killer, you’ve got every chance to stay active, get into chases and play smart (hey there, anti-loop & anti-gen meta).

The problem is people’s mindset.
The real toxicity usually comes from the afterchat, not the actual game.

End screen means everything to some people — like their whole ego depends on it.

This comes off as you justifying toxic mechanics as what makes the game "fun". You're only looking for the emotional high and not what's sustainable. Sure, one game of flashies. Okay, it's annoying. 10 games of flashies? In a row? Yeah now it's beyond trolling.

I don't have to remind you that it took literal bullying of a dev on a live show to get insta-blind flashlights removed. BHVR definitely knows these mechanics aren't healthy, but yall are eating it up like drugs.

I'm fairly convinced now the community is losing the plot.

[A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?]

Originally posted by oecrophy BOT:

quote

The issue with your arguement is that you don't have the same point of view as others.
Yeah you're right it's "not toxic" and just "using your tools at your advantages", sure.

But the issue is that those tools are frustrating, and for some people, maybe most people, frustrating = toxic.
Just like in a FPS getting Spawn Camped is frustrating and therefore a toxic behavior, but still if the game allow it then it should be okey.
Well in DbD having 3 flashlight ready to blind you, preventing you to take any survivor is just frustrating. Having the killer that doesn't put you on a hook and let you on the ground incapable of doing anyting or use anyperk is frustrating. Having someone that tunnel you because you're not the best of the group is frustrating. And so on...

So the real issue is that because of the lack of proper matchmaking, and the asymetrical nature of game (just as you described it in your post) , people need to employ frustrating tactics
Therefore the game is frustrating, as you said it, it is unfair.
And how people react in face of unfairness ? They go mad. So they call this toxic.

Maybe the real issue is the nature of the game itself, the asymetrical part make it so it's very hard almost impossible to make the game fair and not frustrating, which is also why DBD is the only one that survived where all the other that tried to do Asym. game just got destroyed and are forgoten to this day.
Maybe that's it. For real.

But that doesn't change the fact of the matter, the feeling when playing is that it is frustrating to lose because you're facing unfair way of wining, no matter the side, which constantly make it appear that you lost not because of your mistake, but because of some goofy thing the game allow.

And here again, how do you think the majority of people react when they lose because of things outside of their power ?

Maybe you're right and people shouldn't take it seriously, shouldn't go so tryhard in this, but as long as the dev will push this narative and keep giving perks and meta that make the game more and more adrenaline focus and this aura of competitivness, things wont change.

Yeah. I have way more fun in Blood Game Mode where I just double hook but kill nobody just to "farm" for fun, or better yet: I have more fun in the RNG mode where I don't have to face 4 endurence perk with 4 double health bar + flashlight with hindered and gen popin in 20sec.
It feel way more fair, way more fun, way more paced and actually relying on good decision making rather than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that require one button press to punish the other side.
(plus having perk changing each game mean that I have to think and adapt my playstyle to capitalize on what the game gave me, instead of playing the same meta over and over)

Hey. Make a no-perk mode with tools limited to 1 addon only. THat might be actually funnier than the constant PainRez DeciStrike Surge BlastMine.

[oecrophy [BOT]]

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

Originally posted by oecrophy BOT:

But... if I may chime in for a sec...

All good, all fine — but:
You camping and tunneling? That’s not toxic.
Sure, it’s unfair sometimes. Sure, it can break even strong teams. But that’s exactly what I was talking about earlier — that’s what brings flavor to the game.

Yeah, it's unbalanced at times.
Is it primitive? Hell no.
You're the killer. It’s an asymmetrical game.
If that’s your best strat? Go for it.


Is camping and tunneling "unfair"? .. yipp, most of the time.
Can 3 flashlights be unfair? 100%.
Can they lead to messed-up situations? Absolutely.
But are those players toxic because of it?
I really don’t think so.

I dont mind flashys im my lobby as kiler.. Nobody wants every survivor to just gen-rush like it’s a speedrun competition ..
Tunnel the flashlight user. Proxy-camp first hook if you need to. Do what you gotta do — it’s all part of the game.

What I don’t like though, is how you’re framing it as "punishing" them.
Like, you’re treating them as if they’re toxic — or calling them "trolls" right away. Why are this people "toxic" or "trolls" In your eyes? only because of an item?

But it’s just not.
It’s also NOT toxic than you facecamping or tunneling someone out.
Same energy.

There’s plenty of killers that go "ez" in post-game chat just because they beat a "toxic" team.
And plenty of survivors who cry the moment they get camped or tunneled — or act all cocky when they survive against a “mean killer”.

That is what makes DBD’s community toxic.
Not the actual tactics — but the mindset behind it.





...................some stuff can be frustrating.
Going up against a full meta team where everyone knows how to loop? ... that can tilt you. :/
Same way it’s annoying as hell for survivors when the killer goes hard proxy-camp or full tunnel mode.

But people never really ask why they're frustrated. (???)
It’s always just: “This isn’t fair!”
And then the classic afterchat ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ starts — that’s what’s actually toxic.

That’s what makes it all so dramatic. One side dominates, or wins hard, and suddenly it’s all rage and salt.
Just… have fun, even if you’re getting stomped. Doesn’t even make you a worse player. It’s DBD — and DBD just isn’t fair.

As survivor, you’ve got plenty of tools to still stay in the match and pull off some cool plays — even if the killer is playing super efficient and tunneling hard (hello, survivor meta).
And as killer, you’ve got every chance to stay active, get into chases and play smart (hey there, anti-loop & anti-gen meta).

The problem is people’s mindset.
The real toxicity usually comes from the afterchat, not the actual game.

End screen means everything to some people — like their whole ego depends on it.

This comes off as you justifying toxic mechanics as what makes the game "fun". You're only looking for the emotional high and not what's sustainable. Sure, one game of flashies. Okay, it's annoying. 10 games of flashies? In a row? Yeah now it's beyond trolling.

I don't have to remind you that it took literal bullying of a dev on a live show to get insta-blind flashlights removed. BHVR definitely knows these mechanics aren't healthy, but yall are eating it up like drugs.

I'm fairly convinced now the community is losing the plot.

Did you even play back then?
The old insta-flashlights were nothing like what we have today. Seriously, not even close.

That stuff was as dumb as the old infinites on Haddonfield or those busted windows before they added breakable walls — or now the open doors.
I totally agree with you: that wasn’t good for the game at all. Same with the old tiles where you could literally see the Killer’s light through walls if you played on low settings.
Or the old shack.. everywhere holes, where you can see what the killer is doing..

And don’t even get me started on old insta-brand-new-parts.


Butt..
You really can't compare that to DBD in 2025 anymore.

If you want a more recent example — look at Flashbangs.
they’ve been super buggy too: sometimes no sound, sometimes survivors would escape even when you're staring full-on into a wall.
or... the classic flashbang-into-animation abuse.
That kind of stuff has no place in the game — no debate there.

The old "flashlight into locker safe" was dump , too...


Against flashys nowdays? yipp.. somethere there are situations where you literally can’t pick someone up if there’s 2-3 flashies around. Especially when it’s a SWF and they planned it — they go down in just the right spot, on purpose, and it’s basically impossible for this moment.
but.. killers these days have enough tools to get value out of the situation and still make some plays, even if you are not a nurse and you’re not playing a killer who can not actually insta snowball off of that... some things are just luck, a gamble, 50/50. But that goes for both sides.

[[PsI] Operative13]

Originally posted by oecrophy BOT:

Originally posted by PsI Operative13:

This comes off as you justifying toxic mechanics as what makes the game "fun". You're only looking for the emotional high and not what's sustainable. Sure, one game of flashies. Okay, it's annoying. 10 games of flashies? In a row? Yeah now it's beyond trolling.

I don't have to remind you that it took literal bullying of a dev on a live show to get insta-blind flashlights removed. BHVR definitely knows these mechanics aren't healthy, but yall are eating it up like drugs.

I'm fairly convinced now the community is losing the plot.

Did you even play back then?
The old insta-flashlights were nothing like what we have today. Seriously, not even close.

That stuff was as dumb as the old infinites on Haddonfield or those busted windows before they added breakable walls — or now the open doors.
I totally agree with you: that wasn’t good for the game at all. Same with the old tiles where you could literally see the Killer’s light through walls if you played on low settings.
Or the old shack.. everywhere holes, where you can see what the killer is doing..

And don’t even get me started on old insta-brand-new-parts.


Butt..
You really can't compare that to DBD in 2025 anymore.

If you want a more recent example — look at Flashbangs.
they’ve been super buggy too: sometimes no sound, sometimes survivors would escape even when you're staring full-on into a wall.
or... the classic flashbang-into-animation abuse.
That kind of stuff has no place in the game — no debate there.

The old "flashlight into locker safe" was dump , too...


Against flashys nowdays? yipp.. somethere there are situations where you literally can’t pick someone up if there’s 2-3 flashies around. Especially when it’s a SWF and they planned it — they go down in just the right spot, on purpose, and it’s basically impossible for this moment.
but.. killers these days have enough tools to get value out of the situation and still make some plays, even if you are not a nurse and you’re not playing a killer who can not actually insta snowball off of that... some things are just luck, a gamble, 50/50. But that goes for both sides.

Just because something is "Better" does not make it "Good". They are not the same thing. Just like treating cancer and having no cancer is not the same thing. Just because your cancer is "not as bad as before" doesn't mean the cancer is not still killing you.

It's been years. I've been clinging on for too long just like you, seeing the changes and hoping things will get better. Well, I realize now it's not good enough. Sometimes you have to let your passions die.

I'm tired boss.

[oecrophy [BOT]]

Originally posted by A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?:

Originally posted by oecrophy BOT:

quote

The issue with your arguement is that you don't have the same point of view as others.
Yeah you're right it's "not toxic" and just "using your tools at your advantages", sure.

But the issue is that those tools are frustrating, and for some people, maybe most people, frustrating = toxic.
Just like in a FPS getting Spawn Camped is frustrating and therefore a toxic behavior, but still if the game allow it then it should be okey.
Well in DbD having 3 flashlight ready to blind you, preventing you to take any survivor is just frustrating. Having the killer that doesn't put you on a hook and let you on the ground incapable of doing anyting or use anyperk is frustrating. Having someone that tunnel you because you're not the best of the group is frustrating. And so on...

So the real issue is that because of the lack of proper matchmaking, and the asymetrical nature of game (just as you described it in your post) , people need to employ frustrating tactics
Therefore the game is frustrating, as you said it, it is unfair.
And how people react in face of unfairness ? They go mad. So they call this toxic.

Maybe the real issue is the nature of the game itself, the asymetrical part make it so it's very hard almost impossible to make the game fair and not frustrating, which is also why DBD is the only one that survived where all the other that tried to do Asym. game just got destroyed and are forgoten to this day.
Maybe that's it. For real.

But that doesn't change the fact of the matter, the feeling when playing is that it is frustrating to lose because you're facing unfair way of wining, no matter the side, which constantly make it appear that you lost not because of your mistake, but because of some goofy thing the game allow.

And here again, how do you think the majority of people react when they lose because of things outside of their power ?

Maybe you're right and people shouldn't take it seriously, shouldn't go so tryhard in this, but as long as the dev will push this narative and keep giving perks and meta that make the game more and more adrenaline focus and this aura of competitivness, things wont change.

Yeah. I have way more fun in Blood Game Mode where I just double hook but kill nobody just to "farm" for fun, or better yet: I have more fun in the RNG mode where I don't have to face 4 endurence perk with 4 double health bar + flashlight with hindered and gen popin in 20sec.
It feel way more fair, way more fun, way more paced and actually relying on good decision making rather than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that require one button press to punish the other side.
(plus having perk changing each game mean that I have to think and adapt my playstyle to capitalize on what the game gave me, instead of playing the same meta over and over)

Hey. Make a no-perk mode with tools limited to 1 addon only. THat might be actually funnier than the constant PainRez DeciStrike Surge BlastMine.

I get your point,... I play both sides too. But honestly, when I’m playing as a killer and I’ve got 3 flashlights, background players, and all that stuff, I still have the option to slug. Slugging is still really strong, even with all the nonsense in the game. And with a lot of groups, there are many killers who can still slug but end up in a situation where there’s absolutely nothing you can do. :/ That’s when things get really frustrating. But the problem here isn’t the interaction between the killer and survivors, or the “flashlight” item.

I don’t see the problem with having three flashlights around the killer (and if there are really three, then only one person’s on the gen anyway, which you have to keep in mind). The real issue is when a specific killer can’t use the situation to apply pressure. (And this affects a lot of M1 killers... like Ghostface getting constantly broken out of his ability by 2-3 people in a situation like that, or Trapper doing nothing in that case, etc.) This is why we barely see certain killers. But the problem isn’t the item, it’s that some killers are just way too weak.

I wouldn’t say that’s a good reason to completely scrap an item or call it “toxic” just because people are using it. A lot of killers really need serious buffs, but that’s a whole different issue, influenced a lot by this whole “mimi... everything has to be fair” mindset from surv -side.

[oecrophy [BOT]]

Just because something is "Better" does not make it "Good". They are not the same thing. Just like treating cancer and having no cancer is not the same thing. Just because your cancer is "not as bad as before" doesn't mean the cancer is not still killing you.

It's been years. I've been clinging on for too long just like you, seeing the changes and hoping things will get better. Well, I realize now it's not good enough. Sometimes you have to let your passions die.

I'm tired boss.

uhm,... honestly, I’m wondering what you really want... do you want everyone on the team laser-focused on gens, chases getting even shorter, and everyone else just as efficient as possible, pushing the gens, trying to escape as fast as they can in the end? Is that really what you want?

This "bully match" example from monseir Coté with his hag is outdated..

There are killers that still have issues and definitely need buffs, but the rest is more of an bad MMR problem when ppl feel "bullied" nowadays. rounds like "back in the day" don’t even happen anymore, even with the weak killers. If this does happen.. it's more likely .. the bad MMR's fault.. and the "kill/escape" is your win stuff whats the acual mmr is about...

sure, some of the devs are pretty bad at their game... xD and they’d still feel "bad" today if they came across a good group.




/edit: (to clarify) when I say that DBD creates exciting and intense moments through its asymmetrical nature — even through “unfair” situations — I’m specifically talking about the stuff that happens within a match. That doesn’t mean I’m saying: “You play Killer X and it’s 100% guaranteed you lose against a decent group unless they mess up,” or “You tunnel with Killer Y and you’ll always get a 4K no matter how hard the survivors try.” Or: “You bring this perk/add-on combo and it’s predetermined that the other side has no chance.”

Nobody wants a match that’s doomed from the start.

Same goes for survivors — if you bring the best items, an eerie offering, the strongest setup, and it’s still guaranteed to be a 4-man escape just because the killer picked the wrong one, that’s not okay either. Stuff like that needs to be acknowledged, put on the table, and rebalanced.

That said, I actually think DBD is in a pretty good spot right now. Nothing really comes to mind that feels completely off in that regard — and that’s not even the point here.

I just think it’s totally fine when wild, sometimes “unfair” moments happen during the match — like when one side is totally dominating and the other suddenly turns it around. Those moments are what make the game thrilling.

[Pyramid Head's Meat Socket]

Originally posted by A̵̡͆ ̷͝Ĺ̷̺ ȋ̶v ?:

"DBD is Fundamentally Broken by Design"

I mean they made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ perk that give you haste for Vaulting a window.
If anything, this should pinpoint about how absurd the game has become and how much they want to help the survivor xD

Makes more sense than opening an empty locker and seeing everyone through walls, blinding them and forcing them to scream but idk