Ghoul & Survivor. General Discussion.

[MILKBOY]

No rage bait here – genuinely curious what you all think.

So, I mostly play survivor, and I’ve found that the best way to enjoy DBD is to not fall into the usual rage spiral of “killer OP!!” or “devs hate survivors!!” etc. I try to keep it light and focus on making chases fun – win or lose – for both sides.

That said, I wanted to talk about the new killer. I think he’s neat – definitely weird and kind of random, but hey, something new and unexpected is always welcome. Naturally, I’ve been seeing him in pretty much 100% of my matches since the DLC dropped. Not a shocker.

Early on, I had a blast going against him. Everyone was figuring him out, there were some funny, chaotic moments, and it felt fresh. Eventually I decided to try playing him myself to see how he moves and feels, and yeah – it’s fun. His movement is actually really satisfying.

Now, here’s my one (and only) real critique: his “free damage” ability – you know the one – feels really strong. I know, I know, “skill issue,” but come on. I’m not saying delete it or anything, just maybe tweak it a little? Either make it slightly harder to land or reduce the hitbox/distance. I’ve been hit from what felt like a football field away and it just kills the vibe a bit when it happens over and over.

Full disclaimer: I know Steam discussions aren’t exactly known for quality takes. Some posts on here are straight-up comedy gold with how wild they get. But I do think there are real, worthwhile opinions buried in here, so I wanted to hear what others honestly think.

Do you guys feel the same way? Is it just a learning curve thing or does that ability need a little adjustment?

[Persica]

I have played against him quite a bit but not as him.

Yeah the "free damage" is clunky, works from super far and has to be reworked imo. I would like to not have the stun animation for the survivor and making the killer work for it a bit more for it somehow, requiring to commit instead of injuring for free anyone on sight giving incentive for players to heal because right now healing is basically useless (needs collective 32 seconds to heal 16 on 2 survivors and injure you in 5 seconds and can interrupt you ??).

His chase potential seems incredibly high (even higher than most believe I think). The distance you make after he leaps on you is so short I was flabbergasted on how I didn't even make a single lap around a short loop if he played his cards correctly (like the little rectangular truck with a pallet while I was on the opposite side), I was surprised how many common tiles have to be played "weirdly" against a good kaneki especially in enraged mode which is pretty much always and how many small tiles are actually unsafe.

His ability to bodyblock loop with large leap and going in front of you is also insane and has a lot of fun potential for both sides. I believe as is if done correctly by the killer has basically 0 survivor counterplay since they don't have the time to reach anything once bodyblock even with prediction double back and have no way except in an almost straight line situation to bodyblock the kaneki leaps trying to bodyblock the loop (and even then most of the time he can leap around you to avoid your bodyblock even in an almost straight line scenario). If the survivor could in most situation bodyblock his leap bodyblock by pathing weirdly it would be very fun.

I guess a more realistic thing you could do is engineer a balance like "I leap 2 times and now I could bodyblock your loop" and the survivor is like "but if I predict your bodyblock and double back right now before your bodyblock leap I reach the loop back the other way" and the killer will be like "but if predict your double back right now I could actually leap in the middle of the loop closer to you're double back and you're cooked", it also sounds fun. Granted for that, you will need to change the leaps mechanics and timing to make it less forgiving while still being fun for killer which I don't believe BHVR is capable of delivering in a reasonable time frame.
I think giving incentive to leap more precisely to bodyblock is way more interesting than the current leaping around loop on top of you cancel and M1 or bodyblock the pallet and now you don't reach anything no matter what.

A weird but fun idea I have would be to make his leap driftable like a compass based on where he grabs if he chooses to with camera direction and ZSQD at the same time or something, so he has the ability to drift wide to drift around the loop all the way to bodyblock the pallet or drift to the middle of the loop predicting your doubleback then cancelling and hitting you with great precision. And you only give him 2 leaps and find another buff for enraged mode.
I would pay to see this killer drift around chaotically, it would be hilarious XD
Do I believe BHVR is capable of coding something like that ? You know, I know it, everybody knows it, shame haha

Also the fact that transitioning against him in any capacity being a death sentence without any counter play seems bad design to me. I mean killer are happy that holding W is not a thing against him which is fair I also like the idea of a tight M1 looping killer and a M1 killer with leaps plays on "bigger" loops.
But we already have killers punishing bad transitioning and they are not guaranteed, at least blight you can play a mindgame / reaction time behind an object to make him whiff / crouch tech. With billy you can still crouch tech and run around objects and well, he still has to chainsaw you which is easier said than done... It's not over yet on both side.
He however, is basically 100% guaranteed hit if the transition is a bit too long, leap on you, M1 you and your dead since your already injured. Not that interactive and low effort imo I would rather have another step required for the killer to punish transitioning that gives a chance for survivors to avoid the damage and not a guarantee, not a 50/50, I mean against a good blight it's not a 50/50 but at least something.

They should also tone down A LOT the vault speed in enraged mode, not making it useless but the fact that you barely reach anything... Waiting for the survivor to drop a pallet, vaulting behind and getting a free hit is like 0 interaction stuff. When he leaps 2-3 times to bodyblock your loop, very interactive, me likey, killer spiderman.
Even without that vault ability, his anti-loop is still really strong if played correctly. And right now you have fast breaking pallet kaneki so there are 2 ways to be brain dead anyway.

A counterplay I imagined against that is a pallet standoff kind of like against the houndmaster dog but the only time I tried I got M1, maybe I am not reading the animations correctly or I am missing something...

But honestly what bothers me the most is his sheer mobility. Now sure, the ability to be on anyone @ss constantly on most map in a matter of 5 seconds is an overpowered ability for the reasons down below. You can give killers spiderman enjoyment without being able to be on top of any survivors in 5 seconds.

Right now everyone being injured since there's no reason to heal is a big problem with the rest of his kit as is.
He has an insane if not the best mobility on open maps, so really if he wants to, he sees you transitioning from the other side of the map while in an active chase and boom on top of you and you're dead, some people seems to fail to recognize it not only punish holding W without counterplay, but also punish super hard doing gens on dead zone where the only pallet at reasonable distance has been dropped and transitioning without being close to a resource you can use. I haven't encountered a kaneki trying to hold a 3 gen but can you imagine playing against a kaneki in Dead Dawg holding the Gallows and playing the long game ? I mean with Kaneki on some maps any 3 gens is holdable haha.

It's unbelievable how early I had to sprint burst even though he was on the other side of map in a chase knowing if he wanted to he could leap on me and I would be most likely dead since the dead zone is quite large. This passive deterence is often basically an additional regression perk, him starting to look in your direction is often already an indication that it's time to let go of the gen and get out if you're in a dead zone. Fortunately killers are not doing that but they could fake going to a survivor in a dead zone to force him to waste a lot of time prerunning and actually go to someone else. Blight is the same ? Not really, it's nowhere close to kaneki and also normal objects are playable although not as safe as a pallet and you're also not a single hit from being down. Again leap on top of you, m1, dead.
And again, would be less of a problem if incentive to heal because I wouldn't be in immediate danger so he would have to first injure me.

His mobility also makes mostly inconsequential bad chases. Most killers even blight if you're juicing them and they want to change targets has to pay a price which is the time to reach another survivor which also gives the opportunity for the second survivor to get to a safer area. On some maps he can travel almost the entire map in 5 seconds so you hardly punish the killer with your juicer skill (and also prerun any significant distance if you're the next target to reach anything). I had a lot of kaneki the second I loop them longer than 20 seconds will just change target for free.
I mean why wouldn't he do that ? The guy is looping me potentially for a bit too long. I can pressure someone out of a gen with no downtime that may potentially be in a worse area / dead zone or worse in looping in general while the first guy has to transition to repair a gen and maybe I have ruin so the gen I disturbed gets regressed. No consequences for the killer to change target and doesn't have to commit to anything.

I don't know why some people argue he is way weaker than he is because his anti-loop is not as strong or something. The fact that right now he has no traveling time more than makes up for it. He can basically constantly be chasing someone, decide to return to the hook to tunnel instantly, keep everyone injured by doing nothing, denying dead hard, off the records, he can easily afford to get longer chases than blight with how mobile he is, has a passive deterrence for survivors repairing in dead zones. Like what are we talking about here ?

In my experience, he sometimes feel like the braindead 0 attention span type of killer comparable to hit and run wraith. Not committing to any chase and eventually you would get rid of all pallets and it works because eventually no resources around gens or catching someone out of position and dead. And when the kaneki is playing like that with ruin and thrill the hunt it really feels miserable (brutal and fire up), even blight can't do it to this extent on open maps (and not everyone is not constantly exposed and you don't have to prerun that early), and you don't have to prerun as much and also you are not one hit away of being dead.

I believe even if there was incentive for survivors to heal and play the long game he will still be at least top A tier on most maps simply by the fact that well, healing takes survivors time, and his attack is actually an M1. Could you imagine blight or nurse if they could use friends till the end (I mean right now kinda is for free since no one heals), or neod (also free haha) ? Unbelievable. Not comparable because chase not as good as blight or nurse ? Well the most powerful tool for survivor is prerun and initial distance (holding W) but you negate that entirely because you're instantly right behind them and you can outplay a lot of loops with your leaps and your enraged vault speed ? yeah idk man maybe it is comparable.

TLDR : Less free and requires committing but still quite accessible injury that makes reseting valuable. After you transition after playing and greeding the set of tiles available, there is still a possible play meaning transition is not a guaranteed death. You juicing the killer, actually matters because he can't change target for free instantly and people are not injured by default since they reset. A killer that can outplay traditional pathing of a lot of loops by leaping wide and bodyblocking you with meaningful counter play / mindgame (or the whole drift leaps my dream 🤩). Seems pretty fun 1v1 material to me and everyone is happy and you don't need to completely rework his kit.

Killers still gets to play spiderman, survivors have meaningful counterplay and actually also have fun because right now it feels like "hunters monopolizing all the fun while survivors suffer let's be honest". I actually think the spiderman thingy is a neat idea.

PS: I am new in this forum and I didn't want to interact with BHVR official forums because some people were so brainrotted (Like people arguing that shoulder the burden is garbage tier like ?????) and I already had a steam account so we'll see.

[Izalith]

Killer here 97% of the time and noob survivor, For killer it's fun, the first hit it's free, basically a legion, have 2 methods to play, hit and run or full chase a single survivor, the "OP" it's here in this part, the second hit, as only i play killer for me it's dificult in long tiles or shack, because turn in M1killer, a lot people run away from me full W, here it's very easy to slide and cancel the power, but in loops and shack basically im an M1 killer and lose a lot time for the second hit against good survivors, a little tip for survivors with the second chase for the slide cancel of the ghoul, play a little as if the killer it's a nurse in Full W, predict, the Ghoul will try to leap in front of you and cut the road, do a 180º and return, and the ghoul will jump far away, it's little mind game like a Nurse when she gona teleport and you do a 180º and return and nurse go far from you.

[Persica]

I am actually waiting to see how the comp players are going to play him. I know the v1v4 hosted by V1rtual_Reality on Twitch with DBDLeague ruleset and probably the next season X of DBDLeague are upcoming tournaments featuring major teams with kaneki sets.
Of course they have special rulesets so not directly comparable to pubs and no limits but still very interesting if they will find some 5 heads way to counter him.

In the meantime, there are already comp scrims with kaneki (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2423954146) and welp, the survivors roasters are pretty much getting 4K every single game, sure there are comp rules but still in those said rules it seems comparable to blight.
Can be interesting to see what the most optimal SWF are currently trying to do to play against him.

[Persica]

Escrito originalmente por Izalith:

Killer here 97% of the time and noob survivor, For killer it's fun, the first hit it's free, basically a legion, have 2 methods to play, hit and run or full chase a single survivor, the "OP" it's here in this part, the second hit, as only i play killer for me it's dificult in long tiles or shack, because turn in M1killer, a lot people run away from me full W, here it's very easy to slide and cancel the power, but in loops and shack basically im an M1 killer and lose a lot time for the second hit against good survivors, a little tip for survivors with the second chase for the slide cancel of the ghoul, play a little as if the killer it's a nurse in Full W, predict, the Ghoul will try to leap in front of you and cut the road, do a 180º and return, and the ghoul will jump far away, it's little mind game like a Nurse when she gona teleport and you do a 180º and return and nurse go far from you.

I mean it could work if he tries to cut you off. But I feel like right now his cancel animation is so short in a lot of situation he just has to leap behind you and he has no risk of going past you since you bodyblock naturally his path no ?

I also feel like nurse is more predictable and easier for such a double back since it's a straight line, only 2 blinks, has to blink again and / or hit in a short timeframe, and you can easily count how close is her blink to double back if you play nurse or pinhead yourself.

I have rarely encountered a reliable counterplay involving doubling back that happens often enough. Can you give more details ? Maybe you're saying faking transitioning in a direction breaking LOS, then doubling back ? I mean maybe it could work but he has three leaps, seems like the ball is more on the killer side idk.

[Father™]

I uninstalled after playing like an hour lmao

[You're Doing Great Today!]

Camp and tunneling are far more powerful than any killer bhvr has released. Always someone bullied out withing the first couple of minutes.

[Persica]

Escrito originalmente por Shart™:

I uninstalled after playing like an hour lmao

The only good answer, quitting DBD and get a successful life. 🗿

[RE4everMK]

I'm aware I have not enough experience into the game, since I played over 200 hours 7 years ago.

All I know is I dislike playing vs Ghoul. I've not felt so powerless against any other killer, but Nurse. It's not fun when you get hit and have the killer right on top of you 5 seconds later.

Actually, I recently played a match against Ghostface and thought it looked kinda cute walking around trying to find survivors. I got used to Ghoul moving at super high speed, pressuring every f***ing part of the map.

[Hurricane]

Escrito originalmente por RE4everMK:

I'm aware I have not enough experience into the game, since I played over 200 hours 7 years ago.

All I know is I dislike playing vs Ghoul. I've not felt so powerless against any other killer, but Nurse. It's not fun when you get hit and have the killer right on top of you 5 seconds later.

Actually, I recently played a match against Ghostface and thought it looked kinda cute walking around trying to find survivors. I got used to Ghoul moving at super high speed, pressuring every f***ing part of the map.

Like with any good killer, it's expected to play as him to understand its weaknesses to be able to verse it as survivor.
And if per chance you are decent enough playing a killer, if you win for long enough you'll see how decent survivor wipe the floor with you.
Be it as Nurse or as the Ghoul.

I'm still learning him but he feels like a basic M1 in loops. His power helps for one hit but after that it's a matter of dodging his sling to make him waste time.

[Tokogawa [GER]]

As someone who plays both sides but is more of a Killer Main, he seems OP. Im not sure if he is better then Nurse and Blight but he is for sure FAR more buggy and easy, which makes him the current Nr.1 Killer.

I wouldnt directly call for the Nerfhammer but they desperatly need to fix his Hitboxes and Bugs, and then Nerf him where needed.
Until then I would probably increase the Power Buildup and make it start on Cooldown at the Start.
Since he is supposed to be great at injuring they should instead make looping him easier and that would include nerfing his Recovery Time when exiting a Dash. This is Hillbillys Rework all over, they made the same Mistake there where Hillbillys used their Power to get right next to you (so they missed the Oneshot) but still got the M1 easily. This was nerfed later. Ghoul needs the same Treatment
Other then that I think he is fine. Fix the buggy Bites, nerf his M1 being near instant after dash-missing you and then look if he needs more work then.

[Girth Control]

100% agree. It seriously ruined playing survivor for me. Getting hit with something that A) stops your momentum and B) takes literally no skill to hit, is just incredibly unfair and negates the already minimal gameplay there is while in chase. Getting hit from something that is literally unavoidable feels so much worse than getting hit when you were outplayed. There is literally no gameplay element for survivor and every round is a stomp because of it. I really think if they just made it take an ounce of skill to pull off and reduce the range (literally by half) it would balance him out fairly. Cause right now survivor is just straight misery.