why you shouldnt play killer/why survivors are OP (with proofs and numbers)

[愚かなジャガイモ]

a while ago, i was curious about otz's killer challenge, what will the numbers be if he was facing a bunch of competitive swf, and what will those number looks like. of course, we will never know for now. maybe in the future he will do it, who knows.

but i just watched a "hardcore dead by daylight" series of survivors game consist of youtubers otztarva, dowsey, the JRM, and ayrun. they have some really interesting numbers in the end, so i decided to do some simple calculation compare to otz's killer challenge.

solo queue survivors's circumstances are not being taken in as consideration because that is not how most swf or competitive swf plays.

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in those games, they were trying to get from rank 20 to rank 1 without dying. here are some rules:
- they are not allow to bring item into the games
- if a survivor dies, that character and his/her teachable perk cannot be used again by any of the player.

in the end, they played 89 games, 23/27 survivors died (mikaela and jonah werent in game yet).

meaning out of 89 games, which means 356 lifes, 23 died, which means roughly 93.5% of surviving rate.

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in otz's killer challenge:
with offering and perks,
sweaty: he average at 3.85 kills which also means 96% kill rate.
nice guy: he average at 3.65 kills which also means 91% kill rate.

with no offering and perks, he average at 3.15 kills -> 78% kill rate.

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if you watched the "hardcore dead by daylight" series, you will notice most of the time they are goofing alot, laughing alot, when most of them are not using item nor meta perk most of the time, and in some of the games they only have 1 odd perks, they still get 93.5% surviving rate. and they are not even playing competitively, try hard or sweaty too.


on the other hand, otz was frustrated alot in his killer challenge, sweaty perks, sweaty offering, play dirty, play sweaty, and he barely gets 3% more kills rate than survivors when he sweat the most. and the other 2 numbers are much worse than survivors'.

personally i would use the number of ((96+78)/2) = 87%, for otz's overall killer's kill rate, but for the sake of proving my point, i will just use 96%

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so the question here is, why would you play killer when you stress out most of your game, try hard, and still get worse outcome than swf? why not just play swf? 😂

[76561199102488805]

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKjAiWIb05w
If killers able to play with these results against tryhards that breathe this game how do you think solo queue suffers?

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

solo queue survivors's circumstances are not being taken in as consideration because that is not how most swf or competitive swf plays.

as we all know, im talking about swf here, which floods the higher skill lobbies.

the game is extremely unbalance, as we all know too. so im just taking only the circumstances where BOTH parties are able to perform the most and create the most value out of their roles.

and this video is old, like really old. but i did noticed something. of course, these are no the full numbers from that tournament but rather only from the video.

1st game, wraith, 3 escaped
2nd game, huntress, 1 escaped
3rd game, huntress, 3 escaped
4th game, mike, 0 escaped
5th game, mike, 3 escaped
6th game, doctor, 3 escaped
7th game, doctor, 2 escaped
8th game, huntress, 3 escaped
9th game, huntress, 2 escaped
10th game, clown, 2 escaped
11th game, clown 1 escaped
12th game, pig, 3 escaped

by this numbers, out of 12 games, survivors have 54% escape rate, which is still above 50%. lol

and only 6 of the 14 killers are being picked at that time. which is only 42% killer's pool. tournaments nowadays have even less killers being picked unless they were forced to do so.

meaning that killers are getting harder and harder to play. lol

Killers get more buffs over time. The game was much harder for killer those days.
54% escape rate? Okay but this is 4 man SWF on comms and yet they seem so weak with so much on their side? Do you want to say when you play killer you get to vs teams like this? Are you kidding me? I have over 2k hours in this game already and i can count on my fingers how many times i faced teams like this lol.
There are more viable killers played on tournament and they do fine. Which one you want to see?

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Mr_Purple:

This post is brought to you by... Borisky's alter ego?... Sure looks like it

borisky created his own number, using his own video.
im using numbers from streamers, and their video.

im just calculating out the numbers lol

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

Killers get more buffs over time. The game was much harder for killer those days.
54% escape rate? Okay but this is 4 man SWF on comms and yet they seem so weak with so much on their side? Do you want to say when you play killer you get to vs teams like this? Are you kidding me? I have over 2k hours in this game already and i can count on my fingers how many times i faced teams like this lol.
There are more viable killers played on tournament and they do fine. Which one you want to see?

the game was much harder for killer those days? but why are suvivor's queue time so much more higher in many server during peak hours these days?

any reason why killers queue time is 10 seconds while survivors queue time is 10 minutes in my server during peak hours? since killer is so much more easier to play?

and as i said, i am using otzdarva's as sample.
he himself played as both survivors and killers.
he himself played against non competitive killers and survivors too.

so the opponent is not a concern here.

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

There are more viable killers played on tournament and they do fine. Which one you want to see?

and out of curiosity, i looked at a recent taiwan's tournament that took place last year august. here are the numbers


1st game, oni, 0 escaped
2nd game, blight, 0 escaped

3rd game, spirit, 3 escaped
4th game, huntress, 3 escaped

5th game, freddy, 3 escaped
6th game, spirit, 0 escaped

7th game, oni, 1 escaped
8th game, slinger, 2 escaped

9th game, blight, 0 escaped
10th game, plague, 2 escaped

11th game, hag, 4 escaped
12th game, spirit, 0 escaped

13th game, oni, 1 escaped
14th game, trickster, 4 escaped

15th game, doctor, 3 escaped
16th game, nurse, 3 escaped

17th game, twin, 2 escaped
18th game, huntress, 3 escaped

19th game, spirit, 0 escaped
20th game, oni, 2 escaped

21th game, nurse, 3 escaped
22th game, bubba, 3 escaped

42 escaped out of 88 survivors, meaning 47% escaped rate.

oh, so is survivors actually bad? and survivors is actually underpowered?

actually no, because the rules in this tournament is highest team's blood point, meaning escaping is not the most important objective. (hooking add points, remaining generators add points, escaping add points)

let me explain why, if the team that play killer first are able to get 4 kills, when they are playing as survivor next round, they only need 1 to escape and they will still win no matter what, so teams are actively trying to farm bloodpoint while and maximizing how many kills that can get away with. in case all 4 of them getting killed too.

that's why 47% escaped rate when some of the survivors are not trying to escape but farm blood point is actually very high. lol

[76561199102488805]

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

Първоначално публикувано от Mr_Purple:

This post is brought to you by... Borisky's alter ego?... Sure looks like it

borisky created his own number, using his own video.
im using numbers from streamers, and their video.

im just calculating out the numbers lol

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

Killers get more buffs over time. The game was much harder for killer those days.
54% escape rate? Okay but this is 4 man SWF on comms and yet they seem so weak with so much on their side? Do you want to say when you play killer you get to vs teams like this? Are you kidding me? I have over 2k hours in this game already and i can count on my fingers how many times i faced teams like this lol.
There are more viable killers played on tournament and they do fine. Which one you want to see?

the game was much harder for killer those days? but why are suvivor's queue time so much more higher in many server during peak hours these days?

any reason why killers queue time is 10 seconds while survivors queue time is 10 minutes in my server during peak hours? since killer is so much more easier to play?

and as i said, i am using otzdarva's as sample.
he himself played as both survivors and killers.
he himself played against non competitive killers and survivors too.

so the opponent is not a concern here.

My guess would be that the game looks much more attractive from survivors perspective. Have you played friday 13? No matter how exploitable Jason is everyone want to play Jason rather than play a meat. Difficulty has nothing to do with balance.
I was like "Why use otzdarva when there are comp players out there that already do tournaments?". Otz is new to comp dbd and if you want to discuss balance you should be using high level play in your examples.

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

My guess would be that the game looks much more attractive from survivors perspective. Have you played friday 13? No matter how exploitable Jason is everyone want to play Jason rather than play a meat. Difficulty has nothing to do with balance.

so why are there less people playing killer in dbd? since killer is so much more exploitable from the numbers.

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

I was like "Why use otzdarva when there are comp players out there that already do tournaments?". Otz is new to comp dbd and if you want to discuss balance you should be using high level play in your examples.

as i said, otz being competitive or not, his opponent being competitive or not is not the issue here.

it is the same person that has been playing dbd for 7 thousands hours that consistently plays in high skill lobbies. and he is definitely one of the most knowledgeable all rounder dbd player i know out there.

[Xentos]

Just remember, even if you'd have a whole laboratory, proving this or that.
"Survivor mains" will discredit it all as a bogus. Which ironically enough, is something they also accuse Killers of doing, as in, providing "echo chambers" against something spoken in disfavour of their faction.

[76561199102488805]

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

There are more viable killers played on tournament and they do fine. Which one you want to see?

and out of curiosity, i looked at a recent taiwan's tournament that took place last year august. here are the numbers


1st game, oni, 0 escaped
2nd game, blight, 0 escaped

3rd game, spirit, 3 escaped
4th game, huntress, 3 escaped

5th game, freddy, 3 escaped
6th game, spirit, 0 escaped

7th game, oni, 1 escaped
8th game, slinger, 2 escaped

9th game, blight, 0 escaped
10th game, plague, 2 escaped

11th game, hag, 4 escaped
12th game, spirit, 0 escaped

13th game, oni, 1 escaped
14th game, trickster, 4 escaped

15th game, doctor, 3 escaped
16th game, nurse, 3 escaped

17th game, twin, 2 escaped
18th game, huntress, 3 escaped

19th game, spirit, 0 escaped
20th game, oni, 2 escaped

21th game, nurse, 3 escaped
22th game, bubba, 3 escaped

42 escaped out of 88 survivors, meaning 47% escaped rate.

oh, so is survivors actually bad? and survivors is actually underpowered?

actually no, because the rules in this tournament is highest team's blood point, meaning escaping is not the most important objective.

let me explain why, if the team that play killer first are able to get 4 kills, when they are playing as survivor next round, they only need 1 to escape and they will still win no matter what, so teams are actively trying to farm bloodpoint while and maximizing how many kills that can get away with. in case all 4 of them getting killed too.

that's why 47% escaped rate when some of the survivors are not trying to escape but farm blood point is actually very high. lol

If the goal is to farm bloodpoints why would they even want to escape? 1 escape i can understand but why would 4 want escape?

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Xentos:

Just remember, even if you'd have a whole laboratory, proving this or that.
"Survivor mains" will discredit it all as a bogus. Which ironically enough, is something they also accuse Killers of doing, as in, providing "echo chambers" against something spoken in disfavour of their faction.

welp, i do hope dev integrate something like "after every 4 survivor games, you MUST play at least 1 killer game. throwing game will resulted in a ban"

[76561199102488805]

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

My guess would be that the game looks much more attractive from survivors perspective. Have you played friday 13? No matter how exploitable Jason is everyone want to play Jason rather than play a meat. Difficulty has nothing to do with balance.

so why are there less people playing killer in dbd? since killer is so much more exploitable from the numbers.

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

I was like "Why use otzdarva when there are comp players out there that already do tournaments?". Otz is new to comp dbd and if you want to discuss balance you should be using high level play in your examples.

as i said, otz being competitive or not, his opponent being competitive or not is not the issue here.

it is the same person that has been playing dbd for 7 thousands hours that consistently plays in high skill lobbies. and he is definitely one of the most knowledgeable all rounder dbd player i know out there.

Again if you talk about balance why you want to choose someone popular as an example rather than someone very skillfull ? lol
What are your stats as a killer by the way?

[Xentos]

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

welp, i do hope dev integrate something like "after every 4 survivor games, you MUST play at least 1 killer game. throwing game will resulted in a ban"

I do remember you saying this before.
And I snickered, as some people right off the bat tossed a fit, saying they won't play the game when that happens, since they are playing exclusively as [insert role here].

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

If the goal is to farm bloodpoints why would they even want to escape? 1 escape i can understand but why would 4 want escape?

because if the killer killed 4 in the first game, and in second game when they are playing as survivor, worst case scenario where 4 of them also got killed, it will be up to the highest bloodpoint which team gets. like which team has more generator left will lose more bloodpoint. doing hex totem, not getting hooked will also add blood point and decrease enemy's bloodpoint too.

Първоначално публикувано от ポテト:

(hooking add points, remaining generators add points, escaping add points)

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Xentos:

I do remember you saying this before.
And I snickered, as some people right off the bat tossed a fit, saying they won't play the game when that happens, since they are playing exclusively as [insert role here].

imo, i do think kids need to eat vege, fruits and do a minimum amount of exercise each week lol

too bad things like these are allowed to happen, and their opinion are being taken much more seriously than those who actually have enough experience on both side.

[Kinn Crimson]

The discussion about who is op or too weak will never end as long as they don´t change anything about swf vs playing solo survivor.
There are too many survivors who think killer is strong because they get killed as solo survivor and there are too many killers who think that survivor is op because they face swf in a lot of their matches.
As long as you compare two totally diffenrent things (swf vs killer and solo survivor vs killer) it is impossible to discuss how to balance it.
Just save your own time with posts like this, because it won´t change anything.

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Kinn Crimson:

The discussion about who is op or too weak will never end as long as they don´t change anything about swf vs playing solo survivor.
There are too many survivors who think killer is strong because they get killed as solo survivor and there are too many killers who think that survivor is op because they face swf in a lot of their matches.
As long as you compare two totally diffenrent things (swf vs killer and solo survivor vs killer) it is impossible to discuss how to balance it.
Just save your own time with posts like this, because it won´t change anything.

yep, i do agree solo survivor is the biggest victim here. since simple balancing issue like these should have been prioritized long time ago and be fixed.

but as the topic said, why play killer so much and getting good at the killer just so that you can get crushed by sweaty swf ultimately in where this game's direction is currently going?

not to mention the gameplay experience is not as fun or relaxing as swf either

[愚かなジャガイモ]

Първоначално публикувано от Slayer:

Again if you talk about balance why you want to choose someone popular as an example rather than someone very skillfull ? lol

so you are saying most people out there can do perkless killer, 0 add on and still get 3 kills average?

or are you saying otz's skill is actually below average?

and as i said,
he is playing both as survivors and killers.
he is also playing against NON COMPETITIVE survivors and killers at the same time lol

who he was playing against are from the same pool of players, aka "non competitive" players lol

but his numbers on survivors are still higher than killer's. not to mention in those survivors game, it was a much more fun and chill experience.