is anyone really alright with the current state of both generators and the regression/halting perks ?

[Ohen]

as truth be told, with how much regression and slow down perks have been nerfed, and now with the limit of only 8 regression events before no more, which fun fact, the passive regression and actual damage are counted as two different things, and both count towards that 8 limit, idk it just feels like the game isn't at a healthy point right now

generators can absolutely fly by even with the use of things such as pain res and grim, or any of the regression perks, and it just feels like matches are getting shorter and shorter, and i get that's the point, but idk just feels unsatisfying and boring to just rush rush rush, and again i get that's the point but still, i feel something needs to be done

what do you all think ?

also this is not a rant or anthing like that, its just how i feel, please be civil

[COMP DBD 1V1]

Originally posted by ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat:

Originally posted by funny_bean1v1:

I don't know how to explain it. My point is that DS and OTR are survivor perks and they should help survivors, but instead survivors get punished for finishing their main objective (they lose DS and OTR in the endgame). So if survivors can be punished for finishing their objective to make the endgame slightly more fair for the killer then maybe killers should also be punished for getting their first kill (by disabling pain res and pop) to make 3v1 a little bit more fair for survivors (which would also discourage tunneling as a side effect)?

They dont really punish survivors, when the gates are powered the match is finished with a very high likelyhood of a 4 man escape if they are all alive or a 3 man escape if the killer manages to catch and camp one of them. In end game the base kit endurance off the hook already guarantees an escape, DS and OTR just guaranteed escapes for survivors if they got to endgame (if the killer downs you and you have DS you can crawl out the exit gates and the killer cant do anything about it, same thing with OTR, no matter what they do they cannot down you for 80 seconds, way more time than you need to escape plus you can take protection hits with both of these perks to save survivors that dont have those). It is not a matter of "more fair" its making those two perks no longer work as a win condition (since they are also perks that punish the killer for doing their objective and reward bad survivor plays), Also a 3v1, unlike endgame, is not the end of the match if the survs are good enough they can still finish the gens and get a 2/3 man, maybe those perks should deactivate on a 2v1 since then its basically over for the survivors.

Killers are already punished for 90% of the things they can do in game either with perks or base game stuff, I dont see why survivors should be handheld even more

bro when was the last time you played dbd

ds and otr turn off at endgame..........

[Pogi Bait]

survivor main here:
Gens are powered up by higher echelon players just way too fast. the game either needs to slowdown generator speed even more or add some kind of side objective worth doing other than totems which is worthless. this would remove every killer running pop/pain res ( which is basically mandatory against good squads in the games current state) and we could start to see more variety in killer builds which would be a breath of fresh air.

[Goglinders]

I think the sad reality is the game is just a flawed loop. I think it's absurd to assume killers will tunnel less if gens take more time. This already happened, killers used to take longer to perform every action, survivors used to have longer speed boosts after getting hit, a lot of second chance perks have been nerfed, and gens used to take less time to complete. Even with all the killer buffs that have occurred after the last couple of years, we still have tunneling. People acclimate to the buffs, get sloppier, and simply complain again as they have. Or you know you have a blight player go on 1k+ kill streaks. Something that any balanced game could never allow. That's winning the lottery levels of lucky to win so many games in a row without losing. Which it isn't, it's just that at incredibly high levels of play Blight is insanely consistent at winning. On the flip side, if I say play no-addon Mikey on a pallet happy map against a coordinated swf, I'm going to lose.

The reality is this is a 4v1 game. It will never be balanced. The most we could hope for is the community make its own fun. The devs can't really make this game fun or balanced if we decide to always choose the most unfun ways to play. They have archives that ask killers and survivors to basically throw matches by wasting time or doing "unproductive" things. They have repeatedly stated they don't want this game to be competitive. That people ignore this reality isn't the fault of the devs. No one on this planet can balance this game. Chess is understood to be unbalanced due to first move advantage and it's about as symmetrical as a board game can get. And a truly fair and balanced game like Tic-Tac-Toe ends in a draw every time if both players understand the game well enough, which is a low skill ceiling to attain. That's why the 80s war games film used the game as an example to explain to a super AI that nuclear war always ends in a draw (IE a catastrophic loss for all involved.) This game has random map layouts with maps that are clearly favorable to certain killers, or to survivors over killers, or are just outright terrible for survivors. This game is never going to be balanced.

What I will continue to propose and act out is simply just trying to have fun with the game when I play killer and survivor. Something I see an alarming amount of people on this forum suggesting be punished (IE. I should be booted from a match if I'm not constantly trying to hook people or touching generators.)

Man how great could this game be if the devs focused on trying to create fun ways of play (like they have started to dip their toes in with the lights out event and My little Oni) instead of chasing the impossible task of balancing a game that with every iteration just ends up with some new problem cooked up by the communities desire to suck the fun out of everything because they need to seek validation through winning at a video game. With every update, with the exception of the occasional event or new killer/survivor perks, it is clear that time is dedicated to trying to make maps more "fair" which never works out. Sometimes they are a bit better and sometimes they are a dumpster fire. And the never ending treadmill of killer reworks and occasional perk reworks leading to just a change in meta or the broken state of a killer (at times being too good or laughably bad.) Like for example the new twins update... How much of all this effort could have been spent on making more interesting variations on the game like My little Oni?

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by l-l:

Let's face it. Gen-rushing is the optimal way to play the game. And that's not the survivors fault. It's the fault of the game design.

I'm not so much a fan of regression perks because it frankly incentivizes survivors to finish generators as quickly as possible. And that type of gameplay sort of becomes a habbit in games that don't need to be finished as quickly as possible.

Temporarily disabling generator repair however. Might actually be a good thing, as long as it's potent enough to get survivors to focus on other tasks besides generators. It may lead to more varied gameplay.

You're not wrong, and that kinda sucks.

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by funny_bean1v1:

Originally posted by Ohen:

i unfortunately disagree, if gen time is looked at then perhaps it would be fair, but these perks reward spreading hooks and not tunneling do remember that

Unfortunately you are wrong. These perks reward tunneling more than anything else in the game (maybe except for NOED). Nothing prevents you from tunneling 1 person out of the game and then using pain res and pop to get guaranteed win in 3v1 (let's face it, it's extremely hard to get any gen progress in 3v1 if these 2 perks are used). In fact that's how vast majority of killers play (especially S-tier killers).
Pain res and pop should be disabled in 3v1 just like DS and OTR are disabled once all gens are done. This way they would actually reward killers for not tunneling and wouldn't just be a tool to bully survivors in 3v1.

I don't completely disagree, but I don't completely agree, either. Thing is, idk why I partially disagree, but I feel like them being disabled would in up bad(for perk variety, long term). Again, gut feeling, no actual argument against it.

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by Ohen:

Originally posted by funny_bean1v1:

Unfortunately you are wrong. These perks reward tunneling more than anything else in the game (maybe except for NOED). Nothing prevents you from tunneling 1 person out of the game and then using pain res and pop to get guaranteed win in 3v1 (let's face it, it's extremely hard to get any gen progress in 3v1 if these 2 perks are used). In fact that's how vast majority of killers play (especially S-tier killers).
Pain res and pop should be disabled in 3v1 just like DS and OTR are disabled once all gens are done. This way they would actually reward killers for not tunneling and wouldn't just be a tool to bully survivors in 3v1.

unfortunately, no, while you might have some bad experiences, the perks value comes when you spread the hooks, tunneling is a side effect of two things, one it being a valid strategy due to the speed at which generators go, and two it is unfortunate tunneling is such a valid strategy but until the devs do anything about the gen speed, these things will continue to happen, while i am sorry for your tunnel issues, your view is biased towards negativity

Except that tunneling would still be valid, even if gens went by slower. Though, a compromise, for testing purposes, could be to reduce their effectiveness in a 3v1, instead of deactivating them.

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by Oodanna:

Originally posted by l-l:

Let's face it. Gen-rushing is the optimal way to play the game. And that's not the survivors fault. It's the fault of the game design.

I'm not so much a fan of regression perks because it frankly incentivizes survivors to finish generators as quickly as possible. And that type of gameplay sort of becomes a habbit in games that don't need to be finished as quickly as possible.

Temporarily disabling generator repair however. Might actually be a good thing, as long as it's potent enough to get survivors to focus on other tasks besides generators. It may lead to more varied gameplay.

thats the problem, there are no other tasks, only one person can be chased at a time, taking hits that arent needed is just wasting time, and if nobody is injured, they just sit there twiddling their thumbs and hiding if gens were disabled. until we get another objective, this problem will persist into gen rushing and tunnelling.

if we got a 2nd objective alongside some sort of punishment for tunneling, something like, "if the survivor you place in dying state was the last person hooked (ignored if last person alive), you cannot pick them up for *insert time*" this would create its own issues with decisive, but its an idea at least

Base kit breakdown on double hook would be better, I think. Auto sabos the hook they were hooked on, before, and the one they're hooked on, next, unless it's death hook, since it just gets destroyed.

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by Oodanna:

Originally posted by l-l:

At the moment there is cleansing/booning totems, opening locked chests, mending wounds, and removing killer-specific imposed penalties, saving others from hooks.

That's what I imagine survivors would be doing with their time, but you can tell me if you have something more impactful in mind.

Possibly something that useful and applicable to every game. Maybe opening a portal to certain areas?

im thinking something more impactful, ill use the situation of everyone but the person in chase is healed for this, but everything like totems and chests is completely optional and only for extra points unless the killer is using hex ed builds.

i feel like maybe every 2 generators the rest all "short-circuit" and an objective pops up that survivors need to do in order to continue working on gens, with included measures to stop the killer from just camping it and preventing any possible progress. depending on what it is, it could force survivors to stop hiding and expose themselves in order to complete this objective (itd have to be doable solo, but take longer so that its not impossible to do under different circumstances you encounter). gens could lose half of current progress (not continue regressing but can be kicked) to prevent just 99'ing gens in prep for the short circuit, and then be impossible to work on until the other objective is finished. in order to stop camping it should probably be something similar to pinheads pink addon where you have to be in a radius to see the objective, forcing survivors to actively look around, killer cannot see it, and it moves if the killer blocks it or stays in radius too long.

Simpler solution, put 1 or 2 more of objective than needed, no visual representation of progress, either.

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by funny_bean1v1:

Originally posted by ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat:

I mean they dont have to PREVENT tunneling, they are killer perks and should help the killer. If you tunnel 1 person out of the game you waste lot of time, one use of pain res and 3 pops, if survivors are optimal they will just loop you for long enough to make pain res and pop impact on the game almost non-existant. Plus both of these perks have counterplay unlike all the survivor crutches, which is to prevent hooks and delay them for as much as possible, sabo hooks, flashlight saves, protection hits all buy you waaaaaay more time than you need to fix all the gens even if those perks are used, since without hooks those perks are useless.

Their problem is that these perks work well against bad survivors and dont really work against good survivors or SWF. Since they reward you for hooks that you might be getting rarely if you play against survs that play well. Also tunneling with proxy camping is the best way to play the game as a killer if you want to win, just like how gen rushing without doing totems and chests is the best way to play as surv if you want to win, and devs make it easier and easier to gen rush with every patch, forcing killers to tunnel more and more heavily.

By your logic DS and OTR are killer perks. Good to know.

I legitimately don't understand how you came to this.

[iloveyou]

they should just remove the 8 regression event entirely, right? since yknow the only way to regress a gen is with kicking it ( excluding regression perks! ), so with this 8 kicks only its basically needed to bring a regression perk every game you play

[Soldier Boy]

Originally posted by Ohen:

Originally posted by funny_bean1v1:

IMO gen perks are still too strong. Pain res and pop should be nerfed.

i unfortunately disagree, if gen time is looked at then perhaps it would be fair, but these perks reward spreading hooks and not tunneling do remember that

Just letting you know Pop does not reward for spreading hooks. It benefits from tunneling to keep getting the quick down and punish survivors with a 30% regression of current progress on top of the 5% base and leaves 1 survivor death hook or quickly out of the match which already makes the game 30x harder for the survivors to win even without gen regression it only further benefiting the killer and making it more impossible for a comeback

[ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat]

Originally posted by HOOKED 1ST = GG NEXT:

Originally posted by ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat:

They dont really punish survivors, when the gates are powered the match is finished with a very high likelyhood of a 4 man escape if they are all alive or a 3 man escape if the killer manages to catch and camp one of them. In end game the base kit endurance off the hook already guarantees an escape, DS and OTR just guaranteed escapes for survivors if they got to endgame (if the killer downs you and you have DS you can crawl out the exit gates and the killer cant do anything about it, same thing with OTR, no matter what they do they cannot down you for 80 seconds, way more time than you need to escape plus you can take protection hits with both of these perks to save survivors that dont have those). It is not a matter of "more fair" its making those two perks no longer work as a win condition (since they are also perks that punish the killer for doing their objective and reward bad survivor plays), Also a 3v1, unlike endgame, is not the end of the match if the survs are good enough they can still finish the gens and get a 2/3 man, maybe those perks should deactivate on a 2v1 since then its basically over for the survivors.

Killers are already punished for 90% of the things they can do in game either with perks or base game stuff, I dont see why survivors should be handheld even more

bro when was the last time you played dbd

ds and otr turn off at endgame..........

I know, I explained why they were disabled at endgame, and how they could be abused to get free escapes when they didnt deactivate in endgame

[Jah'Raksha]

Originally posted by l-l:

Let's face it. Gen-rushing is the optimal way to play the game. And that's not the survivors fault. It's the fault of the game design.

I'm not so much a fan of regression perks because it frankly incentivizes survivors to finish generators as quickly as possible. And that type of gameplay sort of becomes a habbit in games that don't need to be finished as quickly as possible.

Temporarily disabling generator repair however. Might actually be a good thing, as long as it's potent enough to get survivors to focus on other tasks besides generators. It may lead to more varied gameplay.

See?
Thats why tunneling exist too, coz its optimal

[ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat]

Originally posted by LittleEtherKitty:

Originally posted by Oodanna:

im thinking something more impactful, ill use the situation of everyone but the person in chase is healed for this, but everything like totems and chests is completely optional and only for extra points unless the killer is using hex ed builds.

i feel like maybe every 2 generators the rest all "short-circuit" and an objective pops up that survivors need to do in order to continue working on gens, with included measures to stop the killer from just camping it and preventing any possible progress. depending on what it is, it could force survivors to stop hiding and expose themselves in order to complete this objective (itd have to be doable solo, but take longer so that its not impossible to do under different circumstances you encounter). gens could lose half of current progress (not continue regressing but can be kicked) to prevent just 99'ing gens in prep for the short circuit, and then be impossible to work on until the other objective is finished. in order to stop camping it should probably be something similar to pinheads pink addon where you have to be in a radius to see the objective, forcing survivors to actively look around, killer cannot see it, and it moves if the killer blocks it or stays in radius too long.

Simpler solution, put 1 or 2 more of objective than needed, no visual representation of progress, either.

I have a different idea, I would divide each generator progress bar in 4 pieces of 25% of progress each. You have to fix the gen normally until you get to 25% (50% or 75%) when you get to that point you can no longer keep working on the gen but you have to find [fuel, generator parts etc] in the map, that would appear in certain chests and would have to be carried in the second item slot (like pinhead box) to the gen and used on it to unlock the next 25% of progress to be done.

Also once you get to each threshold that progress is permanent and the gen cannot be regressed under the 25% (50 or 75%). This would incentivize survivors to actually roam the map looking for parts or fuel, instead of just sitting on gens all game, and it would also reward them for going to different gens, also making it harder to pop 3 gens after the first killer chase, but they would steadily get more progress that the killer cannot regress as the match goes on and on. The killer would also have to roam the entire map to patrol the fuel chests and such, and this would also make it harder to 3 gen since survs have to do just 25% of progress at a time that the killer cant constantly regress even without the 8 regression event limit

[LittleEtherKitty]

Originally posted by ᚠᛂᚿᚱᛁᚱ The Rat:

Originally posted by LittleEtherKitty:

Simpler solution, put 1 or 2 more of objective than needed, no visual representation of progress, either.

I have a different idea, I would divide each generator progress bar in 4 pieces of 25% of progress each. You have to fix the gen normally until you get to 25% (50% or 75%) when you get to that point you can no longer keep working on the gen but you have to find [fuel, generator parts etc] in the map, that would appear in certain chests and would have to be carried in the second item slot (like pinhead box) to the gen and used on it to unlock the next 25% of progress to be done.

Also once you get to each threshold that progress is permanent and the gen cannot be regressed under the 25% (50 or 75%). This would incentivize survivors to actually roam the map looking for parts or fuel, instead of just sitting on gens all game, and it would also reward them for going to different gens, also making it harder to pop 3 gens after the first killer chase, but they would steadily get more progress that the killer cannot regress as the match goes on and on. The killer would also have to roam the entire map to patrol the fuel chests and such, and this would also make it harder to 3 gen since survs have to do just 25% of progress at a time that the killer cant constantly regress even without the 8 regression event limit

The concept isn't bad, but it also doesn't go against my suggestion, either.