pain res and grim are not the cause, but a symptom of a much bigger problem

[Ohen]

yes we all know pain res and grim are the meta right now, but the issue is, they are popular because almost all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak, due to well nerfs, plus the new anti regression mechanic, where gens can now only be effected by regression events 8 times, which fun fact, perks such as pop and pain res, apply 2 instances of that, the initial damage and then the passive regression as if it was kicked

while everyone is quite sick of the two perks, they are unfortunately a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem, if you play without them, you'll be gen rushed, play with them and you'll be called a try hard, i don't know what needs to be done, but something has to be done, as if the devs nerf these two perks, i don't think regression will see use at all, besides jolt and maybe pop, but that'd be it

how does anyone else feel about this ?, as truth be told i am quite worried for the state of the game

[Hidden Sniper]

These perks can be outplayed but survs crying anyway. And at the same time they forget, that survs have perks that killer cant outplay at all

[CEO of Genrush]

IMO gens already take too long. Slowdown perks should be nerfed and base gen repair time should be reduced back to 80 seconds. Currently tunneling = free win, because survivors physically can't do gens fast enough to counter it.
Or they could make DS stun last 30 seconds, so tunneling = guaranteed loss for killer. It would work too and wouldn't require nerf to slowdown perks.

[Bing Bong]

Originally posted by Ohen:

yes we all know pain res and grim are the meta right now, but the issue is, they are popular because almost all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak, due to well nerfs,

Jolt(I guess surge now) and Pop are both completely fine perks, as is pain res. Pain res with only 4 instances, completely fine with it. Grim embroke is probelmatic though, especially with it stacking with DMS. And even if it doesn't, on 4 stacks blocking globally for 40 seconds is a bit laughable in terms of balance.

Seen plenty of people using overcharge... Ruin has made a comeback as well. So I am not sure where you are getting "all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak" from.

Originally posted by Ohen:

plus the new anti regression mechanic,

I dont know, if you are getting 8 regression events on a single gen... and not killing anyone at that point?

I have never managed to get that many events ever on a single gen.

Originally posted by Ohen:

which fun fact, perks such as pop and pain res, apply 2 instances of that, the initial damage and then the passive regression as if it was kicked

Is this true? Need some footage, never ran into this issue myself... but then again I have never had to kick a gen or regress one 8 times ever as killer.

I've kicked with pop on plague before but It's not like I am keeping track of how many times I do it on a single gen. I wanna say its not anymore than maybe 4 or 5 times.

Again need some clarification on this one.

Originally posted by Ohen:

while everyone is quite sick of the two perks, they are unfortunately a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem, if you play without them, you'll be gen rushed

Only have an issue with grim embroke, pain res is fine.

Seen plenty of killer builds without both of these, not just in my games but across several streams of countless hours on other peoples play. So again, not sure where this is coming from.

"gen rushed" as been shown by the community now countless times, is more of a symptom of camping/not spreading pressure ... even AT ALL (hence camping), rather than any perk the killer brings or items/perks the survivors bring. I only run Pop on plague or pain res on legion, but dont stack anything else.

It seems to be a term that just gets thrown out without much behind it unfortunately. And I lose A LOT of sympathy when its coming from killers that have massive movement and anti-loop.

I dont even run into BNP/Wire Spools that often, much less Commodius. I personally just stack these on survivor, never use them either.... I watch streams and hardly ever see anyone stacked with toolboxes/built to last/streetwise/prove thy self/bnp. I barely see endgame screens with a single toolbox in them , not just in my play but several discussion posters here that stream, as well as the content creators at the highest MMR (Hens/Alf/Otz/JRM...)

So I am just not buying it on people throwing out the term "gen rush".

Originally posted by Ohen:

you'll be called a try hard

Eh try hard is really depending on how someone plays and what killer they play. Not really the perk loadout. More about playing some blatantly broken/unfair killer with their best addons than any perk's they want to stack on top of that.

Same goes for survivors in the try hard category though, but again, I just dont see this massive ammount 2-4 people stacked with toolboxes and all gen perks across many players, not just myself. Most SWF's I run into, when you do run into them, dont even run gen stuff or boxes they run flashlights and exhaustion perks, along with adrenaline.

[Ohen]

Originally posted by Jak:

Originally posted by Ohen:

yes we all know pain res and grim are the meta right now, but the issue is, they are popular because almost all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak, due to well nerfs,

Jolt(I guess surge now) and Pop are both completely fine perks, as is pain res. Pain res with only 4 instances, completely fine with it. Grim embroke is probelmatic though, especially with it stacking with DMS. And even if it doesn't, on 4 stacks blocking globally for 40 seconds is a bit laughable in terms of balance.

Seen plenty of people using overcharge... Ruin has made a comeback as well. So I am not sure where you are getting "all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak" from.

Originally posted by Ohen:

plus the new anti regression mechanic,

I dont know, if you are getting 8 regression events on a single gen... and not killing anyone at that point?

I have never managed to get that many events ever on a single gen.

Originally posted by Ohen:

which fun fact, perks such as pop and pain res, apply 2 instances of that, the initial damage and then the passive regression as if it was kicked

Is this true? Need some footage, never ran into this issue myself... but then again I have never had to kick a gen or regress one 8 times ever as killer.

I've kicked with pop on plague before but It's not like I am keeping track of how many times I do it on a single gen. I wanna say its not anymore than maybe 4 or 5 times.

Again need some clarification on this one.

Originally posted by Ohen:

while everyone is quite sick of the two perks, they are unfortunately a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem, if you play without them, you'll be gen rushed

Only have an issue with grim embroke, pain res is fine.

Seen plenty of killer builds without both of these, not just in my games but across several streams of countless hours on other peoples play. So again, not sure where this is coming from.

"gen rushed" as been shown by the community now countless times, is more of a symptom of camping/not spreading pressure ... even AT ALL (hence camping), rather than any perk the killer brings or items/perks the survivors bring. I only run Pop on plague or pain res on legion, but dont stack anything else.

It seems to be a term that just gets thrown out without much behind it unfortunately. And I lose A LOT of sympathy when its coming from killers that have massive movement and anti-loop.

I dont even run into BNP/Wire Spools that often, much less Commodius. I personally just stack these on survivor, never use them either.... I watch streams and hardly ever see anyone stacked with toolboxes/built to last/streetwise/prove thy self/bnp. I barely see endgame screens with a single toolbox in them , not just in my play but several discussion posters here that stream, as well as the content creators at the highest MMR (Hens/Alf/Otz/JRM...)

So I am just not buying it on people throwing out the term "gen rush".

Originally posted by Ohen:

you'll be called a try hard

Eh try hard is really depending on how someone plays and what killer they play. Not really the perk loadout. More about playing some blatantly broken/unfair killer with their best addons than any perk's they want to stack on top of that.

Same goes for survivors in the try hard category though, but again, I just dont see this massive ammount 2-4 people stacked with toolboxes and all gen perks across many players, not just myself. Most SWF's I run into, when you do run into them, dont even run gen stuff or boxes they run flashlights and exhaustion perks, along with adrenaline.

you make many valid points, some even i didn't think of, so i shall bow my head as the fool,

as for the 8 regression limit, i only have my words, a gen once got hit by all four instances of pain res, and became blocked, and i have never kicked said gen ever, leading me to believe % based damage, and passive regression and two different instances of regression

i am just worried for the health and state of the game, as both sides have rather unhealthy things, but i am sadly not at liberty to speak of them, as i'm not too informed on them, have a pleasant day

[Ohen]

Originally posted by Hidden Sniper:

These perks can be outplayed but survs crying anyway. And at the same time they forget, that survs have perks that killer cant outplay at all

an example is head-on, yes i know, but there have been moments i genuinely could not do anything against it except just take the stun, the prompt to open the locker wouldn't appear at all, then you also have flashbangs, which can blind a killer even if your facing and or against a wall

its a sad fact that some killer perks just take too much effort for the effect they give, meanwhile survivor perks require almost no effort yet have very intense effects

[Elikir]

Originally posted by Jak:

Ruin has made a comeback as well. So I am not sure where you are getting "all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak" from.

"comeback" is a bit exagerrated, sure removing the "kill disable it" have this perk going from trash to viable, but let's not forget how hex perks sucks in general, and are kinda terrible compared to other perks which you're gonna be able to use for more than a minute

Originally posted by Ohen:

plus the new anti regression mechanic,
I dont know, if you are getting 8 regression events on a single gen... and not killing anyone at that point?
I have never managed to get that many events ever on a single gen.

Happened to me time to time, mostly because i dominated noobies survivors who ketp repairing the same generator, i think i've got 2 to 3 pain res trigger on that same gen

But yes, i agree with you, limit of 8 regressions isn't that bad, i mean at worst that mean you have 32/40 regression left (8 per gen, and they have to repair 5) and at best, reaching such limit means you're focusing enough on gen slowdown, and while you can't regress it further, survivors STILL gonna repair it, so you know this gen in aprticular gonna be a survivor magnet (could also compare that limit to bloodlust, if you regress same gen 5-6 times, perhaps you should chase more, and if you get bloodlust tier 2, perhaps you should chase someone else)

What preoccupied me though is the fundamental issues this "fix/limit" generate, 3-gen was an issue, alright, but it was mostly made by survivors themselves, meanwhile less than 1% of killer playerbase TRULY did this tactic as their main tool/playstyle, yet its mostly killers who got the short stick there (preventing gen-tapping should have been dealt with since years, and going from 2.5% to 5% mean that kicking gen is relevent even without perks)

Let's explain it in another way : killer going 3-gens as main playstyle and survivors cfrequently create that 3-gen situation are both peoples banging their heads against a wall, hoping it will work in the end

So why killer have to be prevented from getting benefit of a situation survivors create while survivors, rather than getting discouraged to keep doing it.... are helped for doing their insanity?

Instead of creating such limits, they should have just made a better tutorial or just a giant red screen saying the tips : "STOP MAKING 3GENS SITUATION", or even simpler, make the gen aura from "deja vu" basekit, while some peoples could complain, it would create a much smaller problem than limiting gen (and at least killer not getting punished) and if survivor, even with such aura, keep doing the exact same "insanity"? they get punished for it

Originally posted by Ohen:

while everyone is quite sick of the two perks, they are unfortunately a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem, if you play without them, you'll be gen rushed

Gonna agree with Jak here, the word "gen-rushing" is overused, and we forgot its true meaning, if it even had one

sure survivors doesn't constantly bring toolboxes, doesn't pring constantly gen perks
But gen efficiency became much better than last years, meanwhile survivors kept getting more and more option/tools to just "not get downed"
So while gen efficiency alone shouldn't be a problem, having survivors being able to extend chases to the extent of having "one gen repair per down" make the whole thing a problem, and shouldn't happen except in very extreme cases, yet can happens casually in pub matches

I mean its one of the many reasons as to why among the top 5 MOST USED/PICKRATE perks, 4 of them are gen slowdown

[Ohen]

Originally posted by Elikir:

Originally posted by Jak:

Ruin has made a comeback as well. So I am not sure where you are getting "all other forms of regression or stalling are now quite weak" from.

"comeback" is a bit exagerrated, sure removing the "kill disable it" have this perk going from trash to viable, but let's not forget how hex perks sucks in general, and are kinda terrible compared to other perks which you're gonna be able to use for more than a minute

Originally posted by Ohen:

plus the new anti regression mechanic,
I dont know, if you are getting 8 regression events on a single gen... and not killing anyone at that point?
I have never managed to get that many events ever on a single gen.

Happened to me time to time, mostly because i dominated noobies survivors who ketp repairing the same generator, i think i've got 2 to 3 pain res trigger on that same gen

But yes, i agree with you, limit of 8 regressions isn't that bad, i mean at worst that mean you have 32/40 regression left (8 per gen, and they have to repair 5) and at best, reaching such limit means you're focusing enough on gen slowdown, and while you can't regress it further, survivors STILL gonna repair it, so you know this gen in aprticular gonna be a survivor magnet (could also compare that limit to bloodlust, if you regress same gen 5-6 times, perhaps you should chase more, and if you get bloodlust tier 2, perhaps you should chase someone else)

What preoccupied me though is the fundamental issues this "fix/limit" generate, 3-gen was an issue, alright, but it was mostly made by survivors themselves, meanwhile less than 1% of killer playerbase TRULY did this tactic as their main tool/playstyle, yet its mostly killers who got the short stick there (preventing gen-tapping should have been dealt with since years, and going from 2.5% to 5% mean that kicking gen is relevent even without perks)

Let's explain it in another way : killer going 3-gens as main playstyle and survivors cfrequently create that 3-gen situation are both peoples banging their heads against a wall, hoping it will work in the end

So why killer have to be prevented from getting benefit of a situation survivors create while survivors, rather than getting discouraged to keep doing it.... are helped for doing their insanity?

Instead of creating such limits, they should have just made a better tutorial or just a giant red screen saying the tips : "STOP MAKING 3GENS SITUATION", or even simpler, make the gen aura from "deja vu" basekit, while some peoples could complain, it would create a much smaller problem than limiting gen (and at least killer not getting punished) and if survivor, even with such aura, keep doing the exact same "insanity"? they get punished for it

Originally posted by Ohen:

while everyone is quite sick of the two perks, they are unfortunately a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem, if you play without them, you'll be gen rushed

Gonna agree with Jak here, the word "gen-rushing" is overused, and we forgot its true meaning, if it even had one

sure survivors doesn't constantly bring toolboxes, doesn't pring constantly gen perks
But gen efficiency became much better than last years, meanwhile survivors kept getting more and more option/tools to just "not get downed"
So while gen efficiency alone shouldn't be a problem, having survivors being able to extend chases to the extent of having "one gen repair per down" make the whole thing a problem, and shouldn't happen except in very extreme cases, yet can happens casually in pub matches

I mean its one of the many reasons as to why among the top 5 MOST USED/PICKRATE perks, 4 of them are gen slowdown

yeah i'll admit i say gen rushing a lot since i'm from the beginning of dbd's life span, old habits die quite hard, so i do apologize for it, and you do make many excellent points, so i bow my head as the fool here

[Jah'Raksha]

Same goes for corrupt
Default build RN: Corrupt, painres, pop/grim + 1
U don't use it vs decent team? Good luck with 3 hooks
Exeption: nurse, blight and spirit

[Donut]

I run mostly gen slowdown usually being Pop, Grim Embrace, Pain Resonance, Discordance or Lightborn if its a SWF or they have lots of flashlights

At my MMR it seems 90% of teams are running speed repair builds and ya know that's how it is and im not really gonna complain about it since If they have quick repair builds then i can easily just counter with a slowdown build.

i do miss playing in the lower elos and having a bit more fun and flexibility with my builds like using Franklins + Hoarder. Its such a dumb perk combo but its pretty funny when im chasing the survivors items more than the gens xD. But sadly in my elo if i want a win or atleast 2 kills at the minimum then i'm kinda coaxed into bringing repair speed reduction (anti gen rush) perks otherwise i'll chase the first survivor i see, get looped for two minutes and before i know it 2-3 gens are done :( I used to use Hex: Ruin back in the day but after the nerfs its just not that great anymore as its regression is the same as a kick so eh

but thats just through my experience at my current MMR. Could be worse/better at lower/higher ones though