Why game is "surv-sided" if steamers and youtubers doing 500-1000 winstreaks on killers?

[Farewell]

thye everybody whining here?

[skynd-sg]

Escrito originalmente por Sairek Ceareste:

Escrito originalmente por skynd-sg:

You said the magic word by yourself. "here".

The average player is enjoying the game as killer and doesn't whine. Hence those players don't visit the forums nor do they actually try to counterplay the troll-threads here.

I just came back to the forums here to see what is going on. Nearly the same ppl are now at the TCM forums complaining about the "victim" sided game. But there, they were moderated down (in comparison to here, where every troll is welcome).

Its not survivor sided. The killrates are above 60%. The same killrates occur at competitive tournaments: with strict rules AND EVEN WITHOUT STRICT RULES (same rules as pub games).

The complainers have nothing better to do to whine in a assym. game forums how enemy-sided the game is.

And if your next survivor lobby happens to be Hens's 4 man tripple digit escape team, or the 500 winstreak Omen (he might be playing now cause school didnt start yet) and you lose: then guess youself happy - You didn't spent 16k hours in a videogame voluntarily to win against "those" ppl.

Edit: The min. 60% killrates are in any mmr level and every single killer (even trapper) wins on average more of his games than not. Those stats are fact.

The game is not balanced.

Yes the game may achieve the 60% kill rate, or close to it (with some outliers), but that's not indicative of a balanced game, or a fun one. At the end of the day, if the game is not fun and feels frustrating to play, then all we have is a game held up by its licenses and its sunken cost fallacy, and those aren't going to last forever as we've seen with Stranger Things and people will eventually move on, even if it is slowly. They won't stick around, unlike other games like Left 4 Dead 2 which still remain incredibly popular a dozen years later.

Also I don't think tournaments are a good example. You still see a preference on which perks, killers, etc are used in comparison to others regardless of the rules/settings, which shows the game is not balanced whatsoever. If the game was, there would be an even spread across the board. Instead the spread of selection choices is even worse than unmodified Super Smash Bros Melee where the vast majority favor one character, a smaller few favor a couple others, and than the rest of the population is very thinly spread out into other, rather unpopular selections.

Any killer can do well, but the room for error on a lot of those killers is ridiculously small. Using Smash Bros Melee again as an example, It's just like Sheik. On paper she should do well, she has high mobility and combo potential, but she is incredibly demanding and requires pristine play. If you mess up once, then you get punished incredibly hard and it can just snowball into a loss. Why bother playing that when you can just play Nurse and Blight and if you miss a blink or rush, it's no big deal?



As a final nail in the coffin for kill rates, these are incredibly skewed and have been for a very, very long time due to the fact that survivors very routinely like to kill themselves on hook within the first two minutes of a match which often snowballs the rest of the game into a very easy 4k. This is even more common in higher MMRs than lower, from my experience. This happens so often, and has been for so long, that I would not trust any kill statistic. Especially Skull Merchant.
Like, it happens so often, people admit, with pride, that they do it on here.

One the one hand you proclaim that the killrates are "busted" but then in the second sentence you say that they don't even matter for evaluating game balance? What now?What is the ideal balance for you then? Be for one time productive and don't start "whataboutism" and "only say no" (I am not targeting you; I mean the community as a whole). And it actually doesn't matter what we both think is "better". The devs WANT a killrate of 60% across all killers and MMR.

All I read is blabla; as in the outher countless threads. Killrates were illustrated in several MMR areas and for all several killers. So you're actually denying those stats? Do we really hit that level of conspiracy?

So tournaments (with/without) rules don't apply to your arguments as well?? So what then? So every globally related game issue has to be balanced around your own and only your own game experience?

And don't get me on your take "from my experience in high mmr". First: MMR is hidden; you have absolutely no idea if you are high mmr. Secondly: Thanks to the biggest manchild outcry in assymetrical game history: Matchmaking added the softcap of around ~1k MMR which means: An average survivor can and will be paired against 3k MMR (streamer level) killers. This has nothing to do with balance: It's an intended implementation of imbalance. So "high mmr" is a myth.

You think I am wrong? Otzdarva, ScottJund and Choy proved every single detail I mentioned since a long while.

[Sunset Sherbet]

Probably because they have 15k+ hours and spend more time theory crafting the game than you spend at college/your job.

[Sairek Ceareste]

Escrito originalmente por skynd-sg:

Escrito originalmente por Sairek Ceareste:

The game is not balanced.

Yes the game may achieve the 60% kill rate, or close to it (with some outliers), but that's not indicative of a balanced game, or a fun one. At the end of the day, if the game is not fun and feels frustrating to play, then all we have is a game held up by its licenses and its sunken cost fallacy, and those aren't going to last forever as we've seen with Stranger Things and people will eventually move on, even if it is slowly. They won't stick around, unlike other games like Left 4 Dead 2 which still remain incredibly popular a dozen years later.

Also I don't think tournaments are a good example. You still see a preference on which perks, killers, etc are used in comparison to others regardless of the rules/settings, which shows the game is not balanced whatsoever. If the game was, there would be an even spread across the board. Instead the spread of selection choices is even worse than unmodified Super Smash Bros Melee where the vast majority favor one character, a smaller few favor a couple others, and than the rest of the population is very thinly spread out into other, rather unpopular selections.

Any killer can do well, but the room for error on a lot of those killers is ridiculously small. Using Smash Bros Melee again as an example, It's just like Sheik. On paper she should do well, she has high mobility and combo potential, but she is incredibly demanding and requires pristine play. If you mess up once, then you get punished incredibly hard and it can just snowball into a loss. Why bother playing that when you can just play Nurse and Blight and if you miss a blink or rush, it's no big deal?



As a final nail in the coffin for kill rates, these are incredibly skewed and have been for a very, very long time due to the fact that survivors very routinely like to kill themselves on hook within the first two minutes of a match which often snowballs the rest of the game into a very easy 4k. This is even more common in higher MMRs than lower, from my experience. This happens so often, and has been for so long, that I would not trust any kill statistic. Especially Skull Merchant.
Like, it happens so often, people admit, with pride, that they do it on here.

One the one hand you proclaim that the killrates are "busted" but then in the second sentence you say that they don't even matter for evaluating game balance? What now?What is the ideal balance for you then? Be for one time productive and don't start "whataboutism" and "only say no" (I am not targeting you; I mean the community as a whole). And it actually doesn't matter what we both think is "better". The devs WANT a killrate of 60% across all killers and MMR.

All I read is blabla; as in the outher countless threads. Killrates were illustrated in several MMR areas and for all several killers. So you're actually denying those stats? Do we really hit that level of conspiracy?

So tournaments (with/without) rules don't apply to your arguments as well?? So what then? So every globally related game issue has to be balanced around your own and only your own game experience?

And don't get me on your take "from my experience in high mmr". First: MMR is hidden; you have absolutely no idea if you are high mmr. Secondly: Thanks to the biggest manchild outcry in assymetrical game history: Matchmaking added the softcap of around ~1k MMR which means: An average survivor can and will be paired against 3k MMR (streamer level) killers. This has nothing to do with balance: It's an intended implementation of imbalance. So "high mmr" is a myth.

You think I am wrong? Otzdarva, ScottJund and Choy proved every single detail I mentioned since a long while.

Way to twist my words around to try and suit your own political agenda.


No, kill rates are not solely indicative of balance. Focusing solely on the killrates ignores all of the context on why the number is the way that it is, which ironically is completely in line with BHVRs balance philosohpy. "Oh, this add-on is super popular? Let's nerf it so people use the less popular ones more" ignoring why that add-on may be popular or why the other add-ons are not.

Do you remember moonwalk Legion? His kill rates were garbage, and yet there was nothing you could do against it as a survivor. It was imbalanced despite him being below the 60% kill rate par. Despite being weak, it invoked terrible, boring, uninteractive gameplay for the opposing side.


You are genuinely trying to argue that there's no outliers or problems with the game whatsoever, when a match can have any combination of around 250 perks, any of 36 killers that can be played on over 30 maps that have randomized elements within them, survivor items, add-ons for both sides, when the game changes and/or adds content every few weeks, and is somehow balanced at all skill levels from, new players to pro players.


By the way, I know I'm in high MMR, because I consistently go up against high-end streamers in my area. Just because there isn't a number doesn't mean it's not hard to gauge where you're at.

[George Foreman Grill]

If you don't think the current state of the game is survivor-sided you have never made it to high-level play. 3 gens are popping during one chase at times, at the very start of the game. If you end up against a very good team all gens will be done between 3 to 8 minutes, depending on the chases.

Unless you made it to high mmr you won't understand, the game is completely different at that level. And I say this as someone who has played killer AND survivor at a high level.

Now some of you will go "well it was killer sided during the ruin days". Yes. And that was bad so they fixed it. But a patch with no hook grabs? If bully squads wanted to run rampant now, they'd have an easier time than in the past.

[Mors_Indecepta]

Honestly, I don't buy that anyone has a streak that long.
There had to be, HAD TO BE, a lot of matches where they lost to keep their MMR low enough to not face the survivors I see on a daily basis.

[skynd-sg]

Escrito originalmente por Sairek Ceareste:

Escrito originalmente por skynd-sg:

One the one hand you proclaim that the killrates are "busted" but then in the second sentence you say that they don't even matter for evaluating game balance? What now?What is the ideal balance for you then? Be for one time productive and don't start "whataboutism" and "only say no" (I am not targeting you; I mean the community as a whole). And it actually doesn't matter what we both think is "better". The devs WANT a killrate of 60% across all killers and MMR.

All I read is blabla; as in the outher countless threads. Killrates were illustrated in several MMR areas and for all several killers. So you're actually denying those stats? Do we really hit that level of conspiracy?

So tournaments (with/without) rules don't apply to your arguments as well?? So what then? So every globally related game issue has to be balanced around your own and only your own game experience?

And don't get me on your take "from my experience in high mmr". First: MMR is hidden; you have absolutely no idea if you are high mmr. Secondly: Thanks to the biggest manchild outcry in assymetrical game history: Matchmaking added the softcap of around ~1k MMR which means: An average survivor can and will be paired against 3k MMR (streamer level) killers. This has nothing to do with balance: It's an intended implementation of imbalance. So "high mmr" is a myth.

You think I am wrong? Otzdarva, ScottJund and Choy proved every single detail I mentioned since a long while.

Way to twist my words around to try and suit your own political agenda.


No, kill rates are not solely indicative of balance. Focusing solely on the killrates ignores all of the context on why the number is the way that it is, which ironically is completely in line with BHVRs balance philosohpy. "Oh, this add-on is super popular? Let's nerf it so people use the less popular ones more" ignoring why that add-on may be popular or why the other add-ons are not.

Do you remember moonwalk Legion? His kill rates were garbage, and yet there was nothing you could do against it as a survivor. It was imbalanced despite him being below the 60% kill rate par. Despite being weak, it invoked terrible, boring, uninteractive gameplay for the opposing side.


You are genuinely trying to argue that there's no outliers or problems with the game whatsoever, when a match can have any combination of around 250 perks, any of 36 killers that can be played on over 30 maps that have randomized elements within them, survivor items, add-ons for both sides, when the game changes and/or adds content every few weeks, and is somehow balanced at all skill levels from, new players to pro players.


By the way, I know I'm in high MMR, because I consistently go up against high-end streamers in my area. Just because there isn't a number doesn't mean it's not hard to gauge where you're at.

I AM TWISTING WORDS? Did I anywhere say that there is "no problem" to the game?! My guy, please calm a few gears down. And don't put words into my "post".

Again: I can't read anywhere evident data to show your case. But I could actually mention multiple sources. Yet another "high mmr killer".

Bruw, if you only go against those kind of players, then you shouldn't have any issue in the game - according to MMR you are the most skillfull killer out there and you can beat anyone. If it is survivor-sided, and you loose to them without ANY CHANCE of winning, then my guy, you wouldn't play in high mmr. And it's not a game-balance issue - it is a game: you can win and you can lose. Deal with it.

When I cite data from the devs: How do I "ignore" the outliers? But that's how statistics work: There can be outliers, but it doesn't change the fact that the average shows that the killrates are above 50% and that they are close to reach 60% on every killer on every MMR (even in low MMR the average beginner nurse, who doesn't know how to blink, makes kills above 50% on average). All I am saying is: The data don't show that it is survivor-sided. We could actually talk about "what kill/escape rate is actually illustrating a bias"? I have no clue - but reading all the "game is unplayable as killer - game is too survivor sided" is just a whine.

Instead of ignoring anything I say we could actually talk about "Under which conditions the game is killer/survivor sided"? That would be a more fruitful discussion,

But actually: It is what it is - I actually can't care less: The community will stay how it is. I just came back because the TCM forums are infested with the same ppl whining and just wanted to see what is going on. It's still the same here.

[Zelph]

Escrito originalmente por TheMetalOne:

Honestly, I don't buy that anyone has a streak that long.
There had to be, HAD TO BE, a lot of matches where they lost to keep their MMR low enough to not face the survivors I see on a daily basis.

Nope. Most, if not all, of those games were on stream most likely.

[World Guardian of Guthix]

Because it IS survivor sided, it's just a fact and you can't change that with made up "stats" or feelings when you dont play as killer...A Streamer doing win streaks isnt the reflection of how the average player performs, so using a made up number to make it look like easy it's not what actually happens.

[George Foreman Grill]

Escrito originalmente por Zelph:

Escrito originalmente por TheMetalOne:

Honestly, I don't buy that anyone has a streak that long.
There had to be, HAD TO BE, a lot of matches where they lost to keep their MMR low enough to not face the survivors I see on a daily basis.

Nope. Most, if not all, of those games were on stream most likely.

All you have to do to reset your MMR is play on Epic one time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUiUXUcYAXk

If you think celebrities, even the "nice" ones, are doing these insane streaks against top mmr players constantly then you are losing it. Maybe one or two have that level of play, but they are the extreme outliers.

[George Foreman Grill]

Escrito originalmente por World Guardian of Guthix:

Because it IS survivor sided, it's just a fact and you can't change that with made up "stats" or feelings when you dont play as killer...A Streamer doing win streaks isnt the reflection of how the average player performs, so using a made up number to make it look like easy it's not what actually happens.

The thing is that they can get good stats for it being survivor sided, they just aren't being collected. There are good stats for this. The big one: Compare gen completion now to two years ago. Players getting better isn't enough to explain it, maybe subtle hacking would. But unless someone has that stat we're in the dark.

[Mors_Indecepta]

Escrito originalmente por Zelph:

Escrito originalmente por TheMetalOne:

Honestly, I don't buy that anyone has a streak that long.
There had to be, HAD TO BE, a lot of matches where they lost to keep their MMR low enough to not face the survivors I see on a daily basis.

Nope. Most, if not all, of those games were on stream most likely.

Oh, ok...as long as it was MOST of them.
I find people on the internet are usually the most honest; especially when they're trying to get people to pay attention to them.

[World Guardian of Guthix]

Escrito originalmente por TheMetalOne:

Honestly, I don't buy that anyone has a streak that long.
There had to be, HAD TO BE, a lot of matches where they lost to keep their MMR low enough to not face the survivors I see on a daily basis.

No one has a streak that long...Just like devs, survivor mains create false "stats" just to try to falsely claim that the game is not survivor sided...

[Zelgadis]

Killers do get buffed every patch, and camping, tunneling, and slugging still remain strong as ever. Not to mention survivors got some nerfs. So killer is pretty easy even now. I believe that killers think the role is hard because they run into swfs even though it isn't that often and a four man is pretty rare.

[Grug]

Escrito originalmente por Zelgadis:

Killers do get buffed every patch, and camping, tunneling, and slugging still remain strong as ever. Not to mention survivors got some nerfs. So killer is pretty easy even now. I believe that killers think the role is hard because they run into swfs even though it isn't that often and a four man is pretty rare.

Killers got nerfed too lol. Forget about that?

[MuszD]

Every Killer player: "I know im in High MMR"
Every Surv player: "I know im in High MMR"
Clowns xD