Why killer is difficult/relies on survivor mistakes.

[Red Luster YT]

Now before you post 'you just need to git gud scrb stop complaining' or something like that I want you to know this isn't a complaint, I just want to try and show my position on why I think killers need buffs/why they rely on survivor mistakes.
Now lets paint the scene. Lets say you're playing trapper and you aren't using traps or perks (Yes I know that's silly but it's in order to apply to most killers as most share his speed and not all have mobility powers.)

You start and the first thing you do is start heading towards the furthest gen on the map, knowing survivors are likely to spawn around there and start working on that gen. With your slightly above average speed you get there in like...lets say fifteen seconds, even though it likely takes longer with objects and other distractions, lets just say fifteen seconds. When you approach, there's one survivor, who heard you coming due to your terror radius, and is already running away from you. The chase doesn't start for lets say five seconds because they're too far away for it to do so.

The chase starts, so, you follow them and steadily catch up. You come across your first problem, a window. The survivor jumps the window and are now on the other side. Now what are your options? Well, you can go around the window in order to bypass it, or, you can go over it yourself. Going around it seems like a good choice, but as soon as you get to the other side, the survivor has already moved to the first side. You can keep doing this to get the entity to block the window, but the survivor is well aware of when this happens so they use the distance the window creates to put distance between you and it. Alright, what if you use the window?

Well, by the time you've clambered over to the other side, the survivor has ran all the way around to the other side of the window. You CAN'T keep doing this since the survivor can easily keep to whichever side you aren't at, meaning you are wasting your time. So you run around the window until the entity blocks it and forces the survivor to find another escape. At this point you've ♥♥♥♥♥♥ bloodlust tier one at least, so the distance the survivor has made on you matters less, but then comes the one thing all killers dread. The pallet. You run after the survivor to a pallet, and here is where a split second choice must be made. Now the pallet hasn't been dropped yet so you can either lunge for them or bait the pallet drop. In most cases, lunging for them may SEEM like a good idea, even if they end up hitting you with the pallet, as you might get the hit.

That is unlikely however, unless you're already very close to the survivor the speed of the pallet dropping can easily catch and stop your lunge, making that bloodlust from earlier crash to a halt. So what if you bait the drop instead? Well, you manage to get them to drop it without stunning you, but now you have another problem. The pallet is in the way. Now, you have two real choices, go around it, or smash it. Going around it will allow you to keep and continue to build up bloodlust, increasing your speed, but every time you go around the survivor has already jumped to the other side.

Going around and around you may be able to catch them out eventually but you'll waste a LOT of time doing so depending on the survivors skill and ability to observe you. So why not smash it? Well, the animation for doing so is slow, as well as stops you in place as well as makes you lose any built up bloodlust. During this time the survivor can run off, pretty much starting the whole chasing process again. After two more window loops and pallet blocks, you FINALLY get them into an open area and manage to hit them.

You clean your weapon, forcing you into a very sluggish pace as the survivor ZOOMS away due to the hit giving them a speed boost. Having hit them, you lose your bloodlust and the survivor has ♥♥♥♥♥♥ a good distance between you and them, so, the chase starts AGAIN.

Luckily you close that distance fairly quickly and only get looped maybe once or twice before hitting them again. Finally, they are downed. You go over, pick them up and move on over to a hook to put them on. You get them on the hook and realize...at least one-two gens have been done already and this is only your first hook.

Now in that example it was a perkless wm1 killer vs a perkless survivor. Now there are many ways different killers can all avoid these situations, but there is an equal if not GREATER amount of ways survivors can make up any mistakes they end up making. The only real tactic a killer can use is mindgames, but such a choice doesn't WORK on all survivors, yet it's really the only PERSONAL ability a killer can use in order to get the survivor to make the first bad move.

But that's the thing, the survivor HAS to mess up for you to capitilize on it. If the survivor is smart and makes every right move, there is little to NOTHING a killer can do to stop them.
If each survivor played smart, then by the time the killer gets the first hook one to two gens can be done since it only takes about 80 seconds to complete a gen on your own, even less time if you hit all the good skillchecks.

Now remember, this is NO perks, NO powers, NO items. The killers most basic abilities verses a survivors basic abilities. Lets try to keep this discussion clean, I am curious if there are any counterpoints to this.

(Edit:Added spaces so it's not a massive wall of text. I get it already. >.>)

[Red Luster YT]

İlk olarak +ToC+ Feleas tarafından gönderildi:

OP you're right, the Killer does revolve around waiting for Survivors to make mistakes. However, you can coax them into making mistakes by playing the mind game by tunneling them into making a mistake.

It's possible, and it definitely works so us Killers aren't completely out of control of the situation.

As said it can work, but it relies on a survivor to fall for the mindgame to begin with. Which is relying on them to be stupid/to make a mistake of missreading the mindgame and falling for it.

[Lord Wholesome]

OP, your entire post seems to written from a point of view where you as the killer are not using mindgames to your advantage and are simply bluntly chasing them. You make it sound like it takes hours to even get one hit in, yet in reality this really shouldn't take longer than the first few seconds. This is my experience for two years straight as a killer.

Some key things for you to research:
- Moonwalking
- Reverse Moonwalking
- Simply hiding your red glow
- Figuring out what is a safe pallet and which isn't. They guarantee you hits

Granted, ofcourse there's survivors that preemptively do the good stuff where they are more than ready for you, but a rule of thumb: If the chase lasts too long you're wasting time not protecting your gens.

[Red Luster YT]

İlk olarak Lord Wholesome tarafından gönderildi:

OP, your entire post seems to written from a point of view where you as the killer are not using mindgames to your advantage and are simply bluntly chasing them. You make it sound like it takes hours to even get one hit in, yet in reality this really shouldn't take longer than the first few seconds. This is my experience for two years straight as a killer.

Some key things for you to research:
- Moonwalking
- Reverse Moonwalking
- Simply hiding your red glow
- Figuring out what is a safe pallet and which isn't. They guarantee you hits

Granted, ofcourse there's survivors that preemptively do the good stuff where they are more than ready for you, but a rule of thumb: If the chase lasts too long you're wasting time not protecting your gens.

'The only real tactic a killer can use is mindgames, but such a choice doesn't WORK on all survivors, yet it's really the only PERSONAL ability a killer can use in order to get the survivor to make the first bad move.'
I've used those mindgames before, and yknow, I'll happily admit that I probably suck at them, but I have used them effectively before. The problem is that against most survivors with more than half a braincell will expect such games and these games are usually the only way to get a hit in.

But for the whole chase thing, that's kinda a difficult balance. Yes it doesn't take hours to catch survivors, but a five second chase and a fifteen second chase are VASTLY different and can easily spell defeat. It also depends on how pre-emptively a survivor runs, if they start running the moment your terror radius is heard they will easily have a lot more space between you and them, making it take a good few seconds to even have the 'chase' start. Also, just giving up on a chase is almost NEVER a good option as it pretty much means you've admitted to wasting time and all that effort was for nothing unless you quit the chase early.

[Cherry Chaotic]

İlk olarak RedLusterArk tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Dex tarafından gönderildi:

> killers need buffs

Are you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ kidding me? Killers have been getting non stop buffs! The survival rate is around 30% for survivors. Killers are getting on average over 2 kills a game. What more do you want?

Firstly, do not quote statistics. The only statics that are usable do NOT take in account of suicides, disconnects, and rank. I am SURE that stat could apply to ranks 20-16 but that's because it's mostly people that have never played before. Also...
'Killers have been getting non-stop buffs'? I'd LOVE to see where you came up with that, also, even if that were true, the buffs have been very minor or to fix mechanics that were broken. Do you remember how flashlights use to work? They'd blind you within moments and could stun you at any point in an animation.

These stats also do not count all the times killers let the survivor(s) escape as well.

[Heru Ra Ha]

İlk olarak Dex tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Myu tarafından gönderildi:

The statistics don't take into account disconnects, the survivors that remain AFTER the disconnects, the salty ones who quit after 1st down, the ones who intentionally kill themselves to derank, ETC.
Or maybe they don't. But maybe they do. They haven't said.

It's an unreliable statistic in general.

It doesn't matter. If the killers are getting more than 2 kills a round the game is already balanced towards the killers. What do you think would happen if the killers were buffed? would they suddenly get LESS kills per round?

Mindblown, big brain survivor main.

1st stats matter
2nd doesnt matter

[Kung Pow Chicken]

I'm not a fan of circle jerks either. I get frustrated that a game about playing as a horror movie killer has turned into someone's twisted version of 'ring-around-the-rosie', even more so when you manage to swallow your pride and keep playing, even if you lose, and they still taunt. Even after the game is over, some have to comment about your gameplay.

But only partially the killer relies on survivor mistakes. Some of the other part is getting in their heads as the game goes on. Who are your chasing? Do they have a sprint perk? Who else might be on gens? Are they just running distraction? Is that why they seem so annoying? Etc etc. It's why the killer is graded on deviousness. You already seem to have some sense of analyzing, just try to strategize.

Personally, I just throw a few matches and see what the general teamwork is. What does it cost? Some time and ranks? Doesn't matter if I turn the game off and walk away. Sure, I play to have some fun and/or pass time, but the competition status stays online and doesn't matter offline. Anyone who enjoys pissing you off isn't worth allowing to rent space in your head.

[Mochan]

Both sides rely on the mistakes of the other. Killer has way more leeway in making mistakes. You can make mistakes all day and still "win" in the end. Survivors you make one mistake and you can die just like that and it's the end of the game.

Also, killer was way more detection perks and other abilities to enable him to "force" Survivor mistakes. Survivors can't really force the killer to make mistakes other than make him chase a good looper in favorable terrain.

And lol at Killers always refusing to accept statistics, you can't because if you did you'd realize the game is biased towards killers right now. Sorry, this is the truth, you just can't accept it.

[Red Luster YT]

İlk olarak Mochan tarafından gönderildi:

Both sides rely on the mistakes of the other. Killer has way more leeway in making mistakes. You can make mistakes all day and still "win" in the end. Survivors you make one mistake and you can die just like that and it's the end of the game.

Also, killer was way more detection perks and other abilities to enable him to "force" Survivor mistakes. Survivors can't really force the killer to make mistakes other than make him chase a good looper in favorable terrain.

And lol at Killers always refusing to accept statistics, you can't because if you did you'd realize the game is biased towards killers right now. Sorry, this is the truth, you just can't accept it.

You know I was actually about to consider your points, but after that last bit you just ruined any point you had.

Besides you're horribly wrong anyway. Killer has more leeway in making mistakes? Don't make me laugh, survivors have self care, dead hard, sprint burst/lithe/balanced landing, and desisive strike. Literally a majority of survivor perks are used to make up for mistakes, killers have near to none, they at best have a few perks that can help with survivors who abuse their powers like stuns, windows, flashlights, ect.

And again, the statistic is being refused because it is TOO VAGUE. You don't believe vax causes autism do ya? There's statistics to prove that, but of course, you know better because the 'statistics' thats used for it are either too vague or outright wrong. Stop acting like that statistic has any ground, it's a fruitless and useless point.

[Shiro♌]

İlk olarak Mochan tarafından gönderildi:

And lol at Killers always refusing to accept statistics, you can't because if you did you'd realize the game is biased towards killers right now. Sorry, this is the truth, you just can't accept it.

Yeah.
That really makes us to believe you.
The SWF is in charge, and you know it.
Solo Survivor is hard to play, Killer is easier to play than the solo Survivor.

So, it goes like this; SWF > Killers > Solo Survivors, and you know about that, which is the worst on your answer.

That makes me to think, whether you're joking, or lying.

It may be Killer sided, if every match was burnt Ebony Memento Mori Offering, but because it isn't, then it can't be Killer sided.
Is it really that hard to think about it?

I agree with you, OP.
Many of the key moves (to turn the match in your favor, as a Killer) rely on X mistakes.
One mistake won't change the result, just the Chase.

You must use the Killer's Power.
Without it, you're a doll, with which Survivors like to play with.

[C+]

İlk olarak RedLusterArk tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Mochan tarafından gönderildi:

Both sides rely on the mistakes of the other. Killer has way more leeway in making mistakes. You can make mistakes all day and still "win" in the end. Survivors you make one mistake and you can die just like that and it's the end of the game.

Also, killer was way more detection perks and other abilities to enable him to "force" Survivor mistakes. Survivors can't really force the killer to make mistakes other than make him chase a good looper in favorable terrain.

And lol at Killers always refusing to accept statistics, you can't because if you did you'd realize the game is biased towards killers right now. Sorry, this is the truth, you just can't accept it.

You know I was actually about to consider your points, but after that last bit you just ruined any point you had.

Besides you're horribly wrong anyway. Killer has more leeway in making mistakes? Don't make me laugh, survivors have self care, dead hard, sprint burst/lithe/balanced landing, and desisive strike. Literally a majority of survivor perks are used to make up for mistakes, killers have near to none, they at best have a few perks that can help with survivors who abuse their powers like stuns, windows, flashlights, ect.

And again, the statistic is being refused because it is TOO VAGUE. You don't believe vax causes autism do ya? There's statistics to prove that, but of course, you know better because the 'statistics' thats used for it are either too vague or outright wrong. Stop acting like that statistic has any ground, it's a fruitless and useless point.

He’s a SWF player who complained the other day about how killers kept dodging him. He’s a survivor main who barely playss killer. There is no point in arguing people who plays only one side almost exclusively. They’ve got in their head that they are always right and won’t even bother listening what people on the other side have to say. See how he just ends his post “this is truth whether you accept it or not”

[Laakeri]

Biggest offenders are still map balance and CWF.

Op topic on catching survivors. I see killers even at r1 that have no idea how to play tiles. L T walls, jungle gyms and killer shack for example

[Charlie Brown]

and with this we are at 3 non sense posts made by the same op in 2 days! congrats!

[Unapologetic Bigot]

I appreciate your detailed explanation of the problem, Robz, but DbD is all about strong perks and using survivor/killer mistakes to your advantage. You can`t have counter-perks for everything all the time and you can`t always pick "correct" killer for all situations. Live with it.

Thread is meaningless. Game is all about BP and pips. If you have a problem with some aspects of it - Use correct perks to compensate your weak side.
You have different killers with different powers too. Doesn`t make sense to exclude them in discussion. They are permanent and can be used every game.

If survivor tries to distract you for too long - Chase another one. Running in circles can be a waste of time. By the time bloodlust will be activated, all most gens will be fixed.
If you can`t slow down the process, then hook at least one survivor. The one you can catch of course. If can`t - Move to the next match. Devs made it clear that things like competitive gameplay and skills is not one of their priorities. Pretty good job so far, if that`s the plan.

I must also agree with one user here and i mentioned it myself few times before, that difficulty in this game from easy to hard is: SWF > Killer > Solo survivor. Since I am not "one-sided" idiot and i`m also solo survivor all the time, i can say that if i am killer`s permanent target - He`ll most likely down me sooner or later. Gens or gates are not "very" important for him. If he found someone, he is already happy and will camp that person to death. Survivor mistakes are not critical for killer in this case. They can make chase shorter, but even without mistakes, things like bloodlust, lack of pallets, perks or even killer power will end the chase soon enough.
I can ask "Why solo survivor is difficult/relies on other survivor skills/killer mistakes".

Have fun.

[OrderofKhaos]

The biggest problem that I see in a chase is there are too many "safe" pallets and window. These places like the main building in Iron works need the Kool-Aid Man to show up and bust some holes in walls.

The problem is there isn't enough "mind game" potential, because you simply can not mind game these spots. You, depending on the killer can only hold W and follow.

[OrderofKhaos]

İlk olarak Laser Chainsaw Swords Pls tarafından gönderildi:

Use nurse, ignore all "safe" places.

But there shouldn't be places you feel absolutely safe, currently there are places and you should not have to use only one killer.