I Feel Like Exhaustion Perks Are Far Too Strong. [EDITED]

[Zath]

Before I begin my rant/explanation, allow me to preempt the flow of hate that merely suggesting a nerf to anything in this game will inevitably receive.

"You're just a salty killer main!"
Yes I am a killer main, however I believe that my opinion is unbiased in regards to this topic, since I have been playing both sides since the release of this game. I understand the dynamics of both sides, and the frustrations. I also believe that certain killer perks such as Noed, Rancor, and certain killers such as Nurse and Spirit are also unbalanced, however that is not the topic of this thread.

"I think X perk is fine because Y Perk/Killer/Add-on counters it."
Just because something has a counter does not make it balanced. Unless the counter to that something is part of the base abilities available to any killer/survivor than that aspect of the game needs to be altered.

"I've had little to no trouble with X perk, so you should just GIT GUD."
That's probably true. I could stand to get better at this game. I think we all could at the end of the day. However, do not just assume that I am speaking only through my own opinion on these perks. This thread has been an idea long in the making, and I have used ideas/material from many friends and community members over the years, and I'd like to think that I speak for all of them.

I can't think of any other common objections to this thread, so lets just get right into it shall we?

Note: At the end of the day this is a Discussion. By no means should you accept my words as law, nor should you outright disagree without providing any reasoning as to why. Please, feel free to suggest your own changes, or explain why you feel no changes need to be made.

Also, I believe that if map design were altered than all of these perks with the exception of Adrenaline would be fine in their current state. However since reworking every single map from the ground up is harder than changing some perk values, I decided to throw this out there.



Lets just get right into it.

Sprint Burst
When starting to run, break into a sprint at 150 % your normal running speed for a maximum of 3 seconds.

Causes the exhausted status effect for 60/50/40 seconds.

The main problem with this perk isn't the speed it provides, but in how it is activated. When the perk is active unless the killer is very lucky it's practically insured that you will reach safety before the killer can harm you, regardless of how bad your position may be. It also forces the survivor to walk to objectives, which can end up crippling their ability to reach objectives if they wish to preserve it.

My proposed change is simply adding a 3 second timer before the perk will activate, similar to Head On Apply Directly To The Forehead. This will not only punish survivors that don't pay attention to their surroundings/positioning, it will also allow survivors to preserve their perk without forcing themselves to be immersed.

Adrenaline
You are fueled by unexpected energy when on the verge of escape.
Instantly heal one Health State and sprint at 150 % of your normal running speed for 5 seconds when the Exit Gates are powered.

Adrenaline is on hold if you are disabled at the moment it should take effect and will activate when freed.
Adrenaline will wake you up if you are asleep when it triggers.
Adrenaline ignores Exhaustion.

Causes the Exhausted Status Effect for 60/50/40 seconds.

This perk is by far the least balanced of all the Exhaustion perks. The main problem is how much distance this perk can afford you over the average killer. It's practically a guaranteed escape against more than half the killer cast if you have competent teammates, who could also be running Adrenaline.

My proposed change is to either reduce the speed boost you are granted, make it so adrenaline will simply remove exhaustion instead of outright ignoring in when triggered, or make it so that it will only heal you if you are downed.

Balanced Landing
Your agility is incomparable.

Cat-like reflexes reduce your stagger duration from falls by 75 %.

Upon landing, start sprinting at 150 % of your normal running speed for a maximum of 3 seconds if not exhausted.

Causes the Exhausted Status Effect for 60/50/40 seconds.
This perk is very useful, even while exhausted. That is a problem. Due to current map design, this perk can be downright game-breaking at certain locations, while being completley useless at others. HaddonfunField being the worst offender.

My proposed change is to either add a cooldown to the stagger reduction, something short like Quick And Quiet, or simply reduce the duration of the speed boost you are granted if it is going to provide so much utility. Or just fix the damn maps. Seriously this has been a problem since day 1 BHVR come on get your ♥♥♥♥ together

Lithe
After performing a rushed vault, break into a sprint at 150 % of your normal running speed for a maximum of 3 seconds.

Causes the Exhausted Status Effect for 60/50/40 seconds.
In Lithe's previous state, you needed to be in a chase to be able to use it. In that state I had no problem with this perk, since even though you can gain an insane amount of distance when you combine a window with a speed boost, the killer still had a chance to gain bloodlust to counteract the gap.

However many survivors complained about how finicky this system was, which was a legitimate complaint. So BHVR fixed it for them.

This made the perk far too powerful when used optimally in my opinion, but I also feel that this change was needed and optimal use isn't guaranteed. so my suggestion would be to simply reduce the duration of the speed boost you are granted but change the method by which you trigger it so that you have control.

You may notice that I am not including Head On Apply Directly To The Forehead Or Dead Hard on this list. That is because I see no problems with either of these perks. Both are very situational perks that have counter-play. I hope they stay exactly as they are, minus the various bugs of course.


Now it's your turn to type something! Agree? Disagree? Have your own suggestions? Feel free to post them below! That's what the discussions are for, to discuss. Hopefully I'll see you in the fog.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Wimlin:

More crybaby killer mains trying to get survivors nerfed. Was the Decisive Strike nerf just not enough? Will you not stop crying until survivors have no good perks? I would say SWF in general is overpowered and needs to be addressed in some meaningful way. PAS is if anything exceptionally tilted towards the killer. PAS games I would say killer kills everyone 75% of the time from what I've seen. The only time survivors do well is when you have a total noob killer or a killer that wants to farm. Outside of that it almost always turns out badly. SWF on the other hand is a lot different since you can premake perks to balance the whole thing out.

Also in your constant crying about survivor perks have you ever thought maybe CAMPING should be addressed in some meaningful way. Something that completely ruins the game for everyone especially in PAS? To echo what Joe said about killer queues seem like they went up quite a bit after the DS nerf and they haven't ever really recovered. I stopped playing for the past 9 months until recently and I recall killer queues being 1-2 minutes before. Now they are 5-10 and have been pretty much all of the past month. You keep nerfing survivors to where they don't have a chance and you won't have anyone to kill anymore. I guarantee if they implemented all your ideas I'd quit for good this time. The DS nerf was bad enough and terribly one-sided since they didn't nerf camping or NOED. I've seen 4 survivors alive when doors are opened and everyone die because of NOED... most won't even bother trying to save anyone now for fear of NOED.

Please read my first bullet point.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Smokes:

remove noed and its a deal

I doubt the Devs will ever remove anything but I do agree that Noed in its current state is stupid.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Auralescent:

Originally posted by Mister Holdout:

Exhaustion perks are fine. Devs just need to improve map design.

+1

I fully agree, however perk changes are much easier than reworking every single map from the ground up so I figured I'd throw this out there.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Joe Zombie:

No. To all of your ideas.

Some of them don't even make sense. One of your suggestions is to turn Adrenaline into a... Exhaustion Unbreakable? And you say it should remove Exhaustion, so if you're running another Exhaustion perk you can use that one afterwards anyway? So not only will Adrenaline heal you but would allow you to run a second Exhaustion perk? Maybe I misunderstand.

It's just an idea I had. I feel that a perk that heals you and ignores the exhaustion mechanic entirely is a bit much, and no endgame perk should be that strong. Something needs to be done to it regardless of map design, so If you have a suggestion of your own I'd be glad to hear it.

It is also a strong endgame perk, which killers have many and can completely snowball a game in their favor. Especially against solo players.

Again, there is a difference between strong and TOO strong. Blood Warden is strong, Noed is too strong. Using them together is ridiculous. That's my reasoning with Adrenaline and the other exhaustion perks.

BL is more map-dependent than anything and tbh I just never see anybody complaining about BL.

Then I apologize for what I'm about to say because it will no doubt sound arrogant, but you have not been paying attention.

There are maps where it is pretty useless, and there are maps where it is legitimately game breaking. It needs to be somewhere in the middle somehow.

And I don't even know what to say about your issues with Lithe. Especially with how BHVR already nerfed window interactions so if you don't position yourself properly to a window you're getting hit, and killer hits extend so far through windows and over pallets to begin with you can still take a hit before the perk even activates.

Maybe you have a point there. I was thinking of worst case scenario Windows like Ironworks or Cowshed, but I guess the majority of Windows are unsafe.

SB activates right away and then its done, and its been nerfed already, it is simply not an issue anymore and certainly not "too" strong anymore after its nerf. Still can be a strong perk to counter Pig, etc., but it was "too" strong in its previous state, not now. And to me it seems if the survivor is smart and preemptively runs before the killer is near enough, and THEN it activates, you will only have created much more distance between you initially, forcing the killer to catch up or simply ignore you. Instead of blowing the perk, slowing back down to a run, and killer receives BL.

My main problem with SB in its current state is how harshly it counters any form of stealth or zoning. With that in mind I figured a delayed Sprint would give killers a chance to catch survivors off guard, while still rewarding survivors for being smart about their surroundings. That being said you do have a point. Perhaps having it only activate while in terror radius instead?

not sure at what point survivors can keep receiving constant nerfs to every strong or semi-decent perk, or even meme perks (PTB Head On), or any aspect of survivor gameplay, before killer queues become even longer and playing survivor, especially solo, is a waste of time and a migraine. More than it already is.

I'm not soley advocating for survivor perk nerfs, obviously certain killer perks/mechanics need to be tweaked as well, I just felt that this discussion was long enough as it was and didn't want to add 7 more paragraphs to it talking about Noed and Bloodlust.

Overall I do appreciate you taking the time to make genuine and constructive criticism instead of just saying that I'm wrong by attacking me without disputing my arguement.

[Sciroccu]

Honestly there is not much to debate man if u think that lithe is "far too powerful"...
Just your own opinion that relies on nothing. At this point I can say that u having a knife and a 115% speed is far too much too. I can't understand what bothers u in lithe, I've used that perk during a long time it's nothing special. U gain a bit of distance and that's it, done, every semi decent killer will come back to u after a few seconds, congratulations you've extended ur chase about 10 sec at best, honestly I've switched to DH I find it a bit better...

[Zath]

Originally posted by Sciroccu:

Honestly there is not much to debate man if u think that lithe is "far too powerful"...
Just your own opinion that relies on nothing. At this point I can say that u having a knife and a 115% speed is far too much too. I can't understand what bothers u in lithe, I've used that perk during a long time it's nothing special. U gain a bit of distance and that's it, done, every semi decent killer will come back to u after a few seconds, congratulations you've extended ur chase about 10 sec at best, honestly I've switched to DH I find it a bit better...

I have changed my stance on lithe. I did some thinking and I realized that I was only considering the scenarios in which it is used optimally, at already super strong windows. It didn't occur to me that so many people wouldn't be using this perk optimally, which is the only case where I belive it to be far too powerful since in that case you already force the killer to vault which combined with Lithe can give you far more distance than every other exhaustion perk other than Adrenaline.

However since you cannot guarantee optimal use I think the best solution would be to make it so you can control when it is used, perhaps by using a different input at a window, in return for a reduced speed boost. Solves both problems with the perk at once.

[Sciroccu]

Originally posted by Zatharax:

Originally posted by Sciroccu:

Honestly there is not much to debate man if u think that lithe is "far too powerful"...
Just your own opinion that relies on nothing. At this point I can say that u having a knife and a 115% speed is far too much too. I can't understand what bothers u in lithe, I've used that perk during a long time it's nothing special. U gain a bit of distance and that's it, done, every semi decent killer will come back to u after a few seconds, congratulations you've extended ur chase about 10 sec at best, honestly I've switched to DH I find it a bit better...

I have changed my stance on lithe. I did some thinking and I realized that I was only considering the scenarios in which it is used optimally, at already super strong windows. It didn't occur to me that so many people wouldn't be using this perk optimally, which is the only case where I belive it to be far too powerful since in that case you already force the killer to vault which combined with Lithe can give you far more distance than every other exhaustion perk other than Adrenaline.

However since you cannot guarantee optimal use I think the best solution would be to make it so you can control when it is used, perhaps by using a different input at a window, in return for a reduced speed boost. Solves both problems with the perk at once.

U can't guarantee an optimal use of Lithe, never, if the killer comes to u at a moment u'll be forced to fast vault a window no matter what, u can't save it for the optimal window that is 50 meters away and just slow vault the others :)
Indeed it's a good perk, but really nothing more. It's very good combined with quick and quiet and dance with me but it's 3 slots for just one thing and if the killers doesn't lose LOS it's useless.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Sciroccu:

Originally posted by Zatharax:

I have changed my stance on lithe. I did some thinking and I realized that I was only considering the scenarios in which it is used optimally, at already super strong windows. It didn't occur to me that so many people wouldn't be using this perk optimally, which is the only case where I belive it to be far too powerful since in that case you already force the killer to vault which combined with Lithe can give you far more distance than every other exhaustion perk other than Adrenaline.

However since you cannot guarantee optimal use I think the best solution would be to make it so you can control when it is used, perhaps by using a different input at a window, in return for a reduced speed boost. Solves both problems with the perk at once.

U can't guarantee an optimal use of Lithe, never, if the killer comes to u at a moment u'll be forced to fast vault a window no matter what, u can't save it for the optimal window that is 50 meters away and just slow vault the others :)
Indeed it's a good perk, but really nothing more. It's very good combined with quick and quiet and dance with me but it's 3 slots for just one thing and if the killers doesn't lose LOS it's useless.

I wouldn't say useless but it's still very effective when used properly. To each his own at the end of the day.

[Mr. KitKat]

the iq of the dbd players of 2019 is getting lower and lower.
try to play against a 30sec cooldown of sprint burst, or against balanced landing/sprint burst combo, or adrenaline/sprint burst combo.
how about you all killer mains try to actually get good at the game?
this game right now compared to the early state is SO EASY MODE FOR KILLERS
killers right now have mastered the crying over mastering the game.
my advice is
spend less time typing on forums and more time mastering the game

[McBujon]

As if exhaustion nerf wasn't enough.

[Ryu the Fox]

This is just a "git gud" thread

[HAWAIIANpikachu]

I think SB is fine, sure you can be out of position all you want for almost no way to counter it except them just being in the middle of an area with no pallets. The downside is they have to walk or waste SB and potentially risk not being able to use it. It could honestly be slightly less sprint and still be fine.

IMO i think adrenaline should be a switch, either a free health state or the sprint burst if healthy. That's powerful enough.

Balanced Landing needs the stagger reduction to also be tied to exhaustion, that way you can't create new loops on certain maps (looks at Haddonfield)

Lithe is fine. imo it could do with even a small buff of a slightly faster vault (similar to BL)

[Zath]

Originally posted by insert name:

the iq of the dbd players of 2019 is getting lower and lower.
try to play against a 30sec cooldown of sprint burst, or against balanced landing/sprint burst combo, or adrenaline/sprint burst combo.
how about you all killer mains try to actually get good at the game?
this game right now compared to the early state is SO EASY MODE FOR KILLERS
killers right now have mastered the crying over mastering the game.
my advice is
spend less time typing on forums and more time mastering the game

Please read my first bullet point. Or maybe actually read part of my thread that isn't the title.

[Zath]

Originally posted by Ryu the Fox:

This is just a "git gud" thread

I am not the only one that has voiced these opinions or encounters these problems, and implicating that I am does not invalidate the points I have made.

[PrinceCharming]

Originally posted by Baby Ghoul:

Lithe, Sprint Burst, and Balanced Landing are fine.

There's no reason to complain about those perks as a killer.

Dead Hard is a problem right now, and needs to be nerfed. I don't know why you didn't mention the most broken and most used exhaustion perk in an exhaustion perk post.

Adrenaline needs to be disabled from a SWF group of 3-4, and then they should proceed from there. Personally, I don't think it should activate for hooked survivors.

I'm sorry what? Dead Hard needs a nerf? It's broken? How and why?

Dead Hard's counter is to literally just wait until they use it, they're FORCED to use it if you know they have it, the ONLY good thing it's for is that you will dodge 1 hit because the Killer most likely doesn't know you have Dead Hard, but some killer just expect it, because it's a very popular exhaustion perk.

I do it myself all the time, always expect Dead Hard and rub their back just waiting for them to naruto dash forward then get their skull caved in with my swing.

(Pretty dead giveaway if they're constantly looking behind them when you catch up).

That tiny speed boost can help, sometimes. Because if they swing JUST after you use your Dead Hard they are guaranteed to hit you at the end of their Lunge.

And if they managed to get just enough distance, well played on them, but after that it's pretty much all up to luck and your looping capabilities.

I have 0 Idea how it's broken, strong? Can be for sure, especially against new players. But broken? I just can't see it.