[DISCUSSION] Weights, fish fighting, gear stats and more in Theorycraft!

[GenieWH]

Hey guys, it's Genie. I wanted to start this discussion with you because I myself have been dwelling on it for quite some time. I've been doing so e theory crafting and idea discussions with a few people already and haven't pin pointed where the issue lies. Hopefully with open dialog we can help the devs get the situation handled and the game working properly.

To start, I need to open with an apology to my good friend KP_Shamino. I was watching him stream yesterday and he was discussion the topic and I threw my side of the conversation in very hastily and heated. I almost feel like I attacked him on his own stream. With that I am sorry and hope KP can find it within him to forgive me <3

Now with that out of the way let's discuss the topic. For that, I need to DEFINE the problem. As many of you know, when you hook a big fish such as a sturgeon or alligator gar, the fish rips line and becomes incredibly difficult, almost impossible to land. In some cases the fish will spool you and break your gear. The fish itself varies size to size but we can never tell with certainty what the cause is. The issue stems from 3 possible places; the weight of the fish, the type off getting that fish does, and the gear used on hooking said fish.

Most often, the theory is in the gear itself. Since most of the issues lie with bobber fishing, it's easy to look at the gear and say it's not strong enough to handle the big fish. Because we cannot compare catching a sturgeon with a cast setup, we assume gear has a lot to do with it. If you pair the gear properly (line strength, rod/reel comparison, etc) you could agree that the rods aren't nearly matched to keeping a 20-30kilo fish hooked and the reels don't have the strength to keep fro. Being spooled.

Another angle is the possibility that the fish stats, values we cannot see, are generated randomly wrong and cause issues with the catch portion of the game. If a fish spawns with stats that make it pretty much impossible to reel, no amount of gear will help, and making bigger and better gear only prolongs the fix, like putting a band aid on it. You can see this by the variations of fish that come in easy versus those that fight the spool out.

So what do you guys think? Jot down your theories and comments. Let's ask questions and open up some thoughts we can share with the devs so we can get this fixed!

[Shanga]

If I recall what KW said on latest WoTG they haven't yet finished adding all the essential fish stats (such as fatigue and fatigue recovery) or if they added them they're in a very rough state.

I think we can have a clear oppinion if it works when devs say "ok, this is done, this how we want the fish fights to be" and just before they say "now we move on to other things".

[Capt_Mac_141]

Just a thought,

Is it possible that some people are still trying to reel / retrieve the fish ("horsing") while it is still running. I have found that with my drag set correctly and my hand OFF the mouse (but always at the ready) while the fish runs, the drag / tension eventually stops the fish. Then you can work them in. If they run again just release the mouse and let them run against the drag.

Just my thought, maybe its a player that needs to adjust their technique to the "new" mechanics.

[dannyboy]

I've been spooled a couple of times lately. Once by a pike (pretty sure), the other by a sturgeon. After the initial strike in both cases I didn't reel or do anything, just let the fish go. Both times there was no bend in the rod but the tension meter was in the yellor/orange. The meter also behaves oddly, bouncing up & down like an old 80's graphic equiliser. The fish trundled along till they had 300-400feet of line out, then a big burst of speed (at which point the rod started to bend) till all my line was gone. Boom, fish gone. Nothing I could do about it.

I have landed plenty of big fish, just seems that sometimes you get one like this. TBH I had just put it down to being a bugged fish, but now I am curious to see what everyone else makes of it.

[Teknaton]

Watch this video from KP-Shamino. Is this a well written program? Pulling a dead fish on the sand? 5 game-hours = 1 and quarter real-hour. Is this a game? Is this the "new" mechanics? LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lwTS9BIzo0&list=PLoqD4j_Q6UlzBWFTxvraTb8m8uH3r0kW7

[etienne.bruere]

The first issue is the randomness of strength versus size. You can fight a strong trophy and think it's a unique or be surprised to catch a weak unique. Of course when you hook a strong unique it will spool you.

Second issue is the formula of strength relative to weight.
There is a natural law that governs strength relative to size for all living creatures :
Strength is proportional to the square of the size and weight is proportional to the cube of the size. When you double the size, strength is multiplied by 4 and weight by 8.
If a 2kg fish is able to pull with 2kg strength then a 16kg fish of the same species will pull with 8kg, not 16kg.

Third issue is in the mechanics.
IRL the challenge is not to stop the fish at long distance, but the real challenge is in the last 10 meters when you don't have enough line elasticity when the fish is shaking its head, especially when the head is out of water.
In the game both average and max strength of the fish decrease with fatigue.
IRL strength will decrease with time but the effect of short spikes on the tension of the line will increase with the reverse of distance. Because of the inertia of the spool the drag cannot react quick enough to limit these spikes.
IRL the hardest part is to guide the fish to the landing net. We need this in game because with the current gameplay we are missing the best part.

Fourth issue is the tackle balance.
We need much more lines. We have braids of 5.5kg, 9.7kg and 13.6kg. It's a joke !
The 0.28 braid is the only choice for pikes, muskies, etc...
We should have a choice of 3 or 4 lines for every fish with better chances to get bites with thinner lines but a harder fight.
We also need precision to set the drag. Reels with 6 notches are a joke. 100 would be a minimum.

The last issue is the fact that you don't need skills to play, you just need luck. This is a serious issue for a competitive game.

IRL you have to react to the fish. Start reeling when it does not pull and stop when it pulls. But in game you always finish a full turn of the crank when you stop. Reeling needs to stop immediately when the mouse button is up.
IRL the hardest part is the last meters to the landing net but in game we don't even have landing nets.
IRL you will not catch 20 big fishes in a single square meter and nothing else 10 meters away from this spot.
IRL when you catch a trophy in one spot you have to find another spot if you want more of them.

[Rob-66]

the devs already know all this there working on it right now

[boogadooga]

Originally posted by etienne.bruere:

The first issue is the randomness of strength versus size. You can fight a strong trophy and think it's a unique or be surprised to catch a weak unique. Of course when you hook a strong unique it will spool you.

Second issue is the formula of strength relative to weight.
There is a natural law that governs strength relative to size for all living creatures :
Strength is proportional to the square of the size and weight is proportional to the cube of the size. When you double the size, strength is multiplied by 4 and weight by 8.
If a 2kg fish is able to pull with 2kg strength then a 16kg fish of the same species will pull with 8kg, not 16kg.

Third issue is in the mechanics.
IRL the challenge is not to stop the fish at long distance, but the real challenge is in the last 10 meters when you don't have enough line elasticity when the fish is shaking its head, especially when the head is out of water.
In the game both average and max strength of the fish decrease with fatigue.
IRL strength will decrease with time but the effect of short spikes on the tension of the line will increase with the reverse of distance. Because of the inertia of the spool the drag cannot react quick enough to limit these spikes.
IRL the hardest part is to guide the fish to the landing net. We need this in game because with the current gameplay we are missing the best part.

Fourth issue is the tackle balance.
We need much more lines. We have braids of 5.5kg, 9.7kg and 13.6kg. It's a joke !
The 0.28 braid is the only choice for pikes, muskies, etc...
We should have a choice of 3 or 4 lines for every fish with better chances to get bites with thinner lines but a harder fight.
We also need precision to set the drag. Reels with 6 notches are a joke. 100 would be a minimum.

The last issue is the fact that you don't need skills to play, you just need luck. This is a serious issue for a competitive game.

IRL you have to react to the fish. Start reeling when it does not pull and stop when it pulls. But in game you always finish a full turn of the crank when you stop. Reeling needs to stop immediately when the mouse button is up.
IRL the hardest part is the last meters to the landing net but in game we don't even have landing nets.
IRL you will not catch 20 big fishes in a single square meter and nothing else 10 meters away from this spot.
IRL when you catch a trophy in one spot you have to find another spot if you want more of them.

#1: +1
#2: +1
#3: Not so much with open water fish such as pelagics, sharks, fast catfish ect... turning them out of that first screaming run and keeping them on their way in during the long haul.
It really depends on what species you're fighting.
#4:+∞ Definatley need drag with labled tension and more precise eg 6.0lb, 6.2lb, 6.4lb... and WAY more reel speed settings. I've never seen a reel with a speed governor...

Total: ∞ + 2

[Junky Juke]

Originally posted by daftpaddy:

I've been spooled a couple of times lately. Once by a pike (pretty sure), the other by a sturgeon. After the initial strike in both cases I didn't reel or do anything, just let the fish go. Both times there was no bend in the rod but the tension meter was in the yellor/orange. The meter also behaves oddly, bouncing up & down like an old 80's graphic equiliser. The fish trundled along till they had 300-400feet of line out, then a big burst of speed (at which point the rod started to bend) till all my line was gone. Boom, fish gone. Nothing I could do about it.

I have landed plenty of big fish, just seems that sometimes you get one like this. TBH I had just put it down to being a bugged fish, but now I am curious to see what everyone else makes of it.

I had the same experience and it seems you pointed to a clear bug. there's something wrong behind the scenes and some bug fixing will help for shure.

About the OP first hypotesis of the equipment weakness.

Talking about match rods I see some strange gap between rods/lines/reels strenght Rods are too strong and we usually end up in a high tension on reel and line and low tension on the rod. Maybe it generates a miscalculation or such. The same leack is present in some casting combination.

Spinning and telescopic rods do not suffer the same plague and there are very cool combos. They are balanced at the point they seem OP ;)

Maybe some stats tweaking on the reels (little boost to max drag) could be the solution.

By example an actual match rod setup (St Patrick DLC and its equivalent store rods) has the following parameters:

IrishClover 300 line weight is 5-16kg
LuckyShamrock 6500 max drag 12 kg
Mono 0.45mm has a test of 11.3kg

The gap between the rod and the line is 4.7 kg and we can't mount a 0.28 braid on it, because it is too strong for the reel.
But increasing the reel max drag to around 14kg we could have a gap of 2,4kg with the result of a well balanced setup with the line as the weakest part of the setup and the possibility to exploit all the 215 meters capacity of the reel (actually is illogically impossible)

I dont think that increasing a reel max drag by a couple of kilograms is somethig hard to do, right? ;)

my 2 euros ;)

[Cpl Tunnel]

if all the tackle can overpower all the fish,it wouldn't be much of a simulator.

I use to get spooled by big fish,but now after a lot of practice it rarely happens.

if the game was too easy there would be no point in having competition.

yes there are still a few bugs,but this is by far the best fishing game that has ever been made.

thanks dev team keep up the great work.

[etienne.bruere]

Originally posted by LevelWinder:

if all the tackle can overpower all the fish,it wouldn't be much of a simulator.

I use to get spooled by big fish,but now after a lot of practice it rarely happens.

if the game was too easy there would be no point in having competition.

The fact that some fishes are too strong for our best tackle does not make the game harder and it has nothing to do with skills and competitions.

IRL you can get overpowered if you use thinner lines, and you need to use thin lines to get more bites. Chosing the right line is a skill.
In game you just use the stronger line and it has no effect on bites. No skill involved.
( You can catch the redear sunfish with 0.28 braid if you want to, it does not make any difference with 0.12 )

[hunterPRO1]

One thing I notice is that the rod tip doesn't bend
I once hooked a 13lb channel cat on 6lb gear irl but my rod still bent... Something is wrong there

The gear we have is going to be ripped to shreds once any bigger fish are introduced. And it's not the gear that's the problem it's something within the system causing the rod action (bend) not to work.

The entire system is kinda messed up especially the uni hotspots and such. Idk why that's there in the first place, when that gets removed (and if it isn't then tournents may as well never happen) people are going to whine about it because they want their "uni farm" back.
The biggest drawback in this game to me is the uni hotspots it always has been since the very first time I figured it out, and I will be jumping up and down when it's gone.

[Junky Juke]

Originally posted by LevelWinder:

if all the tackle can overpower all the fish,it wouldn't be much of a simulator.

I use to get spooled by big fish,but now after a lot of practice it rarely happens.

if the game was too easy there would be no point in having competition.

yes there are still a few bugs,but this is by far the best fishing game that has ever been made.

thanks dev team keep up the great work.

I don't see the point to consider an unbalanced system as an added difficulty level. Losing a fish should be due to bad fish handling or other incidents, like the hated and removed fish snags or the fish unhooking by slow tension on barbless hooks.
Rocket fish ignoring reel tension because of unbalanced stat generation, the rod not correctly bending, the lack of adeguate reel selection for rodsand lines strenght is not a regular game mechanic and the devs should be well aware of those leacks. The game is good in its concept, but it is still far from a polished status and this thread point is to express some feedback about a specific issues. Lets not transform it in a like/dislike thread (there are tons out there) ok? ;)

[sirkipalot]

It could all be cntered around the rod as this is the only equipment that doesn't suffer load stress. Infact I am surprized it wears the same rate as the reel. Indicator never moves much above 1/4 to 1/2 way and the ony time it goes rage red is when your spooled. There is something seriously flawed. If you saw my post "Drag don't work" there is an excellent video by INTIMID883R Showing the exact problem we all face. For all intense of purpose it looks and feels like your reverse reeling on a fish instead of reeling it in.
The rod is central to all that happens this is the shock absorber. it will take a massive load before it is in danger of breaking . There are records IRL that tells us what people catch on and what tackle. Some gear up and some don't with equal effect. Albeit the later has a far tougher time of it. Hard to explain to non anglers but if you do any sport . It is all about the feel of finesse. Rush something or do something too slow. your result suffers. If it sounds like a thumb finger snap. a perfect sound. Then the result barring accidents is the same. That is the skill factor. Having a broken Rod mechanic is going to cause all what we have now.
FYI BS on line is not the same out in the water its tested by lifting a dead weight from the floor. So in a static situation it means 3lb bs don't lift fish out of the water if its 3lb without a net. More importantly the rod is far less forgiving freshwater tackle is 3/4-2.75lb test. same rules applied. its only apparemt on lifting a dead weight. Not a moving fish.And as long as your not fishing with shark line the line will always snap first. Most anglers use main line on reel and esp float anglers bottom line is much thinner. incase of snags etc and if a monster decides to shake you like a rag doll. All you lose is your terminal tackle. Everything above float included will come home safely. These are skills we do not have . I think everyone is on the same page about fixing what needs fixing. But please all the "great game as it is there are no probs" is not helping matters. If you never fished IRL let those who have guide you. Honestly they know what they are talking about.

[Junky Juke]

Sirkipalot you are right. I do the same both on fixed float and bottom fishing. tìThe terminal line is always the weakest part of the tackle. When I go fishing for catfish I use a 0.18 mono as main tacke and 20/30cm of 0.12 mono as terminal tackle so that if I get snagged or I hook a too strong fish it will snap first, saving the rest of the tackle (bobber and leading).

Actually floating is in a primitive status in this game. I would like to see a true simulation of tackle crafting. Having to choose mother tackle, terminal tackle, leading shape and balance and a wide selection of bobbers. Maybe later when Europe will be taken in consideration in the development.

By now we have to rely only on reels, rods and single lines.

[boogadooga]

Originally posted by Junky Juke:

Sirkipalot you are right. I do the same both on fixed float and bottom fishing. tìThe terminal line is always the weakest part of the tackle. When I go fishing for catfish I use a 0.18 mono as main tacke and 20/30cm of 0.12 mono as terminal tackle so that if I get snagged or I hook a too strong fish it will snap first, saving the rest of the tackle (bobber and leading).

Actually floating is in a primitive status in this game. I would like to see a true simulation of tackle crafting. Having to choose mother tackle, terminal tackle, leading shape and balance and a wide selection of bobbers. Maybe later when Europe will be taken in consideration in the development.

By now we have to rely only on reels, rods and single lines.

The float (bait fishing all around) is lacking in mechanics and content :( but i didn't mind the snags if i could tell where they were and it wasnt constantly happening because turning the fish is basically impossible.