All weapons have a role: what Axes and 2-handed-swords are good for

[Pentalis]

So I just finished a game with a new god in Difficult, and I decided to keep playing instead of leaving the game immediately. That's when I noticed "whoa, I had never seen a Dragon Lair before... whoa, why are there 3 of them next to each other?", then I tried attacking one of those Dragon Lairs, and noticed that there was no other fight option than FIGHT. O_o

So I attacked the lair with my 22-man strong army, full mostly of gatherers and other wimpy types because that's how I roll, and I was facing 2 dragons, a Zmey, and an assorted bunch of other nasty things. I ran from the fight, 2 people got mortally wounded when I ran, but the medic kept them alive.

How, with a group containing many characters that have only just 4 strength (200 carrying capacity) can you defeat an encounter like this?.

Well people look no farther than AXES.

Axes are the ultimate single-target damage dealing weapon, no other weapon comes even close, not only because they're pure damage-dealing weapons, but also because no other weapon can be built with Wood and Bone at the same time. Wood and Bone are the strongest weapon materials because their additional stat is not Perception (mithril), Magic (moonstone), Dexterity (silver), Will (gold) or any other, no sir; Ancient Wood gives Poison, and Dragon Bones give Leech, both count as damage.

Stats of a Dragon's Bane, made with 10 Dragon Bones and 6 Ancient Wood:
30 damage
20 leech
10 poison
weight is 130

This axe will hit a dragon for 60 on the first hit, or 70 on the second one, but this is the damage of the axe alone. Generally, if you equip it on a strong character, you will do about 100 damage, but this axe is not for that; the role of this axe is to turn those low-damage characters into viable hitters. You can turn your fatty cook with 3 strength into a damage dealing bomb, and the purpose of this is only one: slay the many dragons and trolls that come in the end game. They will flood the map, and they have a very high HP.
Dragon HP is about 220
Zmey HP is about 180
Big rock Troll HP is about 90

If you don't want to research 2-handed axes, here's a smaller, but still strong, weapon: Dragon Chopper, is made with 7 dragon bones, and 5 ancient wood.
This are the stats:
17 damage
13 leech
7 poison
weight is 95

This weapon's damage is close to HALF the 2-handed version but requires about as many materials, so I really don't recommend it to build a heavy hitter, but if you're short on research points, or you already have top-notch shields and don't want to get 2-handed weapons, or you're on a hurry, do build it. It will hit for 37 on a first strike or 44 on a second one, plus your character's base damage.

Compare this to 2-handed swords, the second most damaging item in the game; Bugay's Revenge, made with 5 Ancient Wood and 5 Moonstone:
25 damage
8 shielding
10 poison
2 magic
weight is 95

Compared to the axe it's not really that strong. But here's the kicker with swords: they DO offer shielding, and they're very light, allowing you to gear even characters with 100 strength limit properly.

I promised other players that I would test 2-handed-swords to see if they were really viable or whether they were just a waste of time. Let me explain why 2-handed swords are still good weapons and that the game's designers knew what they were doing:

2-handed swords are the most versatile of 2-handed weapons, the recipe for building them is this:
5 METAL or 7 WOOD or 6 MINERAL or 6 BONE
4 LEATHER or 5 MINERAL or 5 GEMSTONE or 4 METAL
(catalyst is wood or coal)

You can build two handed weapons using gemstones, don't underestimate this ability (sometimes all you have is amber lying around).
Along with pikes, they are the items requiring the least materials, this impacts their building time (they're faster to craft), their weight (they're light) and of course their impact on your economy (less material usage).
Swords have an amplified secondary effect bonus: you can make 5 magic 2H-swords or 5 stealth 2H-swords, while Hammers go only up to 4 in those stats, even though you need 16 moonstone to make the hammer, and 11 moonstone to make the sword.

The other 3 types of weapons (pikes, hammers, axes) may be better focused, but the 2H-sword is the one item you can build when you need to gear up a crowd fast, specially of wimpy characters, without leaving them unprotected; remember they have about 20 HP with armor on (typically a silky vest) so 8 shielding is about a third of their health!, not to mention they can shield each other in tactical combat to avoid death.
Two handed swords are light, fast to make, balanced, and have an amplified secondary effect, allowing you to, for example, stack magic on your wimpy 100 carrying capacity Medic. This is exactly what I did, I was lucky to have Mithril, Obsidian and Rubies close by (Rubies I gambled by the late game), but I had every other resource far away. I made a bunch of obsidian swords and hammers for the stronger characters (for stealth) and mithril swords for the weak characters. I barely had any leather but I saved the leather armor I looted to equip it on the obsidian-wearing characters, allowing me to accrue enough Sneak to both win sneak challenges and to defend myself in fights (with first action(.


That's all I can say about these weapon types for now. It's not possible to make a balanced army with top-level gear when you're just starting, so you have to decide what to create first. If you are good with math and positioning, matching total HP with your damage so that every enemy dies with 1 hit without wasting damage on overkills, you can win and secure an early advantage using 2 handed swords (this is what I did, it was hard to calculate everything and make no mistakes, but ultimately I didn't lose people even in very tight battles).

PS: hunters RULE.

[Winterclaw42]

I also think some of it depends if you are planning a guy to be a front-liner or a shield ally guy. If you use reptile leather (the second one) your items get bonus sheilding from them. So a guy with a sword and good shield is an excellent tactics guy for blocking damage from your main attackers.

That said, yes I do think that 2h swords and axes have a place.

[Pentalis]

Originally posted by Winterclaw42:

I also think some of it depends if you are planning a guy to be a front-liner or a shield ally guy. If you use reptile leather (the second one) your items get bonus sheilding from them. So a guy with a sword and good shield is an excellent tactics guy for blocking damage from your main attackers.

That said, yes I do think that 2h swords and axes have a place.

Ah yes, it's possible to stack over 20 shielding this way. That's a lot of shielding o_O

[Lampros]

I really see only 3 choices still, and I have experimented with all of them - albeit at a low level play.

2H hammer or spear for melee damage and 1H sword for the squishies.

[Ex Mudder]

I tend not to use axes, as I prefer hammers or spears.

But I do like 2H swords for several reasons:

1) They are good beginner weapons that combine attack and defense, and don't require you to mix and match shields. I used them a lot my first few games as I leaned the ropes. Add in a bow or a ranged damage god, and you can play with support attack and shield ally.

2) They are also easy to craft, even a wooden sword has good shielding if poor damage. The poor damage can be somewhat offset by Darkwood's Poison damage. But you can make them out of bone, wood, metal, stone, and can even use fur and gems to finish them off. Useful in the early game when you will have a bunch of random stuff and need to boost RPs while keeping your villagers alive. Also lets you experiment with various items and strategies. Later on, they are a useful way to burn the random stuff you get from wells and encounters and to boost RPs when you run out of your preferred resource.

3) You can use Gems for random bonuses and to keep weight down. Better gems mean better stats for the sword: Malachite and Topaz boost stats plus granting a random, Amber doesn't boost stats (same as leather), and Ruby and Diamond have other uses. In fact, if you read between the lines, you can use Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H.

4) Great for low str characters - crafters, medics, sages, witches. A sword or 2H sword will often allow a gathering basket, amber charm, silk shirt, and bow, or a crafting hammer, and boost defences while providing some offense.

That being said, after a playthrough where I avoided researching 2H swords, most of this can be done with 1 handed swords, and the 1H swords leave a space free that says "squishy with no strength" that 2H swords don't. Damage is lower, which is one of the reasons I love Darkwood for the poison damage. Death by 1000 cuts :)

Once I get better armor, and characters with higher strength, I am often willing to give up my shielding in favor of 2H damage dealers.

[Pentalis]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I really see only 3 choices still, and I have experimented with all of them - albeit at a low level play.

2H hammer or spear for melee damage and 1H sword for the squishies.

It depends a lot on playstyle, but both hammers and spears are dangerous for the squishy characters, so you gotta make some armor for them. 2h-swords paid off in rapid gearing of new citizens for me, very good secondary bonuses too (+5 stealth was great).

[ilikemadeupnames]

Originally posted by Ex Mudder:

I tend not to use axes, as I prefer hammers or spears.

But I do like 2H swords for several reasons:

1) They are good beginner weapons that combine attack and defense, and don't require you to mix and match shields. I used them a lot my first few games as I leaned the ropes. Add in a bow or a ranged damage god, and you can play with support attack and shield ally.

2) They are also easy to craft, even a wooden sword has good shielding if poor damage. The poor damage can be somewhat offset by Darkwood's Poison damage. But you can make them out of bone, wood, metal, stone, and can even use fur and gems to finish them off. Useful in the early game when you will have a bunch of random stuff and need to boost RPs while keeping your villagers alive. Also lets you experiment with various items and strategies. Later on, they are a useful way to burn the random stuff you get from wells and encounters and to boost RPs when you run out of your preferred resource.

3) You can use Gems for random bonuses and to keep weight down. Better gems mean better stats for the sword: Malachite and Topaz boost stats plus granting a random, Amber doesn't boost stats (same as leather), and Ruby and Diamond have other uses. In fact, if you read between the lines, you can use Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H.

4) Great for low str characters - crafters, medics, sages, witches. A sword or 2H sword will often allow a gathering basket, amber charm, silk shirt, and bow, or a crafting hammer, and boost defences while providing some offense.

That being said, after a playthrough where I avoided researching 2H swords, most of this can be done with 1 handed swords, and the 1H swords leave a space free that says "squishy with no strength" that 2H swords don't. Damage is lower, which is one of the reasons I love Darkwood for the poison damage. Death by 1000 cuts :)

Once I get better armor, and characters with higher strength, I am often willing to give up my shielding in favor of 2H damage dealers.

I rarely craft 2H swords because I seem to find them everywhere. Like you say, they make good beginner and low-STR weapons. If a character has enough STR, I go for sword-n-board initially, then throw in a mix of 2H hammers or 2H axes (depending on resources). When I first started playing, I found spears very useful, but as I've learned the mechanics, I've found that the pierce effect is considerably outdone by using First Action on some seriously heavy hitters.

[Pentalis]

Originally posted by Ex Mudder:

3) You can use Gems for random bonuses and to keep weight down. Better gems mean better stats for the sword: Malachite and Topaz boost stats plus granting a random, Amber doesn't boost stats (same as leather), and Ruby and Diamond have other uses. In fact, if you read between the lines, you can use Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H.

Could you elaborate on this?, Ruby and Diamond have other uses, Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H?

[ilikemadeupnames]

Originally posted by Pentalis:

Originally posted by Ex Mudder:

3) You can use Gems for random bonuses and to keep weight down. Better gems mean better stats for the sword: Malachite and Topaz boost stats plus granting a random, Amber doesn't boost stats (same as leather), and Ruby and Diamond have other uses. In fact, if you read between the lines, you can use Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H.

Could you elaborate on this?, Ruby and Diamond have other uses, Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H?

Gems give a random bonus when used to craft items. Sometimes that bonus can be extraordinary.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by ilikemadeupnames:

Originally posted by Pentalis:

Could you elaborate on this?, Ruby and Diamond have other uses, Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H?

Gems give a random bonus when used to craft items. Sometimes that bonus can be extraordinary.

Indeed, I've had 45 ranged damage on one item. Other highlights include 15 damage, 15 shielding, and 5 medic.

[Ex Mudder]

Originally posted by Pentalis:

Could you elaborate on this?, Ruby and Diamond have other uses, Topaz on 1H and Malachite on 2H?

Ruby is used for +medic jewelry and amulets.

Amber Jewelry for +2 craft / +1 gather.

Diamonds are awesome, check the wiki.

Topaz and Malchite... on some weapons, they give you the same stats, on some Topaz is better. For Dark Wood, both have a 7/7 2H, but 4/6 vs 4/7 for a 1H sword. Was more of a "be careful" than an actual strategy.