Are resources actually diverse enough?

[Alive]

I'm only about 100 hours into the game, but there are some materials that I'd never consider researching because they seem to be, well, not worth it. For instance, the game doesn't seem to provide any real insentive for me to research clay or vines.
I might be missing out on amazing gains by simply not being adventurous enough, but I don't feel like I am. At least not anymore. I know I missed out on some attract values in my first games since I didn't know that gold was used to attract dwarves and so on (or that attract was a thing for that matter), but that's about it.

I don't think I've ever put any points into the gem tree either since you practically swim in lower-tier gems anyway (especially Amber), and the points needed to reach higher tiers seem wasted when the returns are of unpredictable value. I know they are useful for research points, but to the extend of actually teching for them? Not feeling it.

I might be completely in the wrong here though. It might be that those materials are so much more abundant than others that they are worth it in a 300%, slow game and that Dark Wood, Vines, Cane, Clay, Fur Leather and gems actually are amazing resources and I just haven't noticed yet.

I'd love to hear your opinions on the matter.

Edit: Added Fur Leather

[Darmondmazual]

well from my experience so far ... I would agree with you actually only exception being Diamonds as for some armors and shields they add good stat bonuses and give the random chance of an enchantment, however I am not fond of how the enchanting system currently works as it does feel too random lol (I have done a post before about that but it was buried long ago lol)
I think so far the only material tree I fully expand would be bone as magical bones do have a use over dragon bones and even once you get moonstone, magical bones I believe are still better for some things meanwhile dragon bones are stronger than magical bones for a lot of stuff but since magical bones grants magic.
so to sum it up other then bones I do not find any use really to any of the side materials even gold as the chance to attract dwarfs is too small to make a difference

[Tuidjy]

There are some materials that are not worth it, for example steel which sits on a dead branch, while being inferior to silver, and vines which have only a few, infinitesimal benefits over the trivial to accumulate spider silk.

But you are wrong about many other materials:

Dark wood is absolutely useful because of its poison, and because it leads to ancient wood.

The right diamond enchantments on an already good mithril shield or armor can turn an OK character into a A-team powerhouse.

Magic bones are insanely useful. You can turn a lowly worker into a mage, with the right gear, and having the ability to break hexes open some very useful paths.

And do not underestimate the importance of crafting for research... not so much on 250-300% difficulty, where you usually win or lose before you have time to waste on non-essential crafting, but at the lower difficulties where you can enjoy equipping your A-team so that they eat dragons for breakfast.

On the really high difficulties, I am more likely to research a material for the 5 free stacks rather than because I expect to gather any. At 250%, with a small world, you can expect that some of the materials will be easily accessible. At 300%, I think that I have only bother gathering dragon bones (from the high end materials) and that because they spawned in a very convenient place when I researched them for the 5 free ones.

[Alive]

Dark Wood doesn't lead to ancient wood. Elven Wood does.

And while diamonds can provide some really nifty enchantments, I still don't really see them as being worth teching for unless I'm steamrolling a game.

I mean, in your case you have to start off by spending points getting to mithril and shields to first. Is it worth spending the 4 (5? out of the game atm) points to get to diamonds for buffs of varying usefulness? Would another material not be prefered? Or a new crafting recipes? And if you're gonna get those things first, along with whatever you usually unlock to get going (Wicker anyone?), isn't there a pretty good chance that you'd have a few lying around from quests and drops anyway. Sure, it might not be enough to deck out your entire village in Mithril/Diamond shields, but still.

I completely understand that Enchanted Bones can be worth it for their somewhat unique magic buff, which is why I didn't list them among the (imo) useless materials, but others just doesn't seem worth it.
Like Vine. For all I know, vines only serve to fill a weight niche where you get a little bit more armour, in exchange for a slightly heavier piece of clothing, but let's be real here. Who's gonna tech for min-maxing <20 weight points worth of stats?

Other than providing an interesting learning experience for new players -- and that certainly shouldn't be looked down upon as unimportant -- I just don't see the use for these materials.

[Tuidjy]

The only research I consider 100% necessary is staff->spear, cabbage patch, and watchtower. The ones that are under 'nice' are light->medium armor, wicker, silver, and enchanted bones. Everything else is gravy. But lets face it, you do end up with a ton of research points if you are clearing lairs, and if you have a few crafters at home.

Before I gave up on leveling all gods, I played 3 games at 210, 250, and 300 for enough turns to run out of useful recipes to unlock. So there is always enough research point to get a few resources, especially if you enjoy experimenting with a game that is already won... I've had a A-team comprised of two 'mages' over 20 magic, a liho and six elves with battleaxes, and three guys who could confuse/trap dragons. It would not have been as gratifying if it had not been for the high end materials.

So, while I agree that steel and wine can use a bit of a boost, I do not think that there are all that many useless materials.

[MarkJerue]

For my typical games I simply end up starved for time. By the time you start seeing the high-level encounters, you need to wrap up the game - fast. Otherwise, the mobs can steamroll you.

Thus I rarely end up having the ability to do more research beyond my usuals. It's a shame, really. I'm hoping that Perun (just got him to level 3 this evening) will let me experiment somewhat.

[sikker]

I disagree with steel being useless. If I have 20 steel I will often research it for the 5 extra so I can make a building with orc attract. Silver can't do that. I've done the same with clay but since that one has really bad attract I will agree that it is a bad way to spend a RP for the long term especially, but for short term it can be somewhat useful.

The weak materials that don't have any attract like fur leather or vines are pretty useless and I don't see any reason to research them ever. It's interesting how in these kind of threads people only talk about the useless materials, never about the crafts. Has anyone researched baked or roasted meals for anything other then the achievement? I really don't see the point.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by sikker_1:

Has anyone researched baked or roasted meals for anything other then the achievement? I really don't see the point.

Sometimes it is hard to get to nine/ten foods without unlocking one of the advanced cooking recipes. Considering how silly powerful the last few bonuses are, an extra recipe is not much to spend.

I have never ended a game because I was swamped. If you clear the lairs quickly enough, and gear up your A-team for the best paths through events, you can handle even a 5 skull dragon squad with no risk.

[Alive]

I have researched the foods out of curiosity before, and actually find it pretty useful to ensure a steady supply of varied foods. Mostly roasted meals though, but still.

Like Tuidjy said, the bonuses for doing it are pretty bonkers.

[aardvarkpepper]

Originally posted by Hentaicho:

I might be completely in the wrong here though. It might be that those materials are so much more abundant than others that they are worth it in a 300%, slow game and that Dark Wood, Vines, Cane, Clay, Fur Leather and gems actually are amazing resources and I just haven't noticed yet.

A lotta stuff that's normally garbage is worth researching on higher levels just for the +5 item bonus. Like Steel, okay mostly garbage but it's still a second-tier metal, still puts out stuff that's lightweight and does damage (or shields and is lightweight whatever). So yeah worth thinking about.

Any material as noted by another poster you pump into research.

Dark Wood offers attraction bonuses I think maybe. Generally yeah you don't research it but it is really useful for making decent weight equipment that often does poison.

Vines and Cane you don't screw with unless you're sort of on a bump with gathering tools. You CAN research them, though, given right conditions on nastier difficulties. It doesn't even have to be 300%, you turn economy insane and reality on and your resource income is messed up, so you have to do stuff. So yeah what do I mean on a bump? Nimblewood-spidersilk gives +5 gathering, that's worth preserving. So if you have wicker and you want something to hit +4 (you'll never hit 5 with wicker anyways), vines are an option. &c &c.

Clay is whatever, I don't know that you even can research that, don't you start with it?

Fur Leather often you don't research, but it's ridiculously useful, so it *can* be one of those things you branch into, a lot more than vines or cane. If I remember right it boosts Dexterity or Stealth which leads to valuable Tactical actions, plus it can be used for Gathering Tools, plus on some maps you just don't have Leather (if it's a small map anyways), so do you really want to research scaled leather as a catalyst? nope. When used in one-hand swords it often gives a higher Shielding bonus than Scaled Leather if I remember right, there's just a lot of small ways that Fur Leather is useful.

Gems hooo wow no, yeah those things you research. Amber trinkets impart Concentration, +2 gathering, +1 Crafting. Malachite's sort of a second tier whatever but even so you use it with other medium tier materials to get maybe a one-hand sword with a random bonus, and when that random bonus is Gathering or Crafting then hey wow. But even stuff like Medic or Magic or Strength is not shabby, and if it's Sturdiness or something whatever then it's still more than nothing. Ruby's used with Dragon Bone for top tier shielding one-hand leech sword with high Shielding bonus, Topaz is generally quite strong though better used for - was it staves? pikes? I forget, and of course Diamond is for your high bonuses and minimal weight, you do mithril-diamond heavy armor or mithril-diamond shield on lower difficulties (not higher because you just can't bring in that amount of resources for a long time) and that's your best lightest armor that gives you some huge bonus in something too. Yeah you lose a few points of armor but so what?

Seriously well yeah you know you might do pikes or one-hand swords or medium armors or whatever before gems, but you do not ignore the bonuses that gems can give you. Got too many gems? Is that even possible? You do monster bone and malachite maybe and make a bunch of one-hand swords that have Sturdiness or whatever, say you don't want them, you don't need them, you still got Research off those - then you can recycle them to get more bones and gems and just build more, maybe the new ones will have those sweet bonuses you really want. But you can use like infinite gems practically, it's just like when would you ever not want gems.

[aardvarkpepper]

Originally posted by Hentaicho:

I have researched the foods out of curiosity before, and actually find it pretty useful to ensure a steady supply of varied foods. Mostly roasted meals though, but still.

Like Tuidjy said, the bonuses for doing it are pretty bonkers.

If I remember right roasted foods go through like 5 meat at a time. That's just like . . . ugh. Think you can use grains too, but that's what you use it for basically.

But usually you try to hit 10 foods using mostly stuff from the basic food tree, it's just more efficient in terms of material spent.

it's like okay maybe you can't make it to 10 on that alone, but throw in some nuts or basic vegetables and that usually gets you up there. burning through food with less efficient recipies is something to avoid when you can.

[Alive]

I was looking at some things and found another point to use as an example. Keep in mind that I haven't tested all its properties, I just noticed the one and thought of this thread again.

Originally posted by Wood:

Regular wood. With a bit of effort it can be crafted into something useful. Or burned for fuel.

Originally posted by Sandstone:

Yellowish rock, composed mainly of sand-sized minerals or rock grains. Suitable as a construction material.

Wanna know the difference it makes when building a 25 material building like a pasture or watchtower? It adds to its weight. Unless there's some hidden "more resilient to storm encounters"-type thing hidden in the code, that's it.

It gives a little bit of benefit when used in stacks of 40. In the case of a Wood/Sandstone palisade, it provides 2 Def. and 1 Beast Att. contra Wood/Wood for 1 Def.

Considering their respective abundance, this makes no sense to me. At all. I mean, come on. You start with Wood 95% of the time. To top it off, Sandstone can't even be used for weapons (AFAIK). It's more or less a unburnable piece of wood, which only serves as a roadblock for the rest of the rock types.

Why isn't it buffed to have a purpose in the game? A purpose which, oh I dunno, serves its description?

The way I see it, this effectively reduces the count of useful materials even further. I mean, when are you ever gonna gather it? Never.
On the contrary. I actually dump it to spend my carrying capacity on useful things.

*edited post to make more sense. Original was written in a bit of a hurry.

[aardvarkpepper]

Higher difficulties make it a better idea to get diverse materials if you can.

Like if you're on 300% and you're away from home, if there's sandstone on the way home you pick it up. Because it means you might not have to use wood later.

On lower difficulties, you put a gatherer 18 or something on wood, and you get like 4 packs of wood a turn plus leftover, so you're usually pretty good on wood. But on higher difficulties, you burn through wood real fast for food, it's more trouble to gather, etc etc etc.

Which is yeah well sandstone is pretty much still blah whatever though.

[Alive]

Even in your example, I can't see it as being worth it. Wood is literally everywhere, so it will always be 'on your way home', and it serves multiple purposes. Sitting by Sandstone for 1 turn is not gonna yield a useful amount anyway, so aren't you better off by detouring slightly to get a useful and diverse material?

[David]

You're not wrong, many of the resources have useability concerns. I think it's mostly due to flaws in the research or gathering paradigm than the resource itself. Dark wood, for example, is a perfectly reasonable early game weapon and armor component. If it were a base resource, I expect I would even gather a little for weapons. Researching it, however, is not worth the tech point.

You wonder if 300% salavges dark wood, clay, etc? It does not. on 300%, you don't really gather at all. Your resources come from fighting stuff, and movement events.

Sandstone and vines need to be buffed, but the other lost resources mostly just need a reduction in opportunity cost. Like, if dark wood and elven wood were a combined tech 'tier 2 wood', you'd see a lot more dark wood getting gathered. Ditto furred and scaled leather. Furred leather gives the pretty excellent Dexterity stat -- but so does regular leather. So why dead end a tech point for a small, nonfinal upgrade that you have a substitute for?