The Top 4 Reasons not to Fight

[plockets]

It seems a lot of people get hung up on Fight challenges in this game. Having put something like 500 hours in this game, I can tell you it is a major mistake to purposefully engage in nearly any Fights. Here are the top 4 reasons why:

1) Fight is unique among the challenges, because any wounds taken remain after the challenge is over. This means that you should have a really good reason to risk those wounds, when so many nonlethal alternatives are readily available.

2) Contrary to what Theodore says, Fight challenges do NOT give better rewards. I repeat, Fighting gives WORSE rewards than most other challenge types. In order of reward, the best Challenge types (in my experience) are Hex, Hunt, and then Sneak, with most others being roughly the same or worse than Fight. That said, events are an entirely different beast than a monster encounter, and sometimes Fighting gives the better rewards there, depending on the event (Slavers is one that comes to mind).

3) With the exception of Social, non Fight challenges are the only way to safely beat a megastack with a smaller expedition. This is because Challenges other than Fight/Social replace the units in the enemy group with a preset number of generic "Challenge" cards in the combat, based on the number of skulls: 2/4/7/10/13 cards for 1/2/3/4/5+ skulls. For example, if your expedition has 12 villagers (or you are playing 12 max), you could turn a Fight against a 5 skull stack of 30+ cultists into a Sneak against a 5 skull stack of 13 generic Sneak cards. I shouldn't really have to explain what a big deal that is, but it gets even better, since the generic challenge cards usually do not have the super high damage and/or health that some of the "special" opponents (Giants, Zmey, etc) would get on their card in a Fight or Social challenge.

4) Because of #1, it is MUCH safer to use Autoresolve on a non Fight challenge. Having learned the hard way, I rarely use Autoresolve on a Fight challenge, except when against opponents who I know cannot hit for much damage. However, I still do roughly 75% of my Challenges via Autoresolve, because I so rarely engage in an actual Fight, and I now have a pretty good feel for my relative strength in Hex/Hunt/Sneak/Social challenges (I rarely do Tactics/Physical/Sickness/Intellect). Mostly the only unavoidable Fights are from being ambushed at night, or from a few quests/events without a non Fight alternative.

So, in summary, make Hex/Hunt/Sneak, not Fight! And when you are forced to fight, do NOT forget about the "Forfeit" button in the upper right. You will usually suffer fewer wounds/deaths from a Forfeit than you would from a close victory (and let's not even talk about a loss), so I generally choose to forfeit even on Fights when I would probably eke out a victory. You do need to beware of certain opponents and Events when Forfeiting though, as they can have special nasty things that happen when you lose (Giants, Dragons, Zmey, among others), so Forfeit against them is a much less appealing option.

[Lonetac]

Im about 100 hours into the game and i largely agree. Fighting is overrated but you are forced into it quite often.

Hex is the best, hands down. When you win a hex challenge you get a TON of loot compared to any other resolution ive seen.

Also, AutoResolve works well most of the time for fighting but you have to pay attention to what you are fighting. I find that autoresolve against undead (dwarfs too), even when have an overwhelming majority, ends up in someone getting wounds for some reason. But if its a spider or some other beast mob, autoresolve works quite well.

Good write up though.

[plockets]

Originally posted by Lonetac:

Also, AutoResolve works well most of the time for fighting but you have to pay attention to what you are fighting. I find that autoresolve against undead (dwarfs too), even when have an overwhelming majority, ends up in someone getting wounds for some reason. But if its a spider or some other beast mob, autoresolve works quite well.

That is pretty much what I meant when I said I rarely Auto Fights "except when against opponents who I know cannot hit for much damage."

There is another thread with more detail, but basically consider Autoresolve to be just playing your guys in order from best to worst, against a randomly played lineup of the enemy, with neither side using any Tactics. Since your best few units are always first to be played, and might randomly get a strong enemy played in front of them, they are generally the ones most likely to take heavy wounds during an Autoresolve. Those are wounds you would almost never take outside of Auto, because First Action is incredibly OP in the hands of a competent human, but doesn't get used in an Auto.

[Lonetac]

Counter offense, First action, counter tactics are completely win in that order imo. You can overcome some insane obsticales using those skills in battle.

[plockets]

Hmm, I actually find the Counters to be mostly useless in tough Challenges, which makes me feel they are worthless in general. The levels of your tougher opponents are a moving target you can never really catch with your best available gear, until they shoot past any possibility of being affected into the 20's. I started a thread about the topic a while ago here. In my experience, a Counter usually just fizzles in an actually hard Challenge, costing you an early spot in the line, as well as a card that could have been put into line somewhere else to absorb a hit or two and maybe even deal a hit in return.

[Lampros]

I generally agree with OP, but I will add one qualification that Fight Challenges become very easy to auto-resolve once when you have very good gear and 2 villagers with extremely high-level Medic skill. In fact, at that point, auto-resolves become even more "automatic" with Fight Challenges than Sneak Challenges in my experience (I mention Sneak, because it's the only non-Fight Challenge v. Giants that work).

[killerbroesel]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I generally agree with OP, but I will add one qualification that Fight Challenges become very easy to auto-resolve once when you have very good gear and 2 villagers with extremely high-level Medic skill. In fact, at that point, auto-resolves become even more "automatic" with Fight Challenges than Sneak Challenges in my experience (I mention Sneak, because it's the only non-Fight Challenge v. Giants that work).

Why two villagers? One for the village, one for the expedition? I think I read somewhere that only the highest medic skill in the group counts?

[Lampros]

Originally posted by kleinerposer:

Originally posted by Lampros:

I generally agree with OP, but I will add one qualification that Fight Challenges become very easy to auto-resolve once when you have very good gear and 2 villagers with extremely high-level Medic skill. In fact, at that point, auto-resolves become even more "automatic" with Fight Challenges than Sneak Challenges in my experience (I mention Sneak, because it's the only non-Fight Challenge v. Giants that work).

Why two villagers? One for the village, one for the expedition? I think I read somewhere that only the highest medic skill in the group counts?

It's elaborated in several threads that talk about Medic formula. But the gist of it is that you need either 1 villager of Medic skill 31 or 2 villagers of Medic 21 each. Now, 1 villager doesn't work in practice, because it is virtually impossible to get Medic skill that high - even with ideal level-up/Events luck and max Medic gear. Even Medic 21 is hard, but possible in medium to long games.

Edit: I used to play long games of 1200-1500 turn games (now I play 6-800 turn games), and I've never had a Medic reach Medic 31; the highest was 27. I suppose 31 is possible, but you'd need to play such a long game, and everything would need to fall in place. And in normal-length games with normal luck, it just isn't possible.

[plockets]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I generally agree with OP, but I will add one qualification that Fight Challenges become very easy to auto-resolve once when you have very good gear and 2 villagers with extremely high-level Medic skill. In fact, at that point, auto-resolves become even more "automatic" with Fight Challenges than Sneak Challenges in my experience (I mention Sneak, because it's the only non-Fight Challenge v. Giants that work).

I hardly ever play without Bloodbath, so Autoresolving a fight would never be safe for me against the hardest hitting enemies. Even 2* 20 skill medics will not save someone who takes twice their health in wounds (that would be 230%-80%-40% = 110% chance to die).

[crassus]

I have picked up lethal wounds from non-fight challenge failures.

One of the big negatives of this game is trying to figure out the match up chances of the various challenge types.

And autoresolve is just awful.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by plockets:

Originally posted by Lampros:

I generally agree with OP, but I will add one qualification that Fight Challenges become very easy to auto-resolve once when you have very good gear and 2 villagers with extremely high-level Medic skill. In fact, at that point, auto-resolves become even more "automatic" with Fight Challenges than Sneak Challenges in my experience (I mention Sneak, because it's the only non-Fight Challenge v. Giants that work).

I hardly ever play without Bloodbath, so Autoresolving a fight would never be safe for me against the hardest hitting enemies. Even 2* 20 skill medics will not save someone who takes twice their health in wounds (that would be 230%-80%-40% = 110% chance to die).

At certain point, I auto-resolve everything with Bloodbath on, and I never die - regardless of who I am facing. I don't know the precise math, but if your fighting force all has Mithril heavy armor, they will likely have enough to negate any kind of hit. Of course, getting there takes a while, so we are talking strictly late-game.

[plockets]

Originally posted by crassus:

I have picked up lethal wounds from non-fight challenge failures.

This is certainly true, but the point was that the "wounds" taken DURING a non Fight go away afterwards. And while losing a non Fight can still be painful, losing a Fight is far worse. ;)

[plockets]

Originally posted by Lampros:

At certain point, I auto-resolve everything with Bloodbath on, and I never die - regardless of who I am facing. I don't know the precise math, but if your fighting force all has Mithril heavy armor, they will likely have enough to negate any kind of hit. Of course, getting there takes a while, so we are talking strictly late-game.

The math is pretty easy: take the size of the wound (so someone at -20 with 10 health, has a size 30 wound), divide by their health (NOT armor), and subtract 0.7. So someone at -20 of 10 health has a 30/10 - 0.7 = 230% chance to die.

In the later game, even your weaker guys have health in the 20's which helps a great deal to survive larger wounds: that same 30 health wound on a 30 health villager is only a 30% chance to die, which takes a single skill 8 medic to negate.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by plockets:

The math is pretty easy: take the size of the wound (so someone at -20 with 10 health, has a size 30 wound), divide by their health (NOT armor), and subtract 0.7. So someone at -20 of 10 health has a 30/10 - 0.7 = 230% chance to die.

In the later game, even your weaker guys have health in the 20's which helps a great deal to survive larger wounds: that same 30 health wound on a 30 health villager is only a 30% chance to die, which takes a single skill 8 medic to negate.

I am pretty sure armor does factor in, because I've had -104 HP from a battle and survived. I am not sure if that's possible without armor factored in. Someone did empirical tests and confirmed armor is indeed factored in, I believe.

[plockets]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I am pretty sure armor does factor in, because I've had -104 HP from a battle and survived. I am not sure if that's possible without armor factored in. Someone did empirical tests and confirmed armor is indeed factored in, I believe.

Interesting. I either misremembered which was used in the formula posted by the devs, or they misstated it themselves (or possibly even changed it with the Heavy armor buffs?). Either way, that would explain why I recently had a few villagers survive what I thought were 80% fatal wounds. And it also makes heavier armors WAAAAAY more appealing that I thought they were.

edit: Hmm, that might also mean you can GREATLY increase the chance of someone surviving a heavy wound by putting them in the best armor they can carry after taking the wound, which seems a bit silly and gamey. :(

further edit: It is remotely possible to survive from -104 HP without armor being in the formula, it would just generally require RIDICULOUS high health and equally ridiculous medics. For example with 70 health and 2* 25 skill medics, that would be a 184/70 - 0.7 - 1.5 = 98.6% chance to die.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by plockets:

Interesting. I either misremembered which was used in the formula posted by the devs, or they misstated it themselves (or possibly even changed it with the Heavy armor buffs?). Either way, that would explain why I recently had a few villagers survive what I thought were 80% fatal wounds. And it also makes heavier armors WAAAAAY more appealing that I thought they were.

edit: Hmm, that might also mean you can GREATLY increase the chance of someone surviving a heavy wound by putting them in the best armor they can carry after taking the wound, which seems a bit silly and gamey. :(

I recall back when folks were complaining that there was no need to bother researching heavy arnor and that Mithril was literally a luxury resource you don't need. Since, then it seems like the pendulum swung the other way, and I tend to try to get literally everyone in Mithril heavy armor - or whatever that's heaviest that I can afford and the villager can bear. The current situation may also represent an imbalance, but this is preferable to the old imbalance, as it's more realistic - among other reasons.