Infuriating

[WatSim]

I'm somewhat of a veteran FM player. Sad to say I have thousands of hours in the bag. Played 1300+ hours on FM15 which had its flaws, like all game, no matter what the genre do. But I've never come so close to raging over an FM game as I have with FM16.

I'm currently at the beginning of my 5th season with Peterborough, 3rd season in the Prem. All sounds pretty good. Decent success rate so far, but I feel like never playing this game again.

There is a total lack of any tactical logic to this game IMO. As I have stated in my intro to this thread, I've got a lot of experience in playing this game series. So I'm not just moaning about my team conceding too many goals, or a silly amount of injuries, or dominating pssession and never scoring. Those are all minor things that frustrate everyone at some point. (it's a part of the game)

My issue is that the game seems to to counteract whatever in-game tactical changes I make incredibly quickly. To the point where it's exhausting and not enjoyable at all. For example, 30mins into the game, the opposition are on top. More possession, they've had a few half chances, my team isn't creating much at all. I make some quick changes to either exploit them on the counter or wrestle back some control of the game. (all depends on the opponent and the strengths of my team) These changes usually (not always) yield some instant success. But this is a very short term victory it seems. Because the opponent seems to adjust tactic and counteract my adjustment within 10 in-game minutes, and my team will be getting dominated again. I've found the only way to get any sustained success, is to be regularly pausing the game,(very tiresome) making endless tactical tweaks (interesting at first, but incredibly frustrating when done game after game) just to get any modicum of success.

I like that FM16 seems to require more user input than past versions. But much like the broken missed penalty ratio in the beta for FM16 compared to FM15 where they were pretty much never missed. It's too much. The game has gone from being extremely chilled out and relaxing. To the point where it could become boring. To endlessly frustrating, energy sapping and not enjoyable. Find a balance between these teo extremes, and I think SI will have nailed it. But right now. I hate this game!

[mimizukari]

so.... doing more is bad? I like that you need to have more input... let's you play more than just sitting back and watching.

also 10 in game minutes? some of us play full match or comprehensive, may as well be 10 real minutes, plenty of time for opposition to see your strategy changed.

[EddyDeWallyvis]

I agree. FM16 seems to revolve around the bigger teams to much. Playing with smaller teams that don't have much money and can't have tactical versatility without subsituting 3-4 players, is pretty much unplayable.

[RobOda]

I think it is just too much hassle thesedays, there seems to be three groups of players:

1. The 'experts' (including mod on the forums etc)

They can play whatever they like, they know the match engine and tactics creator inside and out. They probably read the big book of tactical theories that was released way back when the game got stupidly complex. You'll often identify them by their comments on 'how easy' the game is.

2. The "just get on with it" players.

They'll probably slap on a 4-2-3-1, with the team they love and an absolutely ridiculous tactic, that has no right to work. Yet, they'll win, probably a lot. You'll see them posting screenshots of their big wins, they'll make tactics with 25+ shots and brute forces the opposition to win the game. Sometimes you have to wonder if they hit 'reload game', but lets give them the benefit of the doubt. These guys after all, have the most fun.

3. The "I want to learn, but screw this" crowd.

Everyone else, who is trying to make sensible tactics and getting caught in the infuriating language being employed by the game. "Counter" is for when you expect not to have possession, yet "Counter" and "Defensive" are the two best mentalities for possession football. (I know, right.) And the frustration continues, because no matter what these people do, if they eventually seek help from the experts, who deride them because it's such an 'easy' game, they're eventually told to look at threads containing bibilical amounts of information on how mentalities, roles and duties all work.

So you either get it... Or you don't. So you stop playing, you become an expert, or you say 'screw it' and you 'get on with it', slapping on some ridiculous tactic and winning everything, or winning a lot anyway, cos the hassle just isn't worth it.

I've said this multiple times on the official forums, but y'know, they don't think it is an issue - all the information is in the game, which is fine, except translating and understanding that information is the problem, and for that, they with no sense of irony whatsoever, say to read some technical manual. Hrm...

And for the record, me? I'm in group 4 :P I find the game easy, but I have no idea how I'm doing it. >_>

[Ivo Shandor]

Ridiculous tactic for me!!

[76561198258510719]

Robref, some quite interesting feedback on how you see the playerbase. If you can think of ways we could explain the tactical side of the match engine better could you please raise them {LINK REMOVED}here as I'd be interested to see your ideas. :)

[RobOda]

Originally posted by Dunc Greenwood:

Robref, some quite interesting feedback on how you see the playerbase. If you can think of ways we could explain the tactical side of the match engine better could you please raise them here[community.sigames.com] as I'd be interested to see your ideas. :)

I don't really enjoy the official forums anymore, because it just feels so defensive at times.

Personally, I think there needs to be a tactics tutorial, either as a stand alone and optional part of the game that people can access before starting a new game, or as part of the coaching badges system - The lower badges teaching the basic concepts and the higher badges teaching the more advanced concepts.

You can even 'split' the lessons, for example the C license could teach you about mentalities, or the very basics of defending, of pivots and the formations and roles and duties and how they interact. The higher badges could be teaching more advanced concepts, more bizarre formations and so on.

I shouldn't have to be going to the official tactics forums to understand 'mentality', I shouldn't be getting told that a possession game is better done with a defensive/counter mentality when the in-game description for almost every mentality (except control and to a lesser extent counter) implies that the style of play will be direct-football.

In fact, Control mentality reads like the most 'risk free' version of possession football, and yet if the Tactics forums are anything to go by, it favours fast, risky, direct passes - Counter is the mentality that appears more conductive for possession, because if there is no counter attacking 'phase' to trigger, they aim to keep the ball (just as 'risk free' as in the decription of Control.)

I guess, I feel much more strongly about being more user-friendly this year, because my nephew has finally come of age, and the first game he wanted to play was Football Manager, as he's a rabid football fan and he's grown up watching me grow up on it (I was introduced to CM 2 by my uncle, long long time ago! So family tradition!)

Watching him play via Steam, I was just so amused to find him falling into every newbie trap that is highlighted on the official forums. He went super-attacking, he distributed roles haphazardly (auto roles and such) and he would have been player type number 2, but then he was daft enough to ask me for help and it went along the lines of;

"I win, but it isn't convincing and that's not right for me." (Which, in my opinion is a fantastic opinion to hold at 16, not being satisfied with wobbly games and showing an interest in figuring out how to overcome it.)

But what were the tools available for him to deal with that? Prozone? Time? - How is he expect to understand Prozone, if he generally doesn't know what to look for? And if he identifies a problem, how does he figure out how to solve that problem?

Myself, the mods on the forums (the experts), we've been playing the game for a while, we have some understanding of what to spot and how to fix it, either from the tactical discussions going on, or just being lucky enough to have that knowledge/intelligence to deal with it.

My nephew? He's fresh to FM, it is likely the first time he's actually dealt with anything tactical (and he's English, and we all know the English and tactics is sometimes a poor blend! ;) ) he simply doesn't know how or what to spot and fix.


He looked at me as if I had two heads when I explained some of the concepts on the Tactics forums because they directly or indirectly contradict the explanations given by the game.

Mentalities should be replaced by 'styles' I think, a direct style, a counter attacking style, a possession style. The tutorials should be crafted to teach how to implement that - it doesn't matter if people elect not to read them - They have the option to educate themselves via the game, so far I don't think that's really in the game with enough priority or importance.

And because the game is mostly based around club building and tactical creation and such, that should be one of the main things that should be transparent for the user.

If you or someone else wants to put that on the feedback thread, I'm all for it.

[76561198258510719]

I think some kind of tactical analysis feedback is possibly something we'll look to do in the future to make it easier for users to understand what is going wrong/right with their tactics. I do agree some of the wording for options within tactics are worded incorrectly, and it's something I've raised internally. Thanks for that detailed feeback too, it is appreciated.

[Libre Ckut]

It honestly reminds me of playing a Madden game, making adjustments pre-snap on offense, and the defense literally reacts to every audible/hot route to perfection within a tenth of a second of you pressing the button. I love how it takes a while for a tactical change/substitution/change in instructions in order to go through yet the CPU reacts immediately.

What it all comes down to is this game does not have any actual artificial intelligence and simply is rigged in order for the game to be at all challenging. You are not exactly playing a simulation of the sport, but merely a video game. The 4-2-3-1 tactics in this game are a joke, absolute joke, and the 4-4--2 diamond wide is practically useless. This game needs a lot of work.

[Libre Ckut]

I won't even talk about how players refuse to enter contract negotiations with their hometown club which they have been a part of for 10+ years, just because they started a couple matches one season. "Teams too small for my ambitions." REALLY NOW?

[mimizukari]

Originally posted by Llibreckut:

I won't even talk about how players refuse to enter contract negotiations with their hometown club which they have been a part of for 10+ years, just because they started a couple matches one season. "Teams too small for my ambitions." REALLY NOW?

>won't even talk about
>talks about it.
that's not how that works.

[ThanVanMon]

Originally posted by robref:

Originally posted by Dunc Greenwood:

Robref, some quite interesting feedback on how you see the playerbase. If you can think of ways we could explain the tactical side of the match engine better could you please raise them here[community.sigames.com] as I'd be interested to see your ideas. :)

I don't really enjoy the official forums anymore, because it just feels so defensive at times.

Personally, I think there needs to be a tactics tutorial, either as a stand alone and optional part of the game that people can access before starting a new game, or as part of the coaching badges system - The lower badges teaching the basic concepts and the higher badges teaching the more advanced concepts.

You can even 'split' the lessons, for example the C license could teach you about mentalities, or the very basics of defending, of pivots and the formations and roles and duties and how they interact. The higher badges could be teaching more advanced concepts, more bizarre formations and so on.

I shouldn't have to be going to the official tactics forums to understand 'mentality', I shouldn't be getting told that a possession game is better done with a defensive/counter mentality when the in-game description for almost every mentality (except control and to a lesser extent counter) implies that the style of play will be direct-football.

In fact, Control mentality reads like the most 'risk free' version of possession football, and yet if the Tactics forums are anything to go by, it favours fast, risky, direct passes - Counter is the mentality that appears more conductive for possession, because if there is no counter attacking 'phase' to trigger, they aim to keep the ball (just as 'risk free' as in the decription of Control.)

I guess, I feel much more strongly about being more user-friendly this year, because my nephew has finally come of age, and the first game he wanted to play was Football Manager, as he's a rabid football fan and he's grown up watching me grow up on it (I was introduced to CM 2 by my uncle, long long time ago! So family tradition!)

Watching him play via Steam, I was just so amused to find him falling into every newbie trap that is highlighted on the official forums. He went super-attacking, he distributed roles haphazardly (auto roles and such) and he would have been player type number 2, but then he was daft enough to ask me for help and it went along the lines of;

"I win, but it isn't convincing and that's not right for me." (Which, in my opinion is a fantastic opinion to hold at 16, not being satisfied with wobbly games and showing an interest in figuring out how to overcome it.)

But what were the tools available for him to deal with that? Prozone? Time? - How is he expect to understand Prozone, if he generally doesn't know what to look for? And if he identifies a problem, how does he figure out how to solve that problem?

Myself, the mods on the forums (the experts), we've been playing the game for a while, we have some understanding of what to spot and how to fix it, either from the tactical discussions going on, or just being lucky enough to have that knowledge/intelligence to deal with it.

My nephew? He's fresh to FM, it is likely the first time he's actually dealt with anything tactical (and he's English, and we all know the English and tactics is sometimes a poor blend! ;) ) he simply doesn't know how or what to spot and fix.


He looked at me as if I had two heads when I explained some of the concepts on the Tactics forums because they directly or indirectly contradict the explanations given by the game.

Mentalities should be replaced by 'styles' I think, a direct style, a counter attacking style, a possession style. The tutorials should be crafted to teach how to implement that - it doesn't matter if people elect not to read them - They have the option to educate themselves via the game, so far I don't think that's really in the game with enough priority or importance.

And because the game is mostly based around club building and tactical creation and such, that should be one of the main things that should be transparent for the user.

If you or someone else wants to put that on the feedback thread, I'm all for it.

Very well written Robref, both posts:)

[Ivo Shandor]

Yes Robref, well done!

Before this game series I never watched soccer, and knew nothing about it. I like manager sim games and gave it a try. Out of the park is a great sim btw and linked me to this one in 2010 or something. After all these years I still have no idea about what tactics are good, I just use my ingame experience since I have no real world (i don't watch games or know who any of the players are!) experience.

You need a way for an outsider to soccer to learn what everything means at first and why you should do it that way.

Regardless I am winning alot with my crazy tactics. I find one that works and tweak it here and there. I buy players that fit into it well. I promoted a team and had it come in 3rd in the premere div in 3 years and I'm in command of a national team too!

Pretty good for a guy who watches Baseball and has no idea about soccer. LOL

[Rödskägg]

I have to agree with WatSim about the higly annoying fact that the AI seems to immediatley notice your tactical changes and counter it. In the real world it takes a bit of time to actually see the change in the oppositions tactics, having been both a player and a manager that is what i have learned atleast.

[BrnwsBucksFanNC]

I guess I would fall somehwere in the middle of these types of players. I really enjoy this game, but tbh, there is alot of it that I dont gt involved in, I dont understand it. I have 3 formations that I like and I recruit and train for them. I almost exclusively play lower league sides so it may just be that I am lucky.

Even though this is only my 3rd variation of FM, I have been a gamer for over 30 years (yes,I started out playing PONG). My big time games now are FM, Madden and OOTP Baseball. Since my knowledge on these 3 games varies greatly I rely on the AI to advise me quite a bit. Maybe that is what happens, but at least with FM I seem to do okay. Maybe in my case, less managment is better.

I would like to see some sort of tutorial though, it is one thing to watch someone doing things on youyube, but to experience it first hand helps me to be able to apply it in the game. I also dont use someone else's tactics, then I am not managing my side, I am managing theirs, but it gets confusing sometimes on what adjustments actually do what.

I have never experienced an unusually high number of injuries, whenever I think I have, I see Arsenal lose 3 guys in 1 match. I closely follow the training schedule and playing time, once again, may be beginners luck.

But all of this said and done, I really enjoy this game, I can understand how it can get VERY frustrating, but to me, any game can get that way. I always caution myself when i start to complain and ask, what long-term issue will this fix? What type of long term issue will it create? Will it make the challenges more realisitic or just eaiser for me to manage.

Over the course of my 50+ years on this earth I have had to deal with quite a few unexpected challenges and I look at this game as the same way. Throw your best at me and see what happenes, some I win, some I lose, but at the end of the day, I step back saying I had fun.

One random thing that I do get frstrated with is the hiring of young manangers with no skills or badges. I find it very unlikely that a semi-professional side, let alone a professional side would want to hire a 19 yr old Sunday League manager with no badges, so I dont take those jobs when offered. I would like to see a way for the Amatuer sides would express an interest in those types of managers so they can start at a side to match their qualifications, that way we dont have to go through 100 sides to find one that will want to hire a unskilled manager.

But keep up the good work, for this "Sunday League Player with no Coaching Badges" it is a load of fun.

[swi7ch]

People are struggling with their tactics because:

* They have 100+ team instructions
* They have 100+ player instructions

So, their 100+ team instructions conflict with their 100+ player instructions (for example, they have Retain Possession selected but if you look at the player roles they've chosen (say, an Advanced Playmaker), a lot of them have More Risky Passes as default! How will your team retain possession if the players on the pitch are going to continually make low-percentage passes?

Solution: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Pick not more than 3 team instructions and LEAVE PLAYER INSTRUCTIONS ALONE! Unless you know the match engine inside-out, the default Player Instructions are 99.9% of the time fine for what you're trying to accomplish.

Following the KISS rule, I'm undefeated in 3 years as Leeds United manager.