Survival's Major Problem

[Why Watt]

Ok, so we are all aware Progression is being sacked. The devs seem very set on taking it out back to have a chat with the horse doctor, albeit they've been known to change their minds but thats whatever. Whatever version you tell it as, be it 'only a test gamemode', 'Survival was always intended to be the game', 'it'll become an official mod' doesn't change the fact that Survival has problems that we have not seen evidence will be adressed, and yet these aren't issues of Progression.

Now, before I go on about tearing appart Survival, I will get this out of the way. Yes, Progression has its genuine flaws. It sets people up to think there is a top, and a bottom, thus making people inclined to grind their way to this imaginary top while not actually enjoying the gameplay at their disposal. Survival does a better job at adressing these, because you always start as a useless version of a different dinosaur, but you choice doesn't ever change what you ultimately get except that one dino. If you say hey, I wanna play as a Utah, you can do that without playing anything else.

But the flaws with Survival largely overwhelm its pros over Progression. As some have called 'sandbox with growth', you pick out a dinosaur and mature to it as a helpless juvenile. Well lemme rephrase the last part: Completely & totally helpless character that's survival hinges not on skill or cunning but on sheer luck.
In Progression, there is absolutely no point where you cannot play the game, exceptions being Orodromeus and Psittacosaurus, which are like playing the Juvi dinosaurs of Survival. Every. Other. Character. Is. Playable. You can travel the map on these creatures, explore the lands and if you die on them, you are set back to something that can still do all of that.

In Survival that is not the case. Now currently the longest dinosaur to achieve full adulthood with is Tyrannosaurus at a mere 4hours of your time. That's not so bad, after all compared to Progression? That would get you a Dilophosaurus in that same timeframe.
You spend just over 2hrs as a totally useless Juvi, half of which you can barely move around at all, trailing dust behind the puny Velociraptor of Progression in both your endurance and speed.
During that time, you could be killed by a Juvi Utahraptor, who you'd think would be at the disadvantage. Yeah last week I hopped on EU3 as a Juvi Utah, fresh into the world I killed 2 Juvi rexes.

But here is the thing, the devs want it to take just as long to reach big powerful beasties in Survival as current Progression. So why is that terrible, would do wonders to whittle away at megapacks right?

If you take that former T.rex example, and now realize it would take you 20 hours to reach adulthood? My friends, you will be spending almost 11 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hours as that same helpless Juvenile Tyrannosaurus.
If that has not caught your attention as being completely horrible gameplay lemme rephrase. Over ten hours where you cannot run for more than a minute, cannot defend yourself against anything that rides your ass, cannot explore the map, struggle to find any food or water. During those 10 hours? You will be easy pickings. So forget how often you die in Survival now before making it to Subadult, because that timeframe will provide, call it five times more oppertunities for things to kill you off. If you think 2hours of paying attention, hiding, staying on the move, darting out to drink or eat, if that is painful?

You have no idea what's comming.

Now back to comparing to Progression. In both of these gamemodes, if you died during those 10hours, you would be set back to square one. No mercy, no fallback, no safepoint, hardcore right? After 10 Hours you of Progression can have yourself a Shantungosaurus, or a Carnotaurus, or a Stegosaurus, or a Baryonyx, or a Therizinosaurus, or whatever.
You could be at a point where you can be making your way in the world, throwing down and winning intense fights, raising a brood of your own.

Or you could be a worthless Juvi Tyrannosaurus. Make those puny little runt sounds.

Now, consider that other systems will be thrown into the mix. Strains. Cannibals. Natural disasters. Humans. AI. Scent. Brutal Night Vision. All would do just as well to make your life hard in both gamemodes, difference is of course that you are able to GET THE F#CK OUT OF DODGE in Progression, whereas you are stuck up ♥♥♥♥'s creek without a paddle in Survival.

So what would you rather:
A gamemode with more creatures, ones that at no point are completely helpless and forced to hide, one where your time yields concrete results.
Not being forced to play as any dinosaur, spend the same time to reach adult as you would in the other gamemode but be completely helpless for most of your gametime, and have fewer characters at your disposal.

It's a no brainer for me, is it for you?

[Cow Tools]

Aren't parent dinos supposed to take care of babies? Doesn't that make the game much easier for juvie (this is just question, I do not know how well it works)?

[Sargon The Grape]

I agree completely, but the lack of counterplay is only the second-largest problem. The single largest problem in survival mode is the lack of the human meta; literally half of the metagame does not exist due to the absence of mercenaries and tribals (the test dummies don't count). It's difficult to say what sort of counterplay for the young dinosaurs is even appropriate when half of the competition isn't around to measure them against.

[DevilTwins]

Honestly...
I'd still prefer Survival over Progression. However i'd prefer it, if it was a mix of the 2 gamemodes.
Have both good things about both gamemodes all rolled into one sort of thing.

Meaning, I'd like to have the Option to play as ANY of the playable dinosaurs in the game. Apart from strains etc. Just like progression allows.

However, with the choice to chose the dino you want to be, just like in survival. So if i wanted to play as Pue, I'd just pick pue. But it'll play like survival where you start off as a juvie.
I don't care about new models. New models do cost money. So i'd be happy with the shrinked down versions of the adults as juvies for dinos that don't actually have the hatchling/Juvenile models.

Dondi could have took idea's from Both the gamemodes and made it better. All this stuff about Mechanics to make them Unique, just limits players on what they can chose. Considering, i got addicted to this game because i Actually had the Choice to chose what i wanted to play as. That's what made me enjoy this game. Whenever i got bored of a certain playstyle, I'd just jump for a different one. That change of pace was always refreshing. Made this game so enjoyable. But even now with survival, It feels more like a Demo version of sandbox. Without half the dinos i actually enjoy playing. I'm pretty much more of a herbivore player, myself, but i do enjoy going on the carnivore side once in a while.
The lack of dinos in survival get's irratating. Considering, without AI other than oro, There's no Variety.

Now survival would only really need to Up the time it takes to gain a Powerful dino.
That includes both carnivores and herbivores.
They Don't need to remove the apexes. All they need to do is make them longer to get. I tested out rex myself, and just 5 or so hours to get to adult were a Huge pain in the ass. I felt like It wasn't Worth that much of my time. If all apexes times got increased, Trike, Rex and giga and other future apexes, then less people will actually be able to make it to apex. People that do, have earned it. You'd have less people making it to adulthood, and more people playing the small to medium tiers.

Now for juvies, All he needs to do is Buff them accordingly, to make them less of an easy meal. So that they can actually escape if need to.

It'd also be great if he actually Removed Footprint tracking from scent. Dinosaurs should only be able to smell food, water, Bodies and Blood. Footprint Tracking should only be for Humans.
This means that juveniles can actually Hide from danger without apexes holding q to see where they went.

[MySoulBegone]

I don't like either survival or progression tbh. Just being set back to square one sucks d*ck in my opinion. If you would keep your points or only loose half of them when you die (progression) or be set back to like 40% smaller then last time (survival) then I might be ok with it. This does have problems, but I'd rather have it that way.

[MySoulBegone]

And I hope they add more AI soon and make the boides not fly like a mile whenever they die like they do (at least for me) now on the thenyaw map. I can't eat ♥♥♥♥.

[DayDream]

When AI is in you'll spawn in with parents, so it may not be as hard playing juvi.

[RNG-ReptimusPrime]

Originally posted by Impasta:

When AI is in you'll spawn in with parents, so it may not be as hard playing juvi.

I'd like to see your source for that because as far as I am aware, the only way you'd get AI dino parents is by playing Saurian.

[Why Watt]

Originally posted by Birb:

Aren't parent dinos supposed to take care of babies? Doesn't that make the game much easier for juvie (this is just question, I do not know how well it works)?

Juvies are different to hatchlings; Hatchlings are entirely dependant on their parents, but only ever appear as a result of nesting. Juveniles are something everyone has to play to reach a given dinosaur.

Originally posted by Just Monika:

I agree completely, but the lack of counterplay is only the second-largest problem. The single largest problem in survival mode is the lack of the human meta; literally half of the metagame does not exist due to the absence of mercenaries and tribals (the test dummies don't count). It's difficult to say what sort of counterplay for the young dinosaurs is even appropriate when half of the competition isn't around to measure them against.

Not the main point I made. I fully agree that in regards to balance than yeah, of course we need humans to be in to test things.

But the major Issue I brought up was how Survival will end up taking exactly as long as Progression to achieve a given dinosaur. In Survival T.rex takes a total of 4hrs to achieve adulthood with, whereas in Progression (the time it will become for survival) that is 20hrs.

Half of your time growing a T.rex is as Juvie. So, ergo ipso facto: 10hrs of being that helpless runt.

Originally posted by jeekroos:

I don't like either survival or progression tbh. Just being set back to square one sucks d*ck in my opinion. If you would keep your points or only loose half of them when you die (progression) or be set back to like 40% smaller then last time (survival) then I might be ok with it. This does have problems, but I'd rather have it that way.

For Progression, a way it could work is if when you die, you maintain any PP that you had but are set back to square 1. Throw in making leftover PP not lost upon progression?
If you survived well as say, an Allo and had 300PP, right? It dies, and you spawn as little Velo but.. a velo with 300PP. So you then prog to austro, but... a subadult Austro with 240PP.

@DevilTwins

I fully agree that dinosaurs do not need updated models / animations / new ones for life stages, especially as smaller dinosaurs. Perhaps simply code in a system where Juvies are lankier and have bigger heads relative, and boom, problemo solved.
I would love being able to play as every dinosaur in Survival.

But the thing you are missing is that time isn't the issue. In Survival, you start as X dino and grow into the adult form of X dino. Before it is a subadult? It is completely helpless, regardless of the Dinosaur. Well, it will take just as long to get whatever Dino in Prog as the adult in Survival.
So say you throw in Spinosaurus. RN? Takes 23hrs, in Progression, to become that beast. If we assume a similar ratio to T.rex, say half of its total time it is a Juvie, that would be 11hrs 30minutes of being a Juvenile Spinosaurus.
The devs have PLANNED to increase the time to reach adult in Survival to match Progression, so if that were the case, it would make Survival a horrible gamemode.
Unlike Progression where only very limited durations of your gameplay are you truly ever a handicapped dinosaur, now for half of any of your session you will this painful horrible creature to use.

[Sargon The Grape]

Originally posted by Why Watt:

But the major Issue I brought up was how Survival will end up taking exactly as long as Progression to achieve a given dinosaur. In Survival T.rex takes a total of 4hrs to achieve adulthood with, whereas in Progression (the time it will become for survival) that is 20hrs.

Half of your time growing a T.rex is as Juvie. So, ergo ipso facto: 10hrs of being that helpless runt.

Well the main reason I bring up counterplay is because, as you say, the progression dinosaurs were still interesting to play while you waited for whatever apex species you were aiming for. It's not that the juvies are weak. Velociraptors, herrerasaurs, dryodaurs, etc. are quite weak. The key difference between the low-tier progression dinosaurs and the juveniles is that the former is merely weak, while the latter is helpless. Take the juvie carnotaurus. What, praytell, is that thing supposed to hunt? And if it doesn't hunt, what should it scavenge? It'll just get eaten the moment it approaches someone else's guarded corpse, and it's not like the adults (fragile speedsters that they are) can realistically care for them. Sure, they might get lucky, but games like this shouldn't force you to rely on luck. It's infuriating when skill doesn't matter, as you said in your opening post.

That's the issue, as I see it. The juvenile stage can be as short or as long as the devs want, but without counterplay all it changes is the time spent sitting in a bush. And to develop proper counterplay, we need to know how the other two factions affect the meta.

[Evil Minіоn]

Progression times are bloated. You don't need that many hours with the Survival system as you keep growing (also increasing your hunger drain) , won't get free refills every stage and can't shortcut by nesting.

The only reason for such bloated times would be major balance issues between life stages. As one of the worst possible ways to deal with those.

[Cow Tools]

Originally posted by Why Watt:

Originally posted by Birb:

Aren't parent dinos supposed to take care of babies? Doesn't that make the game much easier for juvie (this is just question, I do not know how well it works)?

Juvies are different to hatchlings; Hatchlings are entirely dependant on their parents, but only ever appear as a result of nesting. Juveniles are something everyone has to play to reach a given dinosaur.

Thank you for explaining.

[[TL]Loganalm]

I'd really love it if the younger stages in survival were not complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ garbage and actually viable( the only ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ viable one is basically the Dyro juvi because it's small and able to actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MOVE!)

[EdvonSchleck]

I've seen this coming when people were ranting about progression all over and praising survival to be the new messiah. Goes to show that you can never really please the instant gratification generation.
Just my 2 cents, I actually like juvi gameplay as is. It can be frustrating, yes. And at times even boring which is an issue. But once you've learned how to play it, and also learned the map you're playing on it can be thrilling and tense. It absolutely takes skill to survive (unless you find adults to raise your butt), more so than it would if juvies had better survival capabilities from the get go which is what all of you seem to be asking for.
The idea is that your survival capablities are enhanced as you grow which adds variety to the gameplay. Luck can be a factor, but not to the extend that people make it out to be. Of course your life depends on luck the moment you spawn, and if you don't have good map knowledge you also better be lucky to move in the right direction from the get go. Though more water sources and AI are going to resolve a lot of those issues for juvi gameplay. And sure, if you're say on a quest to find a group/parents, you can always be unlucky and run into hostile people. Then again, having a group comes with such overwhelming benefits, it would be lame if there was no risk involved in approaching others. Friends are gonna be teaming anyways, and this is where the odds of success already dramatically shift in your favor which makes properly balancing juvis difficult. Other than that you are no more dependent on luck than any other creature. It is in your hands to stay away from anything that can kill you, be stealthy and not draw attention. Or you actually make the risky play and stick around more populated areas and actually approach other players. This is where you are pushing your luck, and you can't blame bad luck afterwards if you die, can you? Patience, good decision making and good timing are all skills that matter hugely when you're playing as juvi. Combat skills are supposed to be playing a bigger role later on. Just a matter of letting oneself in for that kind of developing gameplay.

Any other type of juvi gameplay would be contradictory to the notion of this game which is survival horror. It's not a deathmatch where balance and combat skills are the driving forces for good gameplay. If you could easily escape other dinos a juvi the game would probably fail to deliver on what it wants to achieve which is to instill fear and tension

[Dimitris]

Isnt this supposed to be a hardcore survival game?
also from what i understand there are supposed to be 2-3 adult apexes in each server not more
smaller creatures will have smaller times so the reward is equal to the strugle you had to take until you reached what you wanted
lowering the ammount of playable dinos is ok since many dinos do exactly what others do but better or worse so exept from the looks there is no reason to play the worse version
plus unique abilitys will make the game feel more like a real ecosystem where youll see each predator have hes own pray
plus ai oros and psytacos will be the most common (most likely) so finding food as a baby wont be that hard i quess
and the most popular dinos will join eventually

[Why Watt]

Originally posted by wunderbar:

I've seen this coming when people were ranting about progression all over and praising survival to be the new messiah. Goes to show that you can never really please the instant gratification generation.
Just my 2 cents, I actually like juvi gameplay as is. It can be frustrating, yes. And at times even boring which is an issue. But once you've learned how to play it, and also learned the map you're playing on it can be thrilling and tense. It absolutely takes skill to survive (unless you find adults to raise your butt), more so than it would if juvies had better survival capabilities from the get go which is what all of you seem to be asking for.
The idea is that your survival capablities are enhanced as you grow which adds variety to the gameplay. Luck can be a factor, but not to the extend that people make it out to be. Of course your life depends on luck the moment you spawn, and if you don't have good map knowledge you also better be lucky to move in the right direction from the get go. Though more water sources and AI are going to resolve a lot of those issues for juvi gameplay. And sure, if you're say on a quest to find a group/parents, you can always be unlucky and run into hostile people. Then again, having a group comes with such overwhelming benefits, it would be lame if there was no risk involved in approaching others. Friends are gonna be teaming anyways, and this is where the odds of success already dramatically shift in your favor which makes properly balancing juvis difficult. Other than that you are no more dependent on luck than any other creature. It is in your hands to stay away from anything that can kill you, be stealthy and not draw attention. Or you actually make the risky play and stick around more populated areas and actually approach other players. This is where you are pushing your luck, and you can't blame bad luck afterwards if you die, can you? Patience, good decision making and good timing are all skills that matter hugely when you're playing as juvi. Combat skills are supposed to be playing a bigger role later on. Just a matter of letting oneself in for that kind of developing gameplay.

Any other type of juvi gameplay would be contradictory to the notion of this game which is survival horror. It's not a deathmatch where balance and combat skills are the driving forces for good gameplay. If you could easily escape other dinos a juvi the game would probably fail to deliver on what it wants to achieve which is to instill fear and tension

You don't know who you are talking to so lemme spell something out. I'd hate for easy gameplay, truly and dearly. I love the thrill of being vulnurable, of being prey. I'm not an instant gratification kinda guy, that's not for me. The single mechanic in the game I hate the most is nesting because in Progression it allows everyone to be skip and makes apexes commonplace. Before that, every apex you saw had to make it to the top the entire way. People didn't form megapacks because they couldn't, and when faced with danger? They avoided, they bluffed, because if they died it didnt matter if you were in a group with friends; you were stuck as a Dryo if you died, period, end of story.

But you seem to not realize my angle so I'll try and make it impossibly clear.
You might find it fun to be the runt, and I cant disagree entirely. But with how totally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ uselees they are and how much luck dictates your experience? Sure, I agree if someone is an imbecile and runs into the open trying to befriend adults, or if they don't know the map than yeah they should be cucked or at least chancing things. But Juvi T.rex, among the other Juvis, are incredibly slow and helpless. They are too loud, are not able to travel around the map and idk about you? But being the ♥♥♥♥♥ of the foodchain for 11 hours before being able to defend yourself at all sounds like bull. Yeah its once thing for it to be hardcore.
But the issue will not come from food or water. It won't. It will be players and AI. People complain the maps are too large for so many people, but when times are increased they will want maps thrice the size. Because as that baby? Run into ANYTHING and you are dead. You are forced to be a scavenger, with nearly nothing you can hunt. Last week I was a juvi Gallimimus and I was being hunted by a Juvi T.rex. It was funny, really. I had no stamina and kept kicking its ass. I was doing like no meaningful damage, but I was trolling it. The poor ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing could run for more than a few seconds, during which I just run behind it, allow my stamina to regenerate. What do you think that Juvi T.rex player felt? Horror? Excitement? No. They thought they had found prey, instead of scavenging to do something for themselves, only to walk away empty handed in an exhausting, tedious and boring experience.