Herrerasaurus: The Final Draft (until further notice)

[Sable]

Intro

For you old-timers, you probably remember this pitch from a couple years back. This was an idea originally spit-balled by the developers long ago, during the game’s earliest years. I had taken it upon myself to do something with this idea, however like most suggestions from one or two years back, what I had done then is no longer relevant with new information of today.

So, this is the final reiteration of a suggestion that I had spent many hours on in the past. I hope that I can give this a proper send-off.

Some ground rules:
1. Read the entire thing before you make a comment.
2. Make sure your comments are civilized and detailed.
3. Don't derail the topic. I'm not here to discuss "devs bad, gaem bad." Take that ♥♥♥♥ somewhere else.
4. Don't be a douche.

Concept

From both my older versions of the suggestion as well as the vague teasing on the roadmap, Herrerasaurus is an arboreal assassin; a killer who strikes from above. It’s an animal that is dependent on keeping a low profile (or a high one, I suppose). Stealth is its forte and key to a successful hunt, whether it's attacking a small meek prey from the undergrowth or assassinating larger targets from the trees.

Because of its particular toolkit, Herrerasaurus is a solitary predator. Outside of mating or rearing young, this animal lives and hunts alone. Much of its time is spent lazing about in the trees, preferably near sources of water where it can be more likely to encounter prey. It will generally lay claim to turfs and live as a sedentary animal rather than a nomadic creature.

Mechanics

Drop-Pounce
The Drop-Pounce is the Herrerasaurus’ deadliest form of attack; the secondary attack that is used while Herrerasaurus is in the trees. Its own weight and gravity are what make this mechanic so potent, as the greater the height from which a Herrerasaurus falls, the heavier the stun impact (heavier stuns allow for takedowns of larger animals). While the Herrerasaurus, as a creature that spends time in the trees, has great resistance against fall damage, it will still suffer a three second stun-lapse if it misses its target, allowing for the prey to escape or punish.

Arboreal
Mentioned already, but Herrerasaurus’ abilities in the trees should extend to more than just climbing. Being able to leap from tree to tree, move and rest along branches, and drag its kills into the canopies for safe eating. This allows it to be able to reposition itself for an attack or escape being camped in a single tree.

Drop-Pounce Stun Formula

The Drop-Pounce stun formula is a formula that is used to determine how long a stun lasts from the impact of the Drop-Pounce. The stun time is dependent on two variables and generally is how the Herrerasaurus takes down larger animals when it cannot rely on its normal bite. The higher height from which Herrerasaurus drops, the longer the stun time. The size of the target also plays a part, as larger animals are more resistant to the stun.

This makes it so that in order to have a better chance of killing large creatures, Herrerasaurus needs to take risks as falling from greater heights will have greater consequences, especially if it misses. This makes the mechanic overall very dependent on player ability and thus, justifying the punishment Herrerasaurus can deliver.

This is what the stun formula looks like for the Drop-Pounce.

(2 * Herrerasaurus Weight * Height) / (Target Weight) = Stun Time in Seconds

Now, before we delve any further into how the formula functions, we need to first know what the threshold for Herrerasaurus’ resistance to fall damage is.

10 meters is the absolute greatest height a Herrerasaurus can fall without taking any sort of fall damage (including taking zero fractures).

Every additional meter of height after 10 meters, Herrerasaurus takes 10% damage and will begin to take fracture damage as well.

20 meters is the kill point. A fall from this height will kill a Herrerasaurus outright.

So now that we know what its fall damage resistance looks like (we’ll from here on, refer to it as FDR), we can talk how the formula works.

Let’s get our variables in place. We will use three animals for Target Weights (Utahraptor, Ceratosaurus, Tenontosaurus). We’ll round the answers to the nearest whole number.

Herrerasaurus Weight: 175
Height: 10
Target Weights: 500, 1060, 1600

Utahraptor
(2 * 175 * 10) / (500)
= 7

Ceratosaurus
(2 * 175 * 10) / (1060)
= 3

Tenontosaurus
(2 * 175 * 10) / (1600)
= 2

As you can see, the greater the Target Weight, the lower the stun-time resulting from impact. So while 10 meters is the highest point a Herrerasaurus can drop without injuring itself, it may not be enough to help it bring them down with such little stun-time. So what Herrerasaurus will do (if one is courageous enough), is fall from a greater height to increase the stun-time and thus, raise its chances of killing its prey.

Let's change the height from 10 meters to 15, and focus on Ceratosaurus for this demonstration.

(2 * 175 * 15) / (1060)
= 5

So, even though falling from a greater height of 15 meters will injure the Herrerasaurus some, it will also yield a greater stun time which will allow it a much better shot of bringing down large prey.

Drop-Pounce Impact and DPS

Now, the formula only determines the stun-time, but it does not determine anything to do with the damage output of the Drop-Pounce. There are two values when concerning Drop-Pounce damage

• Impact – damage done from moment of contact
  
• DPS – damage done with each bite after impact

Both values at their base are static, in the sense that they do not vary from weight or height. However, like all other forms of damage, they can be affected by locational multipliers.

The Drop-Pounce can target two different points; the head and the back. Landing on the head will result in a much higher multiplier while back (body) will result in the base values.

Impact Damage set at 200 and DPS set at 80 allows for Herrerasaurus to be able to take down animals considerably larger (assuming it nails a high stun time), and if it lands on the head of a target.

So for example, a Herrerasaurus lands on a sub-adult Tenontosaurus (weighing about 1200), scoring a direct hit on the head from a height of 15 meters:

(2 * 175 * 15) / (1200)
= 4

4 seconds of stun time, during which the Tenontosaurus cannot fight back, which allows Herrerasaurus to inflict as much damage as possible in order to kill it.

200 impact damage on the head (2x multiplier), results in 400 damage dealt on moment of contact.

DPS of 80, applied to the same multiplier, results in 160 per second until stun-time is out and the Tenontosaurus recovers. Within this window, Herrerasaurus is free to inflict a total 880 damage, leaving Tenontosaurus with only 320 HP left by the time it is able to attempt to buck off the predator.

Now, this may sound like an obscenely powerful ability for such a small predator and at first glance would likely make it seem a tad OP. However, one must consider what it takes for Herrerasaurus to be able to inflict this kind of harm.

Just to be able to try to use the Drop-Pounce requires some very particular circumstances, as the target has to be under the right tree, and even then, Herrerasaurus has to take great care in its aim. There is a very large potential for error, so if the Herrerasaurus manages to nail the Drop-Pounce, it deserves to be able to dish out serious pain.

Balance Points

So, consider that we have a small, reasonably fast-moving predator that can punch very high over its size and also access an area that other animals cannot. We need to consider other points of balance that ensure this thing is not untouchable to other species. So, just as I do with all other suggestions on animals, we will attempt at creating a balancing scheme based on current knowledge and the likelihood that it will remain similar to the future, even if somewhat different.

So, here is what is our current knowledge consists of:

Known and in-game
Utahraptor – 52 kilometers per hour
Dryosaurus – 50 kilometers per hour
Tenontosaurus – 45 kilometers per hour
Carnotaurus – 61 kilometers per hour
Stegosaurus – 26 kilometers per hour
Hypsilophodon – 39 kilometers per hour

Estimated and not in-game
Allosaurus – 40 to 42 kilometers per hour (from animation speed)
Tyrannosaurus – 30 to 33 kilometers per hour (from animation speed)

Using these numbers we will try to find a point in which Herrerasaurus can exist without being invalidated or invalidating other animals. This particular area of balance is mobility, which consists of four things:

• Top Speed
  
• Stamina Duration
  
• Stamina Regeneration while trotting
  
• Stamina Regeneration while walking
  
• Stamina Regeneration while resting

Keep in mind, that these numbers I’m about to input are purely speculation and what it should be in my opinion.

• Top Speed – 45 kilometers an hour
  
• Stamina Duration – 60 seconds / 1:00
  
• Stamina Regeneration while trotting – 190 seconds
  
• Stamina Regeneration while walking – 190 seconds
  
• Stamina Regeneration while resting – 90 seconds

Compared to other animals of similar size, like Dryosaurus, Herrerasaurus isn’t particularly as fast, falling short at 45 kilometers an hour. Not only that, but Herrerasaurus doesn’t have much in the way of stamina either, coming up at only 60 seconds. This is because this predator is an ambush killer; an assassin who relies on getting the drop on prey (literally) and killing them before they have a chance to react. It is not a hunter that should be looking to run down its prey with neither sheer speed nor endurance.

This is also why it has abysmal stamina regeneration while moving, as to discourage/disallow it to attempt distance pursuits. The speedier recovery while resting is so that the carnivore can be able to quickly have energy to drag its prize into the trees after a kill.

In short, Herrerasaurus’ mobility is not that fantastic in comparison with the likes of Dryosaurus or Utahraptor. While we discussed why that’s not needed for hunting given its method of killing, it’s important to note that it’s also not needed for escape. This is an arboreal animal, so being highly mobile isn’t required for it to survive as it can simply take to the trees for safety.

Closure

I'm tired by this point, so ♥♥♥♥ a closure.

[Sable]

I hate that I go to edit it after posting, and it turns out I just made another post and not an edit. Years of this ♥♥♥♥ and I still do that. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pisses me off.

Feels weird to be making these posts again.

[Shot'em]

Feels great to get those theory-crafting wheels turning again. The numbers seem fairly solid to me, though I am curious if the Drop-Pounce's DPS component is Herrera having a sort of latch or if it's biting away at the opponent after having stunned it via drop-pod delivery of the lizard. Might also influence its ground-based matchups to know what its regular bite attacks will be like, even if it really shouldn't be using it for 99% of the matchups it can have.

[Sable]

Originally posted by Shot'em:

Feels great to get those theory-crafting wheels turning again. The numbers seem fairly solid to me, though I am curious if the Drop-Pounce's DPS component is Herrera having a sort of latch or if it's biting away at the opponent after having stunned it via drop-pod delivery of the lizard. Might also influence its ground-based matchups to know what its regular bite attacks will be like, even if it really shouldn't be using it for 99% of the matchups it can have.

It is a latch, as the mechanic is described as a pounce. Well, variation of it anyway.

Regular bite attacks mirror DPS, and while theoretically, you could manage a kill being on the ground rather than being latched, Herrerasaurus isn't a tanky animal. It's thin and lanky, and when a Tenontosaurus or anything large recovers, what would most likely happen (if Herrerasaurus isn't latched on) is they nuke it from orbit.

Making the D-P also have to actually be a pounce also makes sure that Herrerasaurus nails it right, as opposed to possibly just, accidentally slipping out of the tree and happening to fall on something. As funny as that would be, I'm not for rewarding players for making what would be in any other scenario, an error.

[Shot'em]

Originally posted by The Stoat:

Originally posted by Shot'em:

Feels great to get those theory-crafting wheels turning again. The numbers seem fairly solid to me, though I am curious if the Drop-Pounce's DPS component is Herrera having a sort of latch or if it's biting away at the opponent after having stunned it via drop-pod delivery of the lizard. Might also influence its ground-based matchups to know what its regular bite attacks will be like, even if it really shouldn't be using it for 99% of the matchups it can have.

It is a latch, as the mechanic is described as a pounce. Well, variation of it anyway.

Regular bite attacks mirror DPS, and while theoretically, you could manage a kill being on the ground rather than being latched, Herrerasaurus isn't a tanky animal. It's thin and lanky, and when a Tenontosaurus or anything large recovers, what would most likely happen (if Herrerasaurus isn't latched on) is they nuke it from orbit.

Making the D-P also have to actually be a pounce also makes sure that Herrerasaurus nails it right, as opposed to possibly just, accidentally slipping out of the tree and happening to fall on something. As funny as that would be, I'm not for rewarding players for making what would be in any other scenario, an error.

Ok cool, thanks for the clarification.

[Tregrenos]

While the current trees don’t allow for much this would be an interesting mechanic in a location like the redwood. Rather than just limiting this to trees it would be cool if this pounce could be activated from the ground, but not really “count” unless it falls far enough. This would open ledges and cliffs to be sneak points rather than only being limited to trees. It would be risky as you could then be snuck up on yourself, but it opens options for stalking prey.

Would also be cool if it had a “wall climbing” ability where if a surface is too steep they can latch on and climb. In a recent stream it was discussed that the climbing mechanic in “Age of Conan” was of interest, mainly because it’s an underutilized mechanic. Considering your proposal Herrerasaurus might make good use of such a system. Players might even design their dinos colors and patterns based on where they want to hunt, grey for rocky areas, brown for redwoods and green for jungle. All of which are areas that could make use of a wall/tree climbing mechanic.

[Sable]

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

While the current trees don’t allow for much this would be an interesting mechanic in a location like the redwood. Rather than just limiting this to trees it would be cool if this pounce could be activated from the ground, but not really “count” unless it falls far enough. This would open ledges and cliffs to be sneak points rather than only being limited to trees. It would be risky as you could then be snuck up on yourself, but it opens options for stalking prey.

Would also be cool if it had a “wall climbing” ability where if a surface is too steep they can latch on and climb. In a recent stream it was discussed that the climbing mechanic in “Age of Conan” was of interest, mainly because it’s an underutilized mechanic. Considering your proposal Herrerasaurus might make good use of such a system. Players might even design their dinos colors and patterns based on where they want to hunt, grey for rocky areas, brown for redwoods and green for jungle. All of which are areas that could make use of a wall/tree climbing mechanic.

Climbing was intended to extend to multiple "terrains," at least from me. I don't know what the devs are doing, but in my ancient, buried threads, I had wanted it to climb walls, cliffs, fences and so on.

By extension, the D-P would also be able to be used from those areas as well.

Of course, trees will require more work for this to function, as of current the branches don't even have collision. Fortunately, there is well over a year for them to be worked on as Herrerasaurus is one of the final animals on the roadmap.

[Nearchus]

Wow, it's been a while since we've had a well-written post like this, kudos to you.

The trees will definitely have to have some work done to them to support a Herrerasaurus being able to move through them and be able to drag dead prey into them. I'd like to see Herrera fill a sort of hawk-like role(albeit without... you know... the whole flying thing), ambushing small prey from above, killing it very quickly(On impact?), and getting back in the tree, prey in hand. I don't really imagine Herrera taking on larger animals, however. To me the Herrera just seems too fragile and too small to take on larger animals, such as the Tenontosaurus.

[Sable]

Originally posted by GekkoGamer:

Snip

Herrerasaurus, given our lighter morphotype, is fragile. You are correct about that, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a threat to large animals.

IRL, these things were basically the Triassic Allosaurus. They had a strong bite,
strong arms with grasping hands, hinged jaw, and a very powerful neck; all traits of an animal designed to kill things larger than itself.

Those traits combined with the toolkit of being arboreal and dropping on things basically makes it a sort of assassin class; a glass cannon. Less hawk, more leopard, I guess to put it simply. So indeed, if something big were to smack it, like Tenontosaurus, Herrerasaurus explodes, but that is why it relies almost exclusively on the element of surprise and utilizing a mechanic that gives the edge by keeping itself out of harm's way.

[bigmoe808]

So basically, you made a Dinosaur Leopard Falcon Weasel.

I agree with just about everything and how you want to implement it, my only question-then-is Herrera's carry capacity. It has the potential to take out large targets, possibly mid tiers despite being a small tier itself. How much will it be able to drag up a tree.

Though, I guess that doesn't really matter much. Prey is meant to be stolen, it's the way of The Isle. Plus, we now have Gibblet tearing, so Herrera can just pick an appropriate amount to take with it...still, one could make this a concerning factor depending on the animal's metabolism and need to feed heavily. Make it important to drag a hug carcass up a tree so it can't be disturbed. You touch on this a bit when you gave it a short stamina recovery.

Oh. But disregarding Theoreticals, how does this formula change if there are two Herreras? I know you want it to be a solitary ambushed, but, until we know the upkeep of just one we kinda need to see how the math works.

Actually, borrowing from either you or Why Watt (or maybe someone else I can't remember but deserves credit, possibly Krona) I think Herrera needs an extra mechanic where it can overeat and store food as fat. Personally, this is an animal that should have a pretty high metabolism and need a lot of food. BUT. It's also a very niche hunter and is relying on a lot of statistics and separate factors to set up good quality kills that pay in and make profit.

So, through all my rambling, give it a fat storing mechanic (borrowed from a suggestion to make Ava bulk up) which puts a safety cap on its hunger. I know I could just say "Give it big hunger number" but I think this way actually plays around with your idea fairly well. In fact, here's a list of what it has to offer.

1. It can affect Herrera's weight which affects the formula.
   
   
2. It encourages Herrera to covet its meals and not accept sharing (as the players will do just cause).
   
   
3. It gives us a work around to just increasing the hunger bar while also trying to adjust the drain rate. This last one may not be worded correctly, but, I think it's important

Feel free to tell me I'm being paranoid and am missing something from the post, just floating ideas to make sure we're not forgetting or neglecting anything.

[Sable]

Originally posted by bigmoe808:

snip

I'd be generous with its carry capacity and let it drag the same threshold as leopards, which is 3x its own body weight. ♥♥♥♥ it. Let it drag a whole Utahraptor up into the canopies for snacking, so 500 kilograms.

Midtiers for Herrerasaurus are just about out of the question unless:
A) The Herrerasaurus has the biggest balls ever to jump from the highest survivalable height.
B) It nails the hit on the head.
C) The midtier is also the most incompetent player in the world.

I include C as even falling 19 meters on a Carnotaurus only gives it 4 seconds of stun time (remember rounding to the nearest whole number). Following headshot multipliers, that's a total of 880 HP Herrera can rip out before Carnotaurus recovers from the stun, and is left with 920 HP. That's more than enough for Carnotaurus to be able to buck and throw off a Herrerasaurus before it can finish the kill.

It's not just Herrerasaurus being greedy with high metabolism that leads it to a solitary life. Its killing mechanic targets small, specific points on an animal: the head and the back. There's only room for a single Herrerasaurus to land and latch, and if another decides to come in and say "I'm helping," all it's going to do is knock off the other Herrerasaurus and ruin the hunt, assuming it doesn't get one or both of them killed as well. So, the formula isn't changed whatsoever with multiple Herrerasaurus; not possible for more than one to latch onto something.

So, even if players want to form a group, it's just simply not beneficial for them when it takes one to make the kill. If only one predator is expending the effort to do so, coupled with needing to eat large meals, it's just not going to work out to be in a group. Being able to obtain such large meals doesn't mean everyone can share. It hunts large prey because it's a necessity, not a luxury. This is a predator that will not get many solid hunting opportunities, so it's forced to make the most when it can and be selfish when it succeeds.

Herrerasaurus getting fat is not something that I think needs to happen, but I won't write it off as a bad idea either, at least for increasing its own weight to put more oomph into its mechanic.

[Tregrenos]

Sounds like a small-tier dino choice for players who like playing solo rather than joining a group, but I’d imagine that if one manages to lock on to the head any others can still go for the legs with tooth and claw. Taking advantage of the stun time to attack normally should the Herras be moving like a pack of tree ninjas.

[Sable]

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

snip

Of course there is no way to stop players from grouping and sharing, but a Herrerasaurus group will struggle with maintaining full bellies more than a lone one.

Their mechanic is very circumstantial and they need to eat a lot. So they need their meals to last them as long as possible until they get another good shot at making another kill. They basically have no incentive or benefit to be in a group.

Even if others go for the legs, legs have reduced multipliers, so they aren't making much difference. A single Herrerasaurus gets ♥♥♥♥ done, regardless of whether others try to help or not.

It's like you're in a group doing a school project, but you did like, 99% of the work by yourself and everyone else just put their name on it. You didn't need them, but they're there and they're taking credit for all the stuff you did yourself.

That's Herrerasaurus.

[bigmoe808]

Originally posted by The Stoat:

Originally posted by bigmoe808:

snip

It's not just Herrerasaurus being greedy with high metabolism that leads it to a solitary life. Its killing mechanic targets small, specific points on an animal: the head and the back. There's only room for a single Herrerasaurus to land and latch, and if another decides to come in and say "I'm helping," all it's going to do is knock off the other Herrerasaurus and ruin the hunt, assuming it doesn't get one or both of them killed as well. So, the formula isn't changed whatsoever with multiple Herrerasaurus; not possible for more than one to latch onto something.

Well see, my concern is that the players will rotate. Sure, this is going to require a bit of discipline on their part but imagine if people timed it.

1. Herrera One-Target Acquired
   
   
2. Engaging Launch-Damaged Dealt
   
   
3. Herrera Two-Count Down To Contact
   
   
4. Engaging Launch-Damage Dealt
   
   
5. Herrera Three-Count Down To Contact
   
   
6. Engaging Launch-Damage Dealt

Now, maybe this isn't a problem. I did say this requires disciple, and perhaps knowing your animal well enough to pull this off is deserving of the reward. My issue is what exactly should be done about it? People on comms will have this options, even radio silent yet experienced players have the potential. It's an option that I can't really overlook if the only answer is that people can never be that good of players.

If I had to think of an honest way to discourage this behavior...hmm, I would say that Herrera's Pounce (in particular) comes with a caveat of Adrenaline Rush. Using the ability increases the Hunger Rate, acting as a loan that scales with the effort put behind the targets and height.

Still, maybe you see the Herrera Pounce differently than I do. You did, in fact, hide the meatier dps behind stun time duration. A Herrera is encouraged to ride this out. I just feel that once the Stun is over, the Herrera has plenty of incentive to leap off and allow another to leap on.

[Sable]

Originally posted by bigmoe808:

snip

Honestly I'd say props to them if they pull that off, considering the target wouldn't be in the position or spot by the time another is ready to drop. Hitting that kind of precision on an unaware target would already be difficult. Doing it in an instance that the target is now alert and moving probably should be rewarded.

But if I remember correctly there is already something meant to be in play to prevent this as they didn't want it to be possible for players to be able to stun someone for eternity.

Cool down on the target, essentially.

Get stunned once, recover, and you cannot be stunned again for a brief moment. Prevents cheesing in combat so that a Tenontosaurus, for example, can't spam tail slam or kick and just render Carnotaurus stunned for 10 minutes.

Apply the same thing to D-P.

- Herrerasaurus 1: nails the stun
- Rides out stun time and jumps off
- Herrerasaurus 2: jumps and then bounces off because target is in cool down
- Herrerasaurus dies because Target is angry and they're on the ground

[bigmoe808]

Originally posted by The Stoat:

Originally posted by bigmoe808:

snip

Cool down on the target, essentially.

Oooo.

K. That could do it, then.

Edit: I still think Adrenaline Rush and Fat Storage should be considered as natural incentives.