Elder & Perk Systems

[Pablo Croft]

I sense many players aren't aware of these future game mechanics. My knowledge of these topics is limited, so I'll describe them as best I can.

The Elder System

Offers incentive to play past 100% adult growth. You gradually become an elder, and more powerful than a 100% grown version of your species. As time marches on, you'll gradually lose this power, and become weaker than a 100% grown version of yourself.

At which point, you rest for a final time, and naturally pass on. Why would you want to complete this cycle in it's entirety? The perk system.

The Perk System

What I say here is complete speculation on my part. Once you naturally pass on, and have completed your life cycle by resting a final time, you are eligible to earn perks. Perks gained carry over to your next life cycle. My questions are:

1. Do the perks you earn only apply to the species you earned them with?

2. Can you lose perks?

3. What will these perks do?

4. Why did the elder system and the perk system take a backseat to other current game mechanics?

It's early to ask these questions, but I put them out there all the same.

[Tregrenos]

The perk system should complement the gameplay, but not to the point not having any perks makes you totally outclassed by someone who has all the available perks. Here's how I'd like to see things go down:

- Perks can be discovered by performing different actions with your current dino, but upon unlocking them you're presented with a choice between 2-3 related perks. You can only choose 1 from this list to augment your gameplay.

- Each set of perk choices should be related to performing the action to unlock it. Sometimes the perk selection is available to all dinos, sometimes you get a perk selection unique to the species you're playing as, but it's impossible to have all the perks at once. This would allow for mixing and matching perks to better complement your style of gameplay and allow you to be different from the other players in your group.

- Once you unlock a perk you do not need to perform the action with future dinos of that species, but rather you're presented the perk choice over time by maintaining your diet. You could always perform the action again to unlock it earlier, but it's less of a hassle if the perk is difficult to unlock.

- Becoming an Elder is cosmetic-only, but comes with an Elder Perk choice. If at any point after this you die or lose the dino you have the Elder Perk choice unlocked for any subsequent dino of that species to start with and reaching Elder again is purely cosmetic. Unlike the other perks this one is per-server, as to prevent free-grows from effecting the only perk tied to age.

- At server selection you're shown a list of which species you've played as and which perks with that species you've unlocked. The Elder Perk would have an indicator to show you've unlocked it before, but also identify whether or not if you've unlocked it on this particular server.

[cianuro]

I think the perks will only apply to the species they were earned with, and they will be permanent.

[Pablo Croft]

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Perks can be discovered by performing different actions with your current dino, but upon unlocking them you're presented with a choice between 2-3 related perks. You can only choose 1 from this list to augment your gameplay.

I think the game itself should reward, or penalise a player during their life cycle, and not be tied to a perk. Perks should be a reward for completing your life cycle that will carry over to the next dinosaur of the same species. Should you die in that next life-cycle, and not complete it, you lose that selected perk.

Only being able to select 1 perk from a related list presents replay value, and that's a fantastic idea. If you can accumulate chosen perks, there's no reason to keep striving for them at some point.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Each set of perk choices should be related to performing the action to unlock it. Sometimes the perk selection is available to all dinos, sometimes you get a perk selection unique to the species you're playing as, but it's impossible to have all the perks at once. This would allow for mixing and matching perks to better complement your style of gameplay and allow you to be different from the other players in your group.

A general perk, or a species specific perk is fine. As long as these perks are only available on the server they were earned on, and also never permanent. You always need to be striving for perks.

That should always be the reward for living through your life cycle. Something that can be carried over to your next dinosaur, but should that dinosaur not live through their life cycle, the perk is gone. Until you again live through a life cycle, and are able to choose a perk from a list of related perks.

I'm 100% behind what you said about perks making you different than other dinosaurs/players of the same species. Path of Titans allows for that to happen during character creation:

1. A default type, or balanced type.

2. Increased attack at the cost of speed and defence.

3. Increased defence, at the cost of speed and attack.

4. Increased speed, at the cost of attack and defence.

A rather simple setup to balance. The dinosaur itself also looks different in appearance. If The Isle finds a way of doing this through perks, It can only mean a good thing for their game.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Once you unlock a perk you do not need to perform the action with future dinos of that species, but rather you're presented the perk choice over time by maintaining your diet. You could always perform the action again to unlock it earlier, but it's less of a hassle if the perk is difficult to unlock.

Again, I don't think a perk should ever be something you never strive to obtain, or maintain. Using a diet to maintain your perk is going in the wrong direction, IMO. Failing to keep up with your diet is something the game should penalise you for at the time. Surviving to keep your perk active should be enough, IMO.

If the dietary system isn't enough to encourage proper game play, that's a problem with the dietary system. I don't think some perks should be more difficult to unlock than others. It's enough that you need to survive in order to earn and keep perks? If you went with what I am saying.

If players feel losing a perk to death is unfair, or a hassle, we'll lose the idea behind it. Its important that PVP/survival has real weight to it. Players need to treat PVP situations with the same amount of risk management as RL survival. Living through their life-cycle, and then being rewarded with a perk is the way to go. It's simple, and to the point of the game, a survival game.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Becoming an Elder is cosmetic-only, but comes with an Elder Perk choice. If at any point after this you die or lose the dino you have the Elder Perk choice unlocked for any subsequent dino of that species to start with and reaching Elder again is purely cosmetic. Unlike the other perks this one is per-server, as to prevent free-grows from effecting the only perk tied to age.

An elder form perk seems like a good idea, and again might offer some diversity to elder game play (just like it does during normal game play) but I think w/e perk you choose during normal game play that would make you different from others of the same species would just naturally carry over into the elder form.

For example, if you're perk made you more defensive, at the cost of attack power and speed, this would be the type of elder you'd be. Only your choice there would be boosted. Or, if you don't have a perk, you're stats are boosted in a general/default way.

I'm leery about perks that go past the server you earn them on, TBH. Seeing as player servers will have different setups. Something applicable, or fair on one server may not be applicable or fair on another server. Could get overly complicated in a way that isn't needed.

It all depends on the perk, and this is true of any situation regarding perks. You are on the right track, IMO, by thinking perks should be maintained.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- At server selection you're shown a list of which species you've played as and which perks with that species you've unlocked. The Elder Perk would have an indicator to show you've unlocked it before, but also identify whether or not if you've unlocked it on this particular server.

When it comes to server browsing, I picture game mechanic toggling as being the first information worth seeing (when selecting a browser to begin with). When it comes to perks, it could show the active perk(s) you have for that server, I agree. It may also display the current dinosaur you have on that server, and that dinosaur's growth %. We may have that last part already, I don't remember. I don't play this very often, yet.

Originally posted by cianuro:

I think the perks will only apply to the species they were earned with, and they will be permanent.

As I stated above, I'm not crazy about permanent perks, as it can de-rail the idea behind it. It's also fair to say that it depends on the perk. We'll have to see what these perks are, first.

It can mean the game will get boring after a time, or perks will become a true part of the game loop.

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Pablo Croft:

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Perks can be discovered by performing different actions with your current dino, but upon unlocking them you're presented with a choice between 2-3 related perks. You can only choose 1 from this list to augment your gameplay.

I think the game itself should reward, or penalise a player during their life cycle, and not be tied to a perk. Perks should be a reward for completing your life cycle that will carry over to the next dinosaur of the same species. Should you die in that next life-cycle, and not complete it, you lose that selected perk.

Only being able to select 1 perk from a related list presents replay value, and that's a fantastic idea. If you can accumulate chosen perks, there's no reason to keep striving for them at some point.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Each set of perk choices should be related to performing the action to unlock it. Sometimes the perk selection is available to all dinos, sometimes you get a perk selection unique to the species you're playing as, but it's impossible to have all the perks at once. This would allow for mixing and matching perks to better complement your style of gameplay and allow you to be different from the other players in your group.

A general perk, or a species specific perk is fine. As long as these perks are only available on the server they were earned on, and also never permanent. You always need to be striving for perks.

That should always be the reward for living through your life cycle. Something that can be carried over to your next dinosaur, but should that dinosaur not live through their life cycle, the perk is gone. Until you again live through a life cycle, and are able to choose a perk from a list of related perks.

I'm 100% behind what you said about perks making you different than other dinosaurs/players of the same species. Path of Titans allows for that to happen during character creation:

1. A default type, or balanced type.

2. Increased attack at the cost of speed and defence.

3. Increased defence, at the cost of speed and attack.

4. Increased speed, at the cost of attack and defence.

A rather simple setup to balance. The dinosaur itself also looks different in appearance. If The Isle finds a way of doing this through perks, It can only mean a good thing for their game.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Once you unlock a perk you do not need to perform the action with future dinos of that species, but rather you're presented the perk choice over time by maintaining your diet. You could always perform the action again to unlock it earlier, but it's less of a hassle if the perk is difficult to unlock.

Again, I don't think a perk should ever be something you never strive to obtain, or maintain. Using a diet to maintain your perk is going in the wrong direction, IMO. Failing to keep up with your diet is something the game should penalise you for at the time. Surviving to keep your perk active should be enough, IMO.

If the dietary system isn't enough to encourage proper game play, that's a problem with the dietary system. I don't think some perks should be more difficult to unlock than others. It's enough that you need to survive in order to earn and keep perks? If you went with what I am saying.

If players feel losing a perk to death is unfair, or a hassle, we'll lose the idea behind it. Its important that PVP/survival has real weight to it. Players need to treat PVP situations with the same amount of risk management as RL survival. Living through their life-cycle, and then being rewarded with a perk is the way to go. It's simple, and to the point of the game, a survival game.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- Becoming an Elder is cosmetic-only, but comes with an Elder Perk choice. If at any point after this you die or lose the dino you have the Elder Perk choice unlocked for any subsequent dino of that species to start with and reaching Elder again is purely cosmetic. Unlike the other perks this one is per-server, as to prevent free-grows from effecting the only perk tied to age.

An elder form perk seems like a good idea, and again might offer some diversity to elder game play (just like it does during normal game play) but I think w/e perk you choose during normal game play that would make you different from others of the same species would just naturally carry over into the elder form.

For example, if you're perk made you more defensive, at the cost of attack power and speed, this would be the type of elder you'd be. Only your choice there would be boosted. Or, if you don't have a perk, you're stats are boosted in a general/default way.

I'm leery about perks that go past the server you earn them on, TBH. Seeing as player servers will have different setups. Something applicable, or fair on one server may not be applicable or fair on another server. Could get overly complicated in a way that isn't needed.

It all depends on the perk, and this is true of any situation regarding perks. You are on the right track, IMO, by thinking perks should be maintained.

Originally posted by Tregrenos:

- At server selection you're shown a list of which species you've played as and which perks with that species you've unlocked. The Elder Perk would have an indicator to show you've unlocked it before, but also identify whether or not if you've unlocked it on this particular server.

When it comes to server browsing, I picture game mechanic toggling as being the first information worth seeing (when selecting a browser to begin with). When it comes to perks, it could show the active perk(s) you have for that server, I agree. It may also display the current dinosaur you have on that server, and that dinosaur's growth %. We may have that last part already, I don't remember. I don't play this very often, yet.

Originally posted by cianuro:

I think the perks will only apply to the species they were earned with, and they will be permanent.

As I stated above, I'm not crazy about permanent perks, as it can de-rail the idea behind it. It's also fair to say that it depends on the perk. We'll have to see what these perks are, first.

It can mean the game will get boring after a time, or perks will become a true part of the game loop.

The issue I have with perks being tied only to a full life cycle is that to promotes AFK or non-interactive growth. It's less to do with you actively playing the game and more to do with how patient and unseen you become, but even more harsh to anyone who actually goes through this process only to lose their dino to something like a DC or server wipe. You'd also be giving trolls and KoSers even more drive to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ by knowing they could ruin whatever time someone had spent alive. By making the perks too risky for little reward they become devalued and by making them too powerful it promotes Discord-only associations and megapacks for safety to make it to the next growth cycle.

By having the perks tied to your account it promotes trying out different dinos to unlock them as well as trying out different perk combos. However, I'm also totally fine by making the perks server-restrictive as we'll likely have servers that have Elder and Perks turned off. By making what you've unlocked become automatic over time it promotes active gameplay without worrying about how to unlock the next perk if you'd rather just wait it out. Lastly, by having the Elder Perk tied to the server and your account it means you'll have to actually grow a dino to the point of being an elder to re-obtain it on that server, preventing the Elder Perk from being obtained on a server that can advance your dino.

At the end of the day this is supposed to be a game. If something takes away from or makes active gameplay less appealing it's a bad decision. I'm already iffy with the possibilities of what the Elder System means, but by making the Elder Perk obtainable like explained above it makes the elder status less imperative while still rewarding reaching that level in the first place.

[Madkou]

The dietary system should add a pretty good amount of survival difficulty (hopefully) from what I've heard and read. So, if you goof around too much, you'll probly die off pretty fast, unless you have a group babysitting ya. Unless the dietary system ends up just being more variety to eat and the same kinda game play happens...hope not! That would be kinda useless lol. Like PoTs setup (if PoT were a survival game but it isn't rly setup or played that way).

If a group is a travelling meat wagon, I'll find a friendly way of leaving the group lol. Sometimes, you're better off solo, right? :) Or, you'll run into them again at some point with the need for an easy meal. To be clear tho, I don't give info on former groups to new groups. Not rly fair? I'm sure ppl do all the time, tho.

@treg, When you say "less imperative while still rewarding" what does that mean? More of a relaxed setup? I like flexibility, as that's the mark of good development (ya don't want a left or right choice and you live or die thing at all times lol) but you gotta stick by something. Or, it represents nothing to players, and maybe something to others.

Or, that translates to some players will be playing along and others won't be, but their both doing ok. And that also translates into oil and water on your server, and those don't mix, of course.

[NaughtyWookie]

It's neat how you all write essays about your make believe stuff when the devs themselves have told you what they want.

It's weird how you need paragraphs for one line of meat.

Odd you hide in private servers while talking like you know what the game needs.

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Madkou:

@treg, When you say "less imperative while still rewarding" what does that mean? More of a relaxed setup? I like flexibility, as that's the mark of good development (ya don't want a left or right choice and you live or die thing at all times lol) but you gotta stick by something. Or, it represents nothing to players, and maybe something to others.

What I meant is that the Elder status SHOULD reward a bonus perk, but once you actually make it to Elder level that bonus becomes a permanent perk when choosing that species again. This should be the only perk tied to your growth cycle as doing this with too many perks effectively makes those perks a "waiting game" that the devs should be trying to avoid. By having this perk and others a choice between 2-3 effects it adds to the replay value as you'll wanna mix and match the perk choices to complement how you want to play the game rather than the perks being treated like a collection with whoever has the biggest collection being the strongest.

I'd rather the perks not be related to combat at all, perhaps 1 that offers you the choice between being more offensive or defensive, but rather have the perks relate to survival and gameplay. For example, considering how at one point the N-Type Dilo was supposed to be aquatic what if it had a perk that could allow for such a playstyle VS the alternative of stronger legs that allow it to jump? The Dilo would be presented with 2 gameplay choices in that it could either become a more adept swimmer OR the option of being able to jump to safer locations. It couldn't have both as this is a choice only 1 perk offers. Such drastic gamechangers might be the Elder Perk that's now unlocked whenever you die or wanna start over again and try different perk combos.

[Madkou]

Ah ok, just making sure I wasn't reading the wrong thing outta that. :) I'm down for the elder thing to be more than just PVP power. Some variety couldn't hurt there nope. The biggest collection of perks thing is a no no, I agree 100% there!

[Tregrenos]

Becoming an Elder shouldn't give you bonus stats as you're well past your prime at that point, but with age comes wisdom, hence the Elder Perk becoming unlocked. When you die and restart it's like you've passed your knowledge to the next generation. With the perk being unlocked upon actually making it that far in life becoming an Elder again is purely cosmetic that tells other players "I've survived this long."

[Pablo Croft]

Thank you, that was helpful, 123.

[Madkou]

Some players think of 100% growth as their end game, and others think growth is just boring anyways. Other players don't think their game starts UNTIL their full grown. So, if we address all of those...

"My game ends at full growth. There's no reason to keep going." Maybe the elder and perks systems will give those players a clear and defined reason to live out the entire life cycle if it's defined as the "end game."

"Growth is boring! I'm forced to sit in a bush the entire time!" Sitting in a bush to grow was always a choice for me. Pr, logging on when there were no players on. The only time (while growing or as an adult) that I've needed to sit in a bush is when I do see danger that I can't handle, and surviving means hiding for that instant.

I also had the rules of the official servers, and admins to enforce them, so that also played a part in how I could enjoy game play too. In a setting w/o any structure at all save for PVP, everything I said above means little lol.

Bottom line is, I'm constantly active all the same at any stage of growth when the server allows for it properly. Some player servers make it too safe to grow, and that's also counter-productive in a survival game, IMO.

That said...

In theory (from what I've read up on), the dietary system will add more to living, and by association...

- Growth should be even more entertaining for me with new challenges to find food, etc.

- Variety in food. Variety is the spice of life. You can eat a lot of food, and some of it's good for you and some of it's bad for ya. Just like RL. Not just meat and berry bushes (along side the evrima grazing of course). This may also factor into the cannibal situation too. It'll be a good idea for some, and a bad idea for others? Or, just slightly less tolerable either way? We'll see.

Some players may end up hating the idea of messing with same species eating altogether? Defining your dino as a cannibal, or not, might not sit well with some players and their fave dinos. Consider they've had it a certain way already, so they know what will be missed. You can't miss something you never knew about.

- Something to help control over-grouping, and the wrong kinda mixing? My guts saying this will be debatable, given how 3rd party tactics usually de-rail or present advantages to game play that they shouldn't... (Lets hope this is just an issue that comes with ongoing development).

But, let's see how the fine tuning works out when there's trouble? I don't care how it's managed, just as long as it's managed in a meaningful way and we can ALL say: "I never really notice over-grouping and the wrong kinda mixing/care-bearing on officials anymore."

Players might try it, but they are ultimately doomed to failure, and will never see a full life-cycle. If it matters to players to see a full life-cycle, that is lol. Maintaining perks will be important, however they do that, but it's gotta be something players can't find workarounds for.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the pachy plays! :)