"Remove AI," "Remove Apexes" and other popular opinions last year.

[T1-M4T]

I'm truly curious, with EVRIMA out, everybody got a taste of the consequences of these two things happening, the removal of AI and Apexes (well dinosaurs in general, but we'll get to that).

Why were these opinions popular? Well, because people felt the game was not balanced. A lot of people felt AI made the game too easy for carnivores, created an overpopulation of apexes, made packing too easy etc. etc. The latter was popular because it was a more direct solution: remove the dinosaurs that were far stronger than anything else, because nothing deserves to be 6X stronger or whatever than anything else.

Here's a classic example I remember participating in last year: https://steamcommunity.com/app/376210/discussions/14/1642039362999129519/

Of course it started "just for adults/sub-adults" but it quickly became "AI shouldn't spawn for carnivores period." If you held these opinions back in the day, do you still believe so?

Keep in mind this post may come across me using EVRIMA as a "I told you so" but I insist that this is not the case. After all, EVRIMA is a bit... different than simply what removing the AI in something like legacy would cause. I'm just wondering if the fact that there is no AI and no de facto APEX in EVRIMA has swayed the community at large's opinion on this matter, provided it did not change long ago.

[brownie689]

You must have never played this game. A Rex can not survive on AI and Neither can a Giga. When a server is full or nearly full there is not enough ai spawns to keep you from starving to death. You MUST hunt other players.

The game is NOT supposed to be balanced. That's the whole point of different dinos. You should NOT be able to kill an apex with a Utah. You should RUN AWAY. This is not a FPS. This is a dino survival game.

[T1-M4T]

Originally posted by brownie689:

You must have never played this game. A Rex can not survive on AI and Neither can a Giga. When a server is full or nearly full there is not enough ai spawns to keep you from starving to death. You MUST hunt other players.

The game is NOT supposed to be balanced. That's the whole point of different dinos. You should NOT be able to kill an apex with a Utah. You should RUN AWAY. This is not a FPS. This is a dino survival game.

You must have not read the OP. I do not agree with the popular opinions of the past, quite the opposite in fact. In the post I linked you can actually see me later on argue why removing the AI spawn system would be a bad idea. I was just curious how the community's opinions have changed over time.

[Jelly the Fish]

Instead of saying remove AI, they should have said "Prevent AI from spawning in front of carnivores when they are hungry." This would make it harder to grow apexes, and it would kind of prevent more of a population of the "high tiers." They couldn't rely on feeding off of AI, knowing the fact that they won't starve to death.

[Mochi]

Any carni in legacy right now can simply go to a water source, (10 min walk or so from most spawn points) Afk in a bush, then wait until you are hungry to get up and go eat the Ai that spawned for you. The only real threat is getting spotted by another carni, which can be easily avoided even on servers with 200 people due to the sheer size of the map and density of its' forests. I've done this multiple times with every carni including rex and giga. I think Ai in the current state of the game is necessary because of how difficult it can be to find other players. But it's so unbalanced and makes the game boring. But apexes aren't unbalanced in my opinion, any non-apex can outrun rex or giga if it's smart and is paying attention. But it is kind of situational because different servers have different populations, rules, alt-turn, etc.

[bigmoe808]

Originally posted by brownie689:

You must have never played this game. A Rex can not survive on AI and Neither can a Giga. When a server is full or nearly full there is not enough ai spawns to keep you from starving to death. You MUST hunt other players.

...I have to disagree here on several things.

A Giga, at least from personal experience, can survive on AI provided it is spawning within reasonable time. I'm not certain how well a Rex fairs, but, obviously, it's more than possible given how much people wanted to get rid of AI spawning on hungry carnivores and specifically for apex. It is effectively a free ride to adulthood, and, sense Rexes don't move around much when not pressed, it is a form sustain at adulthood.

Originally posted by brownie689:

The game is NOT supposed to be balanced. That's the whole point of different dinos. You should NOT be able to kill an apex with a Utah. You should RUN AWAY. This is not a FPS. This is a dino survival game.

And this is where you're wrong.

Of course the game is meant to be balanced, balance is the whole point of making it really difficult for a Utah to 1v1 a Rex which has the greater health and power, just as it is balance that why the Apex's lack of stam Regan makes it easily punishable by the Utah. It's not imbalance that it is challenging for the Utah, it's simply enforcing one particular choice for meta.

[Kami]

Originally posted by brownie689:

You must have never played this game. A Rex can not survive on AI and Neither can a Giga. When a server is full or nearly full there is not enough ai spawns to keep you from starving to death. You MUST hunt other players.

In legacy, there is not a single carnivore that can't be fed indefinitely off AI. Not one.

Originally posted by brownie689:

The game is NOT supposed to be balanced. That's the whole point of different dinos. You should NOT be able to kill an apex with a Utah. You should RUN AWAY. This is not a FPS. This is a dino survival game.

...You play no alt servers.

AI shouldn't be removed, but our current AI system should be. AI shouldn't just be easy food for a Carnivore that makes it so carnis are the ones that need to put in minimal effort for their food, and herbis are the ones having more trouble. That being said the AI system we're going to get should also be scrapped. Officials should bump their player count up a lot higher and use AI to supplement the ecosystem, NOT be the main part of it.

Apexes should also be removed, but not because they're too powerful or whatever. Two reasons. First, to let the devs balance the ecosystem, but that's more about holding off adding larger fauna. Second, to let players find their new main, because if what the devs want ends up happening, only 90% of all players will ever get to adult apex with their time in the game, and I doubt anybody will get it consistently enough to main as one.

[Souretsu]

I don't know if anyone here has seen it or not but Amarok (team's new AI programmer) has been showing off work on his AI. He's got Utah and Tenonto wandering around with hearing/line of sight detection. I didn't see this particular one myself, but I heard he had it so AI Utah helped if your Utah attacked a Tenonto nearby.

[Herr Morlock]

Removing the AI from EVRIMA was a perfect solution for the problems, "the Isle of Rexes" had in the past.

In nature, there have to be way more herbivores than carnivores (IFRC double or triple or even quadriple amount of herbies) to make the eco-system sustainable. And since nobody wants hard restrictions of the maximum amount of carnivores on a server, killing the AI snacks was the only solution left.

Now Utahs have to starve or even kill their own species (if the pack gets too large to survive) and cannibalize, if they do not want to starve...
Pefect. As it should be. Be gone are the times were bigger and more is ALWAYS better then smaller and lesser numbers...

I welcome that, although I do play carnivores (i.e. Utah) at times, too.

[Souretsu]

Using real life ratios for ecosystems is a bit unreasonable, since there is technically an infinite number of prey items in a server as long as there are players.

[Herr Morlock]

The "technically infite amount of prey" depends on how much food each prey gives to a carnivore, how much food said carnivore needs per time unit to not die and how long it will take until said carnivore will be able to kill another prey, again.

My proposal may be uncomfortable to some of you "only-carnivore-players", yes. But unreasonable? No.
All the whining about starving to death as Utah simply strengthens my argument.

Because, right now, there are too few herbivores on the server and too many carnivores (as usual). That's why food is spare (without AI snacks). So playing carnivores will get less attractive to some players, eventually, leading to them either uninstalling the game or choosing herbivores in near future. In that way, a stabile environment will form some day, with less carnivores and more herbivores. As it should be.

I wonder how many players actually have never ever tried to play as herbivore, once? No wonder, since it is so much "cooler" to have sharp teeth and kill other beings than being "weak" prey. At least in the mind of a 10 year old (which may indeed by one of the main target audiences for such a game)...

You guys, want your "isle of Rexes" back? Fine.
I want an "isle" where the eco-system is believable. i.e. where there is lots of DIVERSITY in the fauna, and not a only one ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ meta which leads to only one species being dominant on all servers (or to only one kind of dino-types -> i.e. carnivores)...

Take a look at the pictures of the shop, where you will see lots of different dinos. THAT's the game I was purchasing (at least in my mind as customer), not an island with only Rexes, and perhaps one Giga or Dilo sometime, after 20 other Rexes...

[Bill_Clinton_Supreme]

Originally posted by Leader of Pants:

You must have not read the OP. I do not agree with the popular opinions of the past, quite the opposite in fact. In the post I linked you can actually see me later on argue why removing the AI spawn system would be a bad idea. I was just curious how the community's opinions have changed over time.

ignore that guy, pretty sure he's a troll and he doesn't play on Alt Turn servers and is against alt turn.

[Bill_Clinton_Supreme]

Also Apexes are a problem for these 3 reasons

1. They're mathematically superior to animals in lower tiers
2. They can only really be countered by other apexes, thus creating a stale meta that asks only for apexes
3. There is nothing to challenge them, Allo v. Sucho is a matchup that requires a lot of effort from both players, though an Apex downs both of them in about 1 or 2 bites.

AI is also bad for these reasons, most of which are thankfully confirmed for change.

- AI is absolutely braindead and can't run away or fight back from threats it could, you could literally not have brain cells and they'd still be easy to hunt.
- They spawn near carnivores when they're hungry, this mechanic alone is the No. 1 cause of degeneracy in The Isle, followed closely by Anthomnia

[Eyeless]

I don't really have a horse in this race regarding apexes, but I remember hunting as a carnivore being incredibly boring / unrewarding on account of the map being way too big for the playercount.

As a newer player who dropped off after a week, I found the game didn't respect my time invested or give me anything more engaging to do besides walk, starve, die, and repeat for the majority of the game.

(In my opinion) Hunting other players would probably be a lot more interesting and viable if we had sensibly sized maps that wouldn't completely screw your run over if you spawned on the coast, or in a forest no one ever visited. Maybe landscapes that encouraged natural conflict with how the resources are spaced around terrains more ideal for ambushing or dino-brawling.

This could naturally encourage teamwork on both sides, or conflict over who gets what resources.

[ratel]

People who cry over no AI are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hunters and that is a fact.

[Roman 45]

Originally posted by Krona:

- They spawn near carnivores when they're hungry, this mechanic alone is the No. 1 cause of degeneracy in The Isle, followed closely by Anthomnia

LoL...followed by Anthomnia! :)) How you mean that?