The Carnivores & Herbivores

[Why Watt]

In The Isle, there has always been fierce discussions as to how balance should be handled between predator and prey, and often times, one of the two factions has gotten the short end of the stick and felt, well, shafted with the long, pointed end right up where the sun don't shine. While the times Carnivores have overwhelmingly demolished herbivores outnumber the times where the opposite was the case, it has happened and to claim otherwise isn't true.

The true, fundamental issue has always really boiled down to this:

When you make herbivores really fun, viable and powerful, they end up abused, and turned into predators by a certain portion of the playerbase, that includes people like me. That's not to say herbivores taking the initiative is bad, or unrealistic, or wrong. However, it has been them being used as hunting machines, that do not need to be successful to sustain their purge-squads, that has been a problem.

However, when you make the herbivores the complete opposite, i;e, pretty much ♥♥♥♥ing ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, you basically remove any and all herbivores from the ecosystem. So the lands become populated with 90+% Carnivores, and no 'herds' from of things that 'must form herds cuz they should be weaker'.

Both, of those situations, are anything but ideal, or healthy, or what we should want and have in The Isle.

What I am about to propose is a shift in the dynamic, one that will make Carnivores require more skill to hunt Herbivores while also making them less potent at going out of their way to smash these overall weaker Carnivores. I'm going to propose broad, general, rule-of-thumb changes to both factions, over their life cycles, to fit them more neatly into what their intended faction roles are;

Carnivores: the skill based, thrill-seeker faction that can mostly get their full potential from solo-play
Herbivores: the social-oriented, nesting-in-buddies migrating faction which get the most from being in herds.

I will not be going into specific stat change proposals, but general ideas to allow herbivores to have superior outright stats, so HP, damage, weight, to many of their carnivore counterparts, w/o them being abused and broken-powerful - or even something for carnivores to ♥♥♥♥♥ and moan about. While they may be food, they will not be walking snacks, and they will, hopefully, be prosperous and actually exist on servers to be hunted in the first place.

Now, here I go!

Movement Changes

As strange as this will sound, broadly speaking, most Carnivores & Herbivores don't actually have a toolkit, in terms of stamina, stamina regen, trot speed, and sprint speed, that they would logically have.

Carnivores are adapted to patrol their ideal hunting grounds, and when the prey leave, they hunker down... they don't migrate. If they fail a hunt, they don't keep pursuing, they sit back and recuperate. They are typically faster than their prey, but less enduring.

Herbivores are adapted to migrate, to travel to where they can find food to sustain the herd. They need to be able to keep moving without halting for rest, their stomachs, urging them on. When fleeing, they use the fact a predator has focused on another target and use that time to save themselves; and if being chased, they juke, and aim to out-last, their attackers.

I'm about to blow your minds, but here's a revelation: Carnivores and Herbivores ATM... are flipped.

What this means is that, when you have been hunted by Aggro Herbivores, well, it's because they play like Carnivores. When they aren't actually meant to! It's not 'omg people are so toxic hunting with herbivores', no, it's because statwise they are actually built like predators are.
Which brings a special kinda mind♥♥♥♥; 90% of a server being carnivores, when their movement actually handles like herbivores... food for thought, eh?

Broadly speaking, of course, but I concluded that 99% of the problems we can have in carnivores vs. herbivores come from how they have the other's toolkits.
Herbivores have bad stamina regen when trotting, lower trot-speeds and stamina pools, last longer without food, are faster.
Carnivores are slower, need food more often, have higher stamina pools and trot speed and typically are better stat-oriented to cross-country.

What makes Endurance predators, like dogs, or people, so effective, is that they are distinct in using basically the same 'toolkit' as a herbivore does. Endurance predators struggle against other rival predators because they are inherently geared like prey, and not typical predator.

Therefore, excluding the cases of Allosaurus and Giganotosaurus, who are, by in-game design, endurance hunters, + Suchomimus, who has a build proper to a semi-aquatic, but all other dinosaurs would have their locomotion overhauled.

Carnotaurus:
-Increased Stamina Regen when resting
-Reduced Trot Speed & Stamina pool - the latter getting a substantial nerf.
Ceratosaurus:
-Increased Stamina Regen when resting & ambush multiplier increase
-Reduced Sprinting Turn & Stamina pool - both getting a substantial nerf.
Diabloceratops:
-Increased Sprinting Turn & Trot speed & Stamina pool - the latter two getting a substantial buff
-Reduced Sprinting Speed - only seeing a slight decrease
Dilophosaurus:
-Increased Ambush Multiplier & Walk Speed (thus crouch speed by extension)
-Reduced Trotting Stamina Regen & Stamina pool - the latter getting a substantial nerf.
Dryosaurus:
-Increased Trot Speed
-Reduced Sprinting Speed
Gallimimus:
-Increased Trot Speed & Stamina Regen - the latter getting a substantial buff
-Reduced Sprinting Speed
Maiasaura:
-Increased Stamina Pool & Sprinting Turn - the latter getting a substantial buff
-Reduced Sprinting Speed - receiving a substantial nerf
Pachycephalosaurus:
-Increased Trot Speed
-Reduced Sprint Speed
Parasaurolophus:
-Increased Trot Speed & Sprinting Turn & Stamina regen - all getting substantial buffs
Triceratops:
-Increased Sprinting Turn & can Regen Stamina when Trotting
Tyrannosaurus:
-Increased Stamina Regen resting & Walk Speed (thus crouch speed by extension)
Utahraptor:
-Increased Stamina Regen when resting
-Reduced Sprinting Turn & Stamina Pool

While these changes to movement may seem extreme, and make dinosaurs you play as fundamentally feel very different from how they currently are, remember, most do not have properties that fitted predators and prey, respectively. Some were close; and they received very few changes, given this. Others, such as Utahraptor, are very different from how people are used to them being.

By making predator and prey actually play closer to what they should, given their inherent nature, it will hopefully drive down both Megapacking - because Carnivores are globally less-suited overall to travel - as well as Herbivores Hunting Parties when they happen to have actually good stats. Fixing their movement... allows you to make them balanced with eachother without leading them to be broken.

Nesting Changes

If you want Herbivores to be the more 'social' experience, of course you need to incentive them to nest frequently, to replenish their numbers or just gather up to form a herd to begin with.

So what I propose to give herbivores tangible advantages, in regards to nesting, would be allowing them to create larger nests, with mutliple females contributing. Instead of an isolated nest raised by parents, you could make a nesting site to allow herds to flourish.

How would this work, what would it do, and what would the benefits be?

A nesting colony would be established when enough female herbivores of the same species would make nests in close-proximity to each other. What a nesting colony would essentially be... is a spawnpoint for Herbivores of said species.
If a colony is active, when you spawn in as a member of that herbivore species, the game would automatically send you a nest-invite. You can, of course, refuse. But, should you accept, you will be spawned in as a member of the group, albeit with none of the mothers being yours, specifically - therefore, you have the skin you selected, but you are a hatchling :P

In proximity to the nesting site, Herbivore Food Plant would respawn MUCH faster, thus enabling the forming of thriving herds while also supporting the adults who stay around. The site would continue to act as both a 'spawnpoint' and a generator of plants provided it remains active.

The nesting site, being active, would require there to be as many members of that species as there were nests needed to make the site, regardless of gender, in the area, along with there being 500 food across all the nests. It can remain 'inactive' for 12hrs before it would destroy itself, but would return to being active once these two requirement is met.

The nesting site, not technically belonging to any given individual, would remain online, and thus, able to be destroyed - if all the nests are broken, this would permanently disable the nesting site.

This... would be a huge edge for herbivores to ACTUALLY FORM HERDS. If someone dies, no more frustrating trek across the land, searching far and wide, dying to rexes every other lake until they just nest you back in. You could just, outright, spawn with a herd. A guarantee of that. Hell, when in the Character Select screen, perhaps it could show if there are any active Nesting Sites when viewing the Herbivore Faction?

Making herbivores more appealing in their social aspect by giving them actual mechanics to encourage what makes them special, to facilitate it? A good idea in my eyes, and could go a long way towards making herbivores more appealing; instead of stumbling along the V3 beaches as a juvi Galli, you could spawn as a hatchling, but already amongst a herd that has formed?
Oh and it would make herbivores the ultimate streaming dinosaur, just broadcast the server after having made a nesting site and watch the herd form before your eyes!

Lastly, some changes to Juveniles

While that change to nesting greatly improves the QoL for herbivores we must also acknowledge the struggles of juveniles, especially those... not being raised. This isn't specifically a herbivore and carnivore issue, however, it often becomes a problem; more viable herbivores means more of them, and it's a well known fact that many herbivores kill juvenile carnivores on sight. I'm not saying this isn't justifiable or realistic, however, it IS offputting, and that's not really up for debate. Sure, herbivores irl kill the young of their predators, and sure, letting that juvi live to one day hunt you isn't smart... but nobody has every said sincerely "GG Maias, my Juvi Alo had such a blast being ran down and squashed!"

In general, Juvenile Carnivores would have very long lasting ambushes, roughly 30 seconds long, that would charge in 1 second instead of 3-4+. This is because ambushing... would be their escape mechanism, and not really for hunting. The ambush sprint of juvenile Carnivores would achieve speeds close to, but not as good as, their adult forms; a Juvi Dilo might ambush and achieve 36kmh.
They would be adapted to use it to flee... but after their ambush is done, they would all be balanced to be left on scarcely any stamina. Their resting stamina regen would be good, mind you, to allow them to dart away, hide, and have enough Stamina to dart away if need-be.

Furthermore, all juvenile Carnivores would have superior turning to their adult. This would allow them to escape their adult forms, provided they ambush; a juvi Giga would be able to use it's ambush to potentially escape an adult Giga.

Juvenile Herbivores would be blessed on a different front, having base sprint speeds that can keep up with their adults. Not being faster, again, and also they would have less endurance. But their speed would allow them to run for safety, and escape potential danger, again, like the carnivores. However, their stamina regen would be good across the board, trotting included, albeit their resting recovery would be outclassed by carnivore juveniles, who need to be more independent.

This would make juveniles, if you will, somewhat like a kitten; it's moving at similar speeds to an adult, in a mad run for safety, but cannot sustain that run, it isn't adapted for it.

I hope you have all enjoyed this read. Please share your thoughts in the comments below

[Rouger]

Like with your suggestion on growth times for apexs, I support the broad strokes of what you've got going here with some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the minutiae that having to actually try might allievate.

I just hope the devs think this might be worth while to pursue

[ISI]

I guess it is fine, it's not a bad food for thought.

I don't hate the thought of a hunts being challenging, However, I hate the idea of herbs being impossible to hunt. I think that this would all be fine, if preds had the ability to end a hunt quickly, as in real life larger predator can effectively wrestle a prey down and end it. unless your a pursuit hunter like a hyena or a wild dog, long hunt increasing go into the favor of the herb. For instance a rex would absolute crush a trike spine (it's true, i know not every likes that idea), but as of right now you need to commit many bite to finish off a trike. now that may not be a problem if it is a solo trike vs a solo/duo rex (as you really just need a leg break) but a herd of trikes that's where your impenetrable wall starts forming. There is no possible way a rex player will be able to split a trike from its group, (not happening were humans it makes no sense). In all honesty a rex or multi rexes shouldn't really be able to get through a trike herd. The must optimal thing to do would be to hunt a solo trike one who is growing or living solo. but with your nesting idea, who in there right mind would chose to grow solo when they can be protect by a impenetrable shield for most of there life( in context with a trike since there are sever limits.) what is 30 mins. or a hour of growth time when you have nothing to worry about. Sure this is different for a para and a rex, as a rex would bulldoze through them, but effectively you just cut out a source of prey for creature of similar tiers.


not really much else, other then carno is meant to be nomadic, so it should still have high stamina and fast trot, it is the most human-like predator (in the context of the isle and the way it is meant to hunt and live

[Zebrafreedom]

Your changes will cause that herbs will be all endurance predator and thats all. They will go from lake to lake killing all preds.
If you lower herbs speed for example maia pachy or para,no one will play them,because they will be food for everyone.
Juvs would not be able to run away from big herb with eternal endurance,eating fast growing plants.

People dont play herbs as they mostly feels themselves as predators and play for killing, as most games is about killing. Also playing adult herbs could be quiet boring.

To make herbs more interesting there could be several changes.
1) make seasons,floods etc. That will force to migrate.
2)make it easier for herbs to find their own specie.
3) make different specie to communicate for mixherding. It could be grouped like ceraopsian chat, or hadrosaur chat.
4) make different plant in different location. Maybe some healing plants.
5) give some prize for nesting. Maybe to become a mature adult with better stats, or to spawn after death as sub.

Also all dinos need interesting features and unique mechanics.
But they could be added only after dinos will spot pass through each other, there will be affinity system.
For now, para,pachy and trike need little buff. Apexes need little debuff.

[Leobyn]

Really well thought out and an interesting read. I like the ideas, but I don’t agree with the last part about changes to Juvies. They offer the most exciting, suspenseful gameplay. They are difficult to survive with. The horror/survival in The Isle is derived mostly from this stage of your dinosaurs life. To make it easier for them would take away some of this experience.

[MultiDavid]

Originally posted by Leobyn:

Really well thought out and an interesting read. I like the ideas, but I don’t agree with the last part about changes to Juvies. They offer the most exciting, suspenseful gameplay. They are difficult to survive with. The horror/survival in The Isle is derived mostly from this stage of your dinosaurs life. To make it easier for them would take away some of this experience.

He doesn't want it to be easier, he wants it to be fair, for atm it is all RNG.

[Why Watt]

Originally posted by MultiDavid:

Originally posted by Leobyn:

Really well thought out and an interesting read. I like the ideas, but I don’t agree with the last part about changes to Juvies. They offer the most exciting, suspenseful gameplay. They are difficult to survive with. The horror/survival in The Isle is derived mostly from this stage of your dinosaurs life. To make it easier for them would take away some of this experience.

He doesn't want it to be easier, he wants it to be fair, for atm it is all RNG.

Bingo.

Juvies would have a chance at escape, if you react quickly, are vigillant, and use terrain. ATM you are basically dead in the water the instant you are spotted. No counterplay. I gave them counterplay; an adult Dilo would EASILY be able to ambush a juvi Dilo if it catches it off guard, however, if it simply stumbles across a juvi Dilo it would have the chance to escape. Slower and less endurance... but better turn, for a 30 second window of similar speed to the adult to use to find cover.

[Leobyn]

Fair is good. It’ll make for nice gameplay. It’ll definitely make predators have to work harder, which would make it more fun (at least for me). Thinking about it ecologically, though, juvies survive by having protection (parents/herd), or are born with many brothers and sisters, or having some adaptation that helps survival. They are not surviving just because they are agile. To this end I think it would be great to see more variation in dinosaur species in this regard. Maybe a dilo can change its skin color like a chameleon to better hide, or other mechanics that give advantages to make it fair besides running/turning fast.

[Voyager]

You forgot about people like me ( and there is plenty of us ) who prefer herbivores even if they are weaker.

It's not only matter of PvP stats or abilities but how people are playing. There is no perfect balance, people will always find a way to find a hole in the system, and since we got what we got, I rather play as underdog than "Zebra on crack chasing Lions across savannah".

Maybe my entire motivation to play some herbies is in beeing chased, weak, harmless ?
Not everyone like to be killing machine.

I really think there is no possible balance to encourage players to drop dinosaurs like Tyrannosaurus Rex and make them play some herbivore species just becouse they recieve buff.

[rustyOkin]

1) juvie changes: they really need a change in gameplay and that's a good approach!
2) herbivore nesting: really like it, makes sense

3) herbi & carni balance:
The general idea is good but I have my doubts if it actually works as intended.
Giving a certain dinosaur (no matter if carni or herbi) great stamina AND trot speed is very dangerous. I think with these changes Herbis might run down carnis like they always did when they were broken as soon as they spot one = carnis eventually running out of stamina and getting crushed.

How do you balance lets say the interaction between a dilo and a para? Will the para be able to run/walk down the dilo if it can't hide? And even if the Dilo manages to hide I don't think that's the interaction we'd like to see. You and I both know that this WILL be abused if possible...

Of course these are just considerations but you get my point.

I still think herbis should fall under the same rule in terms of balance as carnis:
"If I can't escape I gotta be able to fight, if I can't fight I gotta be able to escape"

Of course there are exceptions and not all interactions have to be balanced around basic mobility.
The best example would be aquatic mechanics, we can see how Sucho has an easy time escaping even Gigas when staying near water even though Giga can easily trot down a Sucho. But there are other examples as well like turn-radius/juking, burrows, tree climbing... stuff like that

Still differences between carnis and herbis are clearly needed!
The thing is herbis are easy to survive as when it comes to sustaining yourself, you can hide in the middle of nowhere and munch on a bush. Carnis are more difficult to survive as (well not really atm because AI is busted but that's another topic) and are forced to move.
I think, and that's just my suggestion, in order to even out the amount of carnis and herbis on a server a bit at least the juvie stages of carnivores should generally be "better" than the juvie stages of herbis. The adult versions on the other hand should be balanced properly in terms of power.
I totally agree with you that adult herbis shouldn't be free meals like they are right now, no matter if they are fighters or runners. I'm just afraid your changes might be just as problematic as the current imbalance

PS: The argument many people make that herbis should generally be weaker than carnis AS ADULTS is complete utter BULL****! This is the exact reason why we don't see any herbis right now, not to mention that carnis can easily group up just like them.
I only play carnis but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ give those herbis some love

[Why Watt]

Yeah Rusty, was generally going to go for Juvi Herbivores being weaker than their Carnivore counterparts.

But, anyways, if you want to increase the number of herbivores, you generally have to make carnivores, well, harder; a while back, when V3 was first re-introduced, herbivore bushes were REALLY abundant, and there was much less AI then on Thenyaw. So you had roughly 50% of the server as herbivores; herbivores were also fairly viable, at the time, specifically in the case of Parasaurolophus and Triceratops, who are no longer nearly as viable.

So working on the abundance of AI does matter to properly remedy balance between them.

Keep in mind that, herbivores 'running down' carnivores is a lot harder to do than carnivores running down herbivores. I think a good way to figure out how much of a problem it may be would be using Pachy and Dilo as the test dummies;

Pachy is faster but has a slower trot and less stamina than a Dilo;
Dilo is slower but has a better trot and stamina than Pachy;

Some testing to see how easily the Dilo runs down the Pachy would be some fairly good insight, imo, to see if it may or may not be a problem.

Herbivores would also have to contend with how they cannot sniff while trotting, a huge edge carnivores have when tracking - especially because THEY DO have the toolkit herbivores would have; slower speeds but higher trot and stamina.

[.]

I agree with all of this imo.

[rustyOkin]

I agree that herbis should have the better trot that's for sure, they are the ones migrating. The fact that some carnis can still simply walk down their prey after such a long time of development is just mind-boggling to me...
I also don't want to completely repulse your ideas, you clearly have a point that the game needs some rethinking when it comes to movement.

All I'm saying is that getting too creative with trot speed, stamina and stamina recovery can be very unhealthy for the game's balance! These 3 values are just as important as actual run- and ambush speed.

Though I guess discussing how to even out the amount of carnis and herbis seems rather pointless right now anyway. First we need properly working AI before we can talk about rebalancing any values and the overall difficulty of carnis.

This is so ****ing sad and really hurts to watch... I remember talking to people about AI and how drastically they would impact the game long before they were released. Now we got this absolute mess and I can't be arsed playing this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game even though I love it!

[SlippoMode]

I agree with your ideas for the most part . Unfortunately if feel like the devs do their own thing regardless of opinions.

[Letterface]

balance is not so good as you think. imagine a dragon ball game,what if the charaters have the same strenght? imagine a goku super sayan 2 strong as crilin,it will be a little bit of a shame.
this is why a t-rex HAVE to be a lot stronger than an herbs,and this is why an herbs have to group for defend themselves

[Dimitris]

i like
i feel like theres a fetal flaw but i cant see it yet so thats pretty good
really my only problem is traveling since the maps are fairly big and you can spawn players in major zones where theyll istanly die so its kinda weird if carnivores has low stam