weight and health

[rustyOkin]

Is the weight shown in the character menu reflecting the actual amount of health each dino has?

btw I'm not new to the game, I know how the weight/damage system works
I'm just wondering if weight and HP are the exact same for every dino, I remember that for example Cerato had different weight-health values before its rework

speaking of the values shown in the character menu, is it even accurate?

[TyranntX]

Originally posted by Rusty:

Is the weight shown in the character menu reflecting the actual amount of health each dino has?

btw I'm not new to the game, I know how the weight/damage system works
I'm just wondering if weight and HP are the exact same for every dino, I remember that for example Cerato had different weight-health values before its rework

speaking of the values shown in the character menu, is it even accurate?

I don't think it does, but I do know that the dinosaur's weight relates to their attack power

[Roman 45]

https://the-isle-dinosaur-game.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Dinosaurs

[Why Watt]

Originally posted by Mozart25:

https://the-isle-dinosaur-game.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Dinosaurs

The devs repeatedly have said this wiki is fanmade and is riddled with misinformation.

@OP
The answer is no, and yes to the second.

That's the actual weight stat which is used in the damage formula.
So a fully grown 1.0 Subrex will have 2875 displayed, ok? However, look at the base damage, 450. You'd expect 2 full Subs would therefore kill one another in 7 hits. However, it takes 9 hits, thus indicating an HP stat of 4000.

Most of the dinosaurs have a weight = to their HP, such as Sucho, Maia, Dilo, Allo, Dryo, Galli, Diablo, Para, Cerato, Carno, Pachy and maybe Trike as well, the last one might have 100 kg difference if memory servers, but it's really not big enough to warrant consideration.

But there are 3 exceptions among adult dinosaurs... Utahraptor (1200 HP, 900 weight), Tyrannosaurus(6500(?, maybe 6400) HP, 5800 weight), Giganotosaurus (6000 HP, 5650 weight)

The reason I can assure you it is accurate is because it is handled via a formula. The menus are not done manually. The speed & weight shows for a dinosaur at it's full growth, in any given life stage, and base damage does scale tho. But it's all calculated, handled automatically. The (?) box in Sandbox, however, is not automatic, so it doesn't always reflect accurate changes.
This is how players were able to find out, during the Injections, that Herrerasaurus got a MASSIVE buff - the only non-Survival dinosaur to receive stat changes - from 225 weight & HP to 500 weight & HP, base Damage up from 25 to 50, and latter manual testing found a bleed of at least 10, to be able to inflict bleed on Acros but not full-adult Gigas.

[rustyOkin]

Originally posted by Why Watt:

Originally posted by Mozart25:

https://the-isle-dinosaur-game.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Dinosaurs

The devs repeatedly have said this wiki is fanmade and is riddled with misinformation.

@OP
The answer is no, and yes to the second.

That's the actual weight stat which is used in the damage formula.
So a fully grown 1.0 Subrex will have 2875 displayed, ok? However, look at the base damage, 450. You'd expect 2 full Subs would therefore kill one another in 7 hits. However, it takes 9 hits, thus indicating an HP stat of 4000.

Most of the dinosaurs have a weight = to their HP, such as Sucho, Maia, Dilo, Allo, Dryo, Galli, Diablo, Para, Cerato, Carno, Pachy and maybe Trike as well, the last one might have 100 kg difference if memory servers, but it's really not big enough to warrant consideration.

But there are 3 exceptions among adult dinosaurs... Utahraptor (1200 HP, 900 weight), Tyrannosaurus(6500(?, maybe 6400) HP, 5800 weight), Giganotosaurus (6000 HP, 5650 weight)

The reason I can assure you it is accurate is because it is handled via a formula. The menus are not done manually. The speed & weight shows for a dinosaur at it's full growth, in any given life stage, and base damage does scale tho. But it's all calculated, handled automatically. The (?) box in Sandbox, however, is not automatic, so it doesn't always reflect accurate changes.
This is how players were able to find out, during the Injections, that Herrerasaurus got a MASSIVE buff - the only non-Survival dinosaur to receive stat changes - from 225 weight & HP to 500 weight & HP, base Damage up from 25 to 50, and latter manual testing found a bleed of at least 10, to be able to inflict bleed on Acros but not full-adult Gigas.

I know that the stats shown represent full grown values of the current stage except bite force which changes with growth

The real question is why do these differences between HP and weight on certain dinosaurs even exist? the weight system allows for such easy balancing yet this makes things more complicated.
Also why are these informations hidden in the first place? I fully understand the devs' decision to not add a health bar but the values themselves... It's just not a good idea from a gameplay point of view

[Why Watt]

Yeah, it would be lovely if all the stats would be visible lmao. But unfortunately, the devs 'don't want it to be a numbers game' (even tho it most certainly is...)

Anyways, the reasoning there are differences is because it actually allows a greater degree of balance. You brought up old Cerato, and that was a perfect case of it being done, to an extent, right. His weight didn't mitigate damage much, hell it was lower than Allo, but his massive HP pool let him be a bleed sponge and take hits from things his tier, without actually obliterating them in seconds that would come from having a weight similar to his HP pool.

The problem is, most of the cases where this occurs in the current game do not, well, help balance things, if anything it should be more common. A good case where this could be a good thing would be on apexes. Rather than have their HP = Weight, or HP>Weight, which increases how much they do against smaller things and reduces the damage they take, it could be done to where Weight>HP, so they are not impervious to packs of mid-tiers as much as they are now. Could they crush them 1v1, well yeah, obviously, but a pack of mid tiers would make an Apex at least have to way risk vs reward.
Another case this could be done well is by making Predators in general have less HP than their weight, to make them more reliant on ambushing given they'd not take a beating as well. Or, if you don't reduce predators HP relative to weight, you could increase it on Herbivores, to once again give predators incentive to ambush instead of throw themselves at a herbivore and expect to win. There's a reason predators IRL ambush, it's because taking hits is always a bad thing, and avoiding them when possible is ideal.

[rustyOkin]

Originally posted by Why Watt:

Yeah, it would be lovely if all the stats would be visible lmao. But unfortunately, the devs 'don't want it to be a numbers game' (even tho it most certainly is...)

Anyways, the reasoning there are differences is because it actually allows a greater degree of balance. You brought up old Cerato, and that was a perfect case of it being done, to an extent, right. His weight didn't mitigate damage much, hell it was lower than Allo, but his massive HP pool let him be a bleed sponge and take hits from things his tier, without actually obliterating them in seconds that would come from having a weight similar to his HP pool.

The problem is, most of the cases where this occurs in the current game do not, well, help balance things, if anything it should be more common. A good case where this could be a good thing would be on apexes. Rather than have their HP = Weight, or HP>Weight, which increases how much they do against smaller things and reduces the damage they take, it could be done to where Weight>HP, so they are not impervious to packs of mid-tiers as much as they are now. Could they crush them 1v1, well yeah, obviously, but a pack of mid tiers would make an Apex at least have to way risk vs reward.
Another case this could be done well is by making Predators in general have less HP than their weight, to make them more reliant on ambushing given they'd not take a beating as well. Or, if you don't reduce predators HP relative to weight, you could increase it on Herbivores, to once again give predators incentive to ambush instead of throw themselves at a herbivore and expect to win. There's a reason predators IRL ambush, it's because taking hits is always a bad thing, and avoiding them when possible is ideal.

good point but I'm just not a fan of differences between weight and health

when it comes to smaller dinosaurs attacking in packs I'd prefer a % damage system = every dinosaur has a certain value of % health damage that it inflicts regardless of weight on top of its normal bite force (similar to Rex but much lower)

For example a dinosaur deals 150 damage (measured as usual with the weight system) + 2% of the targets maximum health

-It could be easily balanced if dinosaurs of similar weight attack each other
-It would barely impact a high weight class dinosaur attacking a small one (cause base damage gets amplified so much that the % doesn't matter anyway)
-small dinosaurs actually being able to cause damage to larger ones
-could result in certain dinos being more specialized than others in taking down larger prey while their actual bite force/health/weight isn't as great or even worse than their counterparts of similar weight

...just my ideas

[creatura05]

Originally posted by Rusty:

Also why are these informations hidden in the first place? I fully understand the devs' decision to not add a health bar but the values themselves... It's just not a good idea from a gameplay point of view

it's an immersion thing. If you're injured you only have a vague idea of how bad off you are, you don't have a health bar. The more blood on the screen the lower your health.

[rustyOkin]

Originally posted by creatura05:

Originally posted by Rusty:

Also why are these informations hidden in the first place? I fully understand the devs' decision to not add a health bar but the values themselves... It's just not a good idea from a gameplay point of view

it's an immersion thing. If you're injured you only have a vague idea of how bad off you are, you don't have a health bar. The more blood on the screen the lower your health.

dude did you even read the post? I wrote that I fully understand not adding a healthbar and the intention behind it!
But not knowing the actual stats of my dinosaur is a huge problem, especially for new players which I am not btw so I know how the system works and that I'm injured when my screen goes bloody...
Though not knowing what a dino is actually capable of, not knowing what I'm able to hunt and what I should run from is extremely crucial for the game-experience... not to mention that looks can be very deceiving in The Isle - just think about all the juvie/sub-adult stages

[Why Watt]

hehe, Rusty I've proposed the same idea before, so you're just preaching to the choir XD

Only I was going to simply just, re-use Trex's old gimmick, as it was recently removed (it was what caused a delay on taking damage after being bitten by a Rex) provided it be redone by someone who wasn't the trash former Dev Deathlyrage.

It really had everything needed, except it wasn't well optimized;
-Scaled with weight, like everything else, so it wouldn't be stupid.
-Had exclusion lists that could be customized case-by-case, so you could make a Pachy able to inflict % damage on an Allo, but not another Pachy or a Utah, for example.

But essentially, how I was going to handle it:

-Allo, Sucho, Utah, Pachy, Dilo, Carno, Cerato & Diablo would inflict the % damage, while the rest of the dinosaurs would not. In case-by-case, depending on what is ideally going to hunt what, you make certain creatures immune to it, case-by-case. You could make Carno immune to the % of Pachy, Utah and Dilo, however make Para and Maia immune to the % dealt by Carno, thus he clearly wants to beat up on the little guys and not be the rapist of Hadrosaurs he is atm.

Ideally, how it would play out:

1. Simply put, if your up against a pack / large group of dinosaurs that can inflict the %, it would be balanced to where if you try to logout mid-fight, you could be killed by taking that many hits over a minute of vulnerability.
2. This means that Apexes, i;e Giga and Trex and Trike, would still have the power advantage but not quite able to shrug off hits in the obscene way they can as it stands, from mid tiers or swarms of small tiers.
3. Allow a greater liberty to customize dinosaur niches, as to what they are ideally hunting.

[rustyOkin]

Originally posted by Why Watt:

hehe, Rusty I've proposed the same idea before, so you're just preaching to the choir XD

Only I was going to simply just, re-use Trex's old gimmick, as it was recently removed (it was what caused a delay on taking damage after being bitten by a Rex) provided it be redone by someone who wasn't the trash former Dev Deathlyrage.

It really had everything needed, except it wasn't well optimized;
-Scaled with weight, like everything else, so it wouldn't be stupid.
-Had exclusion lists that could be customized case-by-case, so you could make a Pachy able to inflict % damage on an Allo, but not another Pachy or a Utah, for example.

But essentially, how I was going to handle it:

-Allo, Sucho, Utah, Pachy, Dilo, Carno, Cerato & Diablo would inflict the % damage, while the rest of the dinosaurs would not. In case-by-case, depending on what is ideally going to hunt what, you make certain creatures immune to it, case-by-case. You could make Carno immune to the % of Pachy, Utah and Dilo, however make Para and Maia immune to the % dealt by Carno, thus he clearly wants to beat up on the little guys and not be the rapist of Hadrosaurs he is atm.

Ideally, how it would play out:

1. Simply put, if your up against a pack / large group of dinosaurs that can inflict the %, it would be balanced to where if you try to logout mid-fight, you could be killed by taking that many hits over a minute of vulnerability.
2. This means that Apexes, i;e Giga and Trex and Trike, would still have the power advantage but not quite able to shrug off hits in the obscene way they can as it stands, from mid tiers or swarms of small tiers.
3. Allow a greater liberty to customize dinosaur niches, as to what they are ideally hunting.

exactly man!!
my god I don't get how the devs can be so freaking amazing at doing sounds, animations and overall aesthetics but completely neglect basic balancing? like shouldn't that be some sort of priority?
I know it's an unfinished game but those "reworks" of Cerato and Sucho just show that these balance issues reoccur over and over again...