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As I side not I wouldn’t really say that suchomimus was avoiding deeper water simply because of the presence of large crocodilians , most of them within the Elerhaz formation were smaller than it was with the largest being sarcosuchus which was barely its length. There’s not much reason to believe crocodilians were preventing spinosaurids from swimming in deeper waters when they wanted to as the evolution towards a semi aquatic lifestyle in their lineage had nothing to do with their presence (there were still plenty of crocs around in North Africa).
https://www.deviantart.com/randomdinos/art/Elrhaz-Formation-taxa-738852914
Think of it like how jaguars and giant otters still love to swim and procure food in the water despite the presence of anacondas and various caiman species.
I thought Cerato already was a scavenger, being all slow but bleed resistant and powerful enough to bully smaller predators off their kill. It seems odd to have a fish eater in the game that isn't going to inherently eat fish as its main food source. Or is that scavenger-role the intention before fish are added?
There was word on Sucho's release in the game way back that it'll be able to swim faster than other dinos, although I don't know if that's changed since. Perhaps if it still is, it can offer an escape route for Sucho against larger predators but the lack of diving prevents it on intruding spino playstyle. :D
When I say large crocs, I refer specifically to Sarcosuchus.
Perhaps the extinction of sarco did not contribute to Spino's aquatic tendencies (it's only one of the current theories), but I have no doubt that a sarcosuchus would try to kill a suchomimus that it found swimming in the middle of a lake, since it's already known to prey on large dinosaurs. There isn't any traits on sucho that lends to it being particularly adept at swimming, contrast to spino. When it did swim, it would likely be on the surface like you bring up in the previous quote, and that's a prime position for a sarco to swim up and snap those jaws upon that neck and deathroll. I feel that risk would discourage any sucho from wanting to take a dip into deeper waters.
In comparison, jaguars and otters are both are active predators of the caiman, something I cannot say about sucho towards sarco unless it finds youngsters. Otters attack caimans through pack hunting (something of which there's no evidence of in spinosaurids) and jaguars due to their incredibly powerful bite-force able to pierce the hide and skull of the caiman, something a lot of people love going on about how spinosaurids lack in this.
There is no one species of caiman When I was referring to caimans posing a threat to jaguars and otters, I meant animals like the black caiman who are easily larger than both and one species that jaguars don’t really tend to hunt. Jaguars in the Pantanal hunt caiman species smaller than themselves such as the yacare which they can more easily overpower with minimal risk. Despite this black caiman (the biggest) will occasionally prey upon jaguars, otters and even cougars alike. Even birds who do wade in a similar manner that we imagine for certain spinosaurids aren’t safe from attack and can regularly be snapped up by crocs along the shore
If the threat of crocodilians was so great that it could influence whether an animal has a substantial acclimation to water then there’s countless species that shouldn’t have adopted such a way of life as a result of their presence. Spinosaurids have been living with crocodilians throughout their entire existence on multiple continents their affinity for aquatic habitats has nothing to do with the presence of absence of crocodilians since in most cases they were higher up on the food chain than the latter or shared a similar trophic space.
I didn’t really suggest sucho should be able to swim competently at the waters surface in game because I thought it couldn’t do so in real life I just mentioned it as a way to further differentiate it from spino
But yes, the black caiman is large enough to be a threat to jaguars and otters. Otters are more adapted to the water than sucho is, they are more in-line with spino in terms of aquatic adaptations. And although the black caiman can prey on them, they're clearly in a spot where they're not threatened with extinction by the presence of the crocodilian. Just like Spino was in a good enough spot where its future as a semi-aquatic species was no longer threatened by the crocodilians. But what of sucho? Did it have anything to give it a leg up over the sarcosuchus in an underwater setting? Was it even adapted to venture into deeper water? It can swim as you say, yes, but why would it swim? It needs a reward that outweighs the risk in such an activity.
You bring up puffins and cormorants being aquatic birds comparable to sucho and spino with penguins. Puffins and cormorants are not as adapted to water as penguins, true, but they still have traits for the act of swimming better than land-based birds. You can look at a puffin and be able to tell it's better suited to water than say, a heron. Doesn't mean the heron cannot hunt in water, but why would it swim when its not adapted to do so and has food already available to it without taking the risk of going into deeper water. It's attacked by crocs onshore, yes, but it would fare even worse if it were in the water. Whilst sucho is like that heron. It can swim, but probably not something it made a habit of doing on a regular basis since it lacks any trait that readily identifies it as semi-aquatic. Take something like Lurdusaurus, another semi-aquatic dino. We can tell it spent a fair amount of time in the water because it has traits typical of such a lifestyle (heavily-built bones, short limbs, etc), traits that set it apart from other iguanodonts. We inferred the same about spinosaurus because it had aquatic traits over its other relatives (although there is talk that Irritator may share the same traits as spino rather than the usual portrayal of the "Bary/Sucho"-type long-legged bodyplan, since it's closer to the spino than either of those two).
The wading birds like the heron are the usual comparison we make with sucho and bary for a reason. Like sucho, they clearly hunt aquatic prey without having any real adaptations to make them especially good swimmers. Sucho and bary seem to have adaptations that fit really well with a heron-esque hunting style. Of course, herons are taken by crocs, as you pointed out. Just like a sarco may at one point in its life try to go for a sucho wading by the bank. The risk is there, but at least on shore, a sucho is not nearly as disadvantaged against a sarco as it would be otherwise swimming in deeper waters. So that threat is lessened and the risk is outweighed by the reward of a readily available food source.
With the lions. Of course, the body plan of a lion is different than that of a sucho, given the latter has more powerful tail, shorter arms, the relatively light bird-like bone structure, and a longer more vulnerable neck. The last part being especially important since crocs tend to aim for the neck and head to drown their victims, something protected on lions but not so on sucho. But I'll stick to the lion example, since we're debating on crocs challenging predators of similar size as would be the case of sucho and sarco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HUJKILrVlw
Notice how these two male lions, consisting of a younger and older brother, are clearly scared and cautious to cross the water. These same animals would challenge and even try to hunt a crocodile on land but they know crocodiles are a real threat to be scared of when you're in the water. They're proven right when a crocodile does indeed attack the younger animal without hesitation, even when the lion growls at it. It is only through the actions of the older lion that the younger one escaped. Both our videos show that crocodiles can attack other predators as large as themselves if they see the opportunity to do so; the lions' caution shows that it's not an unusual thing that a crocodile will challenge them if they venture into the water. Croc will even attack bullshark that venture into their water. Even animals that spend most of their lives in the water alongside crocs and usually don't fear them are not immune when said crocodile gets large enough to challenge them, as Gustave has demonstrated when he's been reported to kill and eat adult hippos (now I'm imagining a Gustave-version of sarcosuchus...).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhrQZoO2fYo
We even get that occasional croc that tries to attack elephants. ELEPHANTS, for crying out loud! They don't succeed, of course, but they tried their luck anyway. Point is, crocodiles be crazy and aren't afraid to try their luck with something bigger than themselves, learning with experience what they can and cannot handle.
Anyway, I believe the scene would go as such: Suchos stick by the water's edge, on the alert as they fish. The occasional sarco, perhaps desperate or inexperienced, tries their luck to snatch an adult sucho from the bank, which may or may not be successful. The suchos only crossing the water when necessary to avoid conflict and possible injury with the local sarcos. Of course, the sucho would fight back if caught and rush to shore asap, if it escaped which is no guarantee. But although it's the same size as the sarco, it's at a huge disadvantage against a sarco whilst in the water simply because sarco has superior underwater prowess, and this could very well be something sucho was aware of and that sarco would capitalize on. Crocs are very opportunistic. Even if the sarco didn't kill it, the sucho could be injured in the scuffle, another risk it would want to avoid by not swimming around unless it needed to.
I know what you mean when you say that plenty of animals have learned to cope with crocodiles in their evolution. Any semi-aquatic mammal alive today had to have some way to either counter crocodiles or avoid them entirely to get where they are. Seals inhabit places crocodiles are nonexistant. Otters may either use the same strategy (like sea otters) or rely on another method such as numbers and pack hunting like in river otters. Hippos chose to counter crocodiles head-on through size, numbers, and aggression (for the most part, looking at you, Gustave). Whatever the spinosaurids had up their sleeve for spinosaurus (and possibly Irritator) worked.....
Either way, this has gotten offtopic. It's just something I thought would help Sucho and Spino stand out from each other in-game without intruding too much on each other's playstyle. But I'm sure our topic of sucho vs sarco would become especially interesting when, or IF, deinosuchus comes to the game. Very interested in how that goes.
I think You’re overanalyzing what I said, I’m not implying it was a deep water specialist that actively pursued prey underwater as much as Spinosaurus did I’m saying that it potentially could if it chose too if it adopted a specific technique of locomotion in the water such as tucking its arms in and using its legs to propel itself if not simply relying on its whole lower body. Youre assuming that a sarcosuchus would be a potential cause for extinction if suchomimus spent too much time swimming in the water nut that’s not eve true for other animals who spend substantial amounts of time in/around water with crocodilians in the same environment. The obvious benefit would be to procure food or even cool off just like other creatures.
“deeper water” is a relative term given depth changes the farther you go in an environment like wetlands and swamps. Im aware otters are more adapted to water than sucho is, I was bringing up an example , being more water adapted doesn’t change the fact they can still be hunted by caiman and because they spend immense amounts of time in the water, their main defense against this is their social nature which allows them to defend themselves and their young against a single aggressor. Even if they were solitary animals they’d still be semi aquatic the fact large crocodilians are present does not determine whether or not they are evolutionarily inclined to procure food from the water. You also forget that I brought up jaguars as a target for large black caiman. Despite this they still regularly swim/attack animals in water regardless of the fact large crocodilians can be present. An animal doesn’t have to be overspecialized for the water just to swim and even forage within it , this is why I used jaguars , literally the only adaptation they have to a swampy/watery environment is a stockier build , they don’t even really have webbed paws and yet the rate at which they will pursue prey in/around the water is unhampered by the presence of large caiman.
Herons as charismatic as they are can only go so far when comparing them to non-avian theropods especially Spinosaurids, they have large feathered wings, no tails and long legs with long toes with little to no surface area in between them. A theropod like suchomimus is going to have a much easier time swimming in the water than a heron by virtue of their physiology since it has more efficient mean to propel itself than a bird with wings unsuited for paddling, long legs and splayed feet. And yet despite all of that herons actually do swim its not even a rarity either or a super uncommon occurrence . Asking why would a heron swim when its not specially adapted to do so is like asking why monkeys swim to forage for crabs: Its immediately beneficial. Crocoidiles aren’t present throughout the entirety of the herons range and in certain areas they’re far less at risk than others from such danger. Furthermore this still doesn’t account for birds who do have adaptations for swimming and do so in habitats where crocodilians lurk. The evolution of such traits cannot be attributed to said crocodilians. Even in areas where they are present crocodilians cant be everywhere at once , You’re taking the assumption that since suchomimus isn’t as uniquely suited to water as Spinosaurus that it wouldn’t regularly attempt to forage in the water on that basis, fact is all suchomimus would really need that is webbed feet at least partially if that.
https://youtu.be/ekGYwcYi4b4
https://youtu.be/TwSe3DUnKQw
They’re the usual comparison because they’re living dinosaurs who eat aquatic prey not because people believe they couldn’t venture into the water to feed if they wanted or were prevented from doing so. The feeding habits are where the similarities end, theropods are more stable in the water than a bird like a heron is and doesn’t need the same adaptations birds do to be competent in the water. We look for these kinds of comparisons because it often helps to visualize these creatures more if we can relate them to animals we see in the modern world, but the fact is those analogies are not and never will be perfect. So while Baryonyx and suchomimus can be correlated with a stork or heron in terms of their reliance on aquatic prey the comparison faulters when discussing their capability in water to locomote.
Such as this for instance : https://goo.gl/images/srsGFF
https://goo.gl/images/unWtku
Unlike herons suchomimus was about as large if not slightly larger than sarcosuchus and served a domain role within the food chain. A heron in comparison to an alligator is heavily skewed towards the alligator in terms of body mass and strength while you have the two aformentioned reptiles as multi ton animals with teeth and claws. We don’t know if sarcosuchus would’ve attempted to kill a carnivore relatively the same size as it was and taller at that even on land especially since they would’ve been such a common occurrence in wetland areas. assuming it would be the limiting factor preventing African Spinosaurids from spending time within the water assumes that if such large crocodilians were always present and the spinosaurs were always relatively on par in terms of mass that theyw ouldve been confined to alnd mostly and never have evolved to be more aquatic like we see with sigilmassausurs and Spinosaurus. We have little to no reason to believe that sarcosuchus was the one driving force that allowed more amphibious forms to take root. If this kind of trend had more precedent then various water birds, water adapted rodents and semi aquatic snakes shouldn’t even be present where larger predators reside in the same waterways.
Suchomimus doesn’t really have a “light” bone structure spinosaurids are notorious for their increased bone density among theropods and in the case of sucho itself were still talking about a multi ton animal. A lions neck isn’t fully protected by its mane at least not from a crocodile its just hair not a meat shield, its meant to be a symbol that displays the sexual fitness and maturity of the males. It also means nothing when a crocodile is intent on grabbing onto it to drown.
I’m familiar with this video and have seen it before, lions despise water as they don’t particularly like being wet it even inhibits how well they hunt during the wet season. They’re not used to constantly being around water or procuring prey from it as they are primarily terrestrial predators, as such theyre aware of which carnivores hold sway in that environment and their confidence isn’t nearly as high. When looking at carnivores who are far more familiar with water and are comfortable hunting in/around it confrontations between the two can turn out very differently since they’re both adept at swimming in some capacity and aren’t intimidated by the thought of being in it. Such is the case with pythons and crocodiles/alligators , encounters can very well end with one animal being intimidated by the other or simply a struggle not ending in death after a brief skirmish, the fact such skirmishes can happen have no effect on the semi aquatic nature of each animal.
https://youtu.be/uLl8BcO79no
https://youtu.be/xfYAj1k9uZM
Nowhere did I imply predators of similar size were immune to crocodile attacks I said they react differently to predators of similar size since as you can see in both instances the lions survived even when alone whereas a similar sized antelope in that situation would be all but doomed. Saltwater crocodiles do indeed kill bull sharks on occasion (since they’re essentially fish) but when they do its typically when they’re smaller than themselves, its not as if these are epic underwater battles between the two.
Crocodiles can have a habit of not looking before they leap, theyre creatures of instinct after all and once they realize that trunk is attached to an animal that can literally lift them out of the water they let go immediately. Even in the case of both lion related videos we brought up the crocodile eventually let go of them shortly after despite holding the advantage of being more adept in water. This comes down to behavior in the end.
Seals don’t really help your case here since while their habitats usually don’t overlap with crocodiles they have to deal with much and I mean MUCH worse including various shark species and killer whales whenever they go to the sea to feed. Again their evolutionary inclination to a certain habitat isn’t strictly determined by what predators lurk there its determined by the resources it holds and the ecological space they can fill.
Irritator isn’t really that different from Suchomimus in terms of physiology, again spinosaurids didn’t all need to be as physiologically refined as Spinosaurus just be efficient in water from time to time and have them confined to a heron like hunting pattern. They share the same basic overall traits with a few outliers, high nares, increased bone density, conical teeth , powerful tails , strong forearms with hooked claws and strong legs (regardless of their length). If youre willing to accept that somehow irritator an animal far smaller than suchomimus is competent in the water able to swim and can hold its own against crocodilians enough to not be restricted to a predominantly heron like fishing technique why exactly is it so hard to conceive that suchomimus a larger more powerful creature cannot do the same? or better yet that lurdusaurus an herbivore presumed to be semi aquatic due to its short legs /dense bones , who’s shorter than suchomimus and lives in the same environment as sarcosuchus can somehow manage to protect itself from said crocodilian in a way that the apex theropod of the area cannot. So much so that said theropod would be forced to avoid the water at nearly all costs (well in terms of swimming in it anyway) lest it risk being attacked.
I simply don’t adhere to the hypothesis that the absence of sarcosuchus is what allowed African Spinosaurids to spend more time in the water and thus be semi aquatic as a result especially since even later on in the cretaceous of the continent crocodilians were flourishing. It just doesn’t really make sense given that even modern examples piscivorous animals with aquatic habits don’t conform to such a pressure thus there’s not really a correlation there.
Definitely promising to hear
Edit : Yeah it probably would
(Sorry My bad for not seeing this part sooner)
Also, Sucho would rather need a speed advantage in muddy/swamp area than a swim speed boost.
Oh, that's a pet peeve of mine when I see that on realism servers, especially for Spino. Spino would not make for a good crocodile with that sail sticking out. In fact, I believe I read that the one of the proposed purposes of the sail was to advertise the spino's presence above the water.
But I believe the intended niche of ambush water predator would go to deinosuchus, if it's still coming to the game. Spino and Sucho probably won't be intruding on that niche as we want them to be unique. If deinosuchus is still gonna be playable, which I don't know if that's still the case.
It's okay! I'm sorry I had it at the end so you went through all the trouble before you saw it. I'm actually having fun discussing with you. I double checked the forum sections to see if there's a more suitable spot to move our discussion, like a paleontology section or something, but there doesn't seem to be one (there needs to be one). So I can make a proper response here after I get off work if you'd like to continue!
Anyway, happy New Year! :D
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326507888_Aquatic_adaptation_in_the_skull_of_carnivorous_dinosaurs_Theropoda_Spinosauridae_and_the_evolution_of_aquatic_habits_in_spinosaurus
Particularly the excerpts:
"The appearance of giant semiaquatic dinosaurs may have followed the disappearance of giant pholidosaurid crocodylomorphs, suggesting that the extinction of large crocodylomorphs was associated with the rise of dinosaurs as apex predators in the freshwater ecosystem in North Africa."
"Strikingly, the giant pholidosaurid crocodylomorphs represented by Sarcosuchus, which dominated in earlier, Aptian beds in Africa (Debroin and Taquet, 1966; Sereno et al., 2001) and South America, (Buffetaut and Taquet, 1977) have not been reported from the Cenomanian of North Africa. The largest crocodylomorph known from these beds is Elosuchus cherifiensis (de Broin, 2002); with a skull approximately 100 cm long it would have been smaller than giant spinosaurids. Larger crocodylians, if they were present, appear to have been rare in the Kem Kem and the roughly coeval Bahariya faunas in Egypt. This suggests that the rise of spinosaurs to become apex predators in the freshwater ecosystems of North Africa was associated with the decline of pholidosaurs, with spinosaurids either opportunistically exploiting niches left vacant by the decline of giant crocodylomorphs, or actively driving them extinct via competitive displacement."
And:
"The degree of aquatic specialization appears to have varied within the Spinosauridae, however. A revised phylogenetic analysis suggests a possible path for the evolution of aquatic habits. The early and primitive baryonychines Baryonyx and Suchomimus, show specializations for piscivory in the skull and jaws (Charig and Milner, 1997; Sereno et al., 1998). A piscivorous lifestyle would have required spending time near water, wading into rivers and lakes, and at least on occasion, swimming to cross water barriers such as streams, rivers and lakes.The relatively short limbs and the tall neural spines of the tail suggest adaptation for swimming (Sereno et al., 1998). However, the absence of pachyostosis in the skeleton implies that the baryonychines were not specialized for diving; instead, they may have waded into lakes and rivers to fish, like herons and Kodiak bears."