Speed Chart: Version 3

[Sable]

A modified version of the last chart I did some months ago.


First things first. Some ground rules

Even though this should be completely obvious, all of this is speculation. They're suggestions. Cracks taken at what we think the speeds should/could be post-recode. These ARE NOT for current game. We don't give a ♥♥♥♥ about current game. Nor is any of this meant to be set in stone. It's open for debate. It's open to change. I don't want to see anyone ♥♥♥♥♥ing and saying

"oh we don't know whats gonna be like so we should wait"
"devs might have a plan"
"but we don't know for sure-"

All of that? I don't care. Go to the store and find me some ♥♥♥♥s to give because I'm fresh out. Us not knowing or "devs have a plan" doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't come up with our own ideas. Don't be a sheep. If anything, it should be encouraging people to come up with things.

So in other words, if you have nothing to contribute, get off the thread and do your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t somewhere else. Go blab on the millionth "Recode When" post for all I care. But don't bring your ♥♥♥♥ on this thread.

If you have a different idea or opinion or whatever the ♥♥♥♥, say it, but actually explain your thinking. If all I see is "but I want-" or "this doesn't make sense" I will not bother replying to your comment.

Second order of business. Before you actually make a comment or voice your opinion, read through the whole post first and make sure that it doesn't answer itself. Don't just look at the speed. Look at the staminas. Look at the ambush speeds. Read through the reasons stated for each. If you still have an opinion, then by all means, go ahead and say it.

Again, this chart is purely speculation and suggestions. It's probably going to be edited. It's probably going to change again. And it'll probably keep changing until I'm satisfied with the end result.


Chart Format
From highest speed to lowest speed

Species: Sprint Speed - Ambush Speed; Stamina - Ambush Duration

Carnotaurus: 52 km/h - N/A; 2:00 - N/A

Gallimimus: 50 km/h - N/A; 3:10 - N/A

Austroraptor: 47 km/h - 57 km/h; 2:00 - 10s

Dryosaurus: 45 km/h - N/A; 5:30 - N/A

Herrerasaurus: 45 km/h - 53 km/h; 4:45 - 5s

Dilophosaurus: 43 km/h - 53 km/h; 3:30 - 8s

Dondiraptor 42 km/h - 53 km/h; 3:30 - 8s

Pachycephalosaurus: 42 km/h - N/A; 3:00 - N/A

Velociraptor: 42 km/h - 48 km/h; 2:30 - 10s

Orodromeus: 42 km/h - N/A; 3:00 - N/A

Maiasaura: 40 km/h - N/A; 4:00

Baryonyx: 40 km/h - 45 km/h; 2:25 - 6s

Ceratosaurus: 40 km/h - 47 km/h; 3:20 - 6s

Allosaurus: 38 km/h - 43 km/h; 2:30 - 8s

Albertosaurus: 37 km/h - 43 km/h; 3:35 - 6s

Parasaurolophus: 37 km/h - N/A; 4:00 - N/A

Suchomimus: 35 km/h - 40 km/h; 2:30 - 5s

Diabloceratops: 34 km/h - N/A; 3:45 - N/A

Acrocanthrosaurus: 34 km/h - 40 km/h; 2:30 - 5s

Psittacosaurus: 33 km/h - N/A; 3:45 - N/A

Therizinosaurus: 32 km/h - N/A; 2:45 - N/A

Giganotosaurus: 32 km/h - 37 km/h; 1:45 - 5s

Stegosaurus: 30 km/h - N/A; 2:30 - N/A

Tyrannosaurus Rex: 30 km/h - 45 km/h; 1:00 - 8s

Triceratops: 28 km/h - N/A; 1:15 - N/A

Spinosaurus: 28 km/h - 34 km/h; 1:00 - 5s

Camarasaurus: 20 km/h - N/A; 2:45 - N/A



Some key points. I raised the highest known speed from Carnotaurus’ 50 km/h to 52 km/h. I did this to have more room to fill the chart without so many speeds overlapping each other as well to accommodate for the additions of the 14 new species. I purposefully excluded Shantungosaurus, Ankylosaurus, and Brachiosaurus. If you wish to know why, ask it.


Let’s talk why the changes were done.

Carnotaurus: received a small increase in speed, but took a hard hit to its stamina, dropping it down to 2:00. Carnotaurus is intended to be the mid-size predator of smaller prey, and is said to be getting a re-do in order to allow it to be this small-prey killer, most likely in the form of a better turn. I’m in agreement, however, the turn should only be about as good as Juvenile Rex’s current turn rate and radius. Meanwhile, its prey animals (Gallimimus, Austroraptor, Dryosaurus, Herrerasaurus, Dilophosaurus) all would have superior turning as well as superior stamina. The reasoning behind Carnotaurus having a better but not amazing turn is that it’s only supposed to give it a better chance of catching prey. In other words, it only needs to be possible for Carnotaurus to catch them, but it doesn’t need to be easy.

Gallimimus: increase in speed, stamina nerf, and a slight agility nerf, as well restrict Gallimimus’ ability to kick to trotting and walking. This is to prevent it from running down and killing Austroraptor and Herrerasaurus with no counterplay. It still has superior stamina over Carnotaurus, as well as somewhat better agility to outmanuever and outlast it.

Austroraptor: while Austroraptor wouldn’t be such a pathetic excuse for a carnivore as current, it’d still be quite weak, and therefore holds the spot of the second fastest carnivore. However, its stamina isn’t very impressive, and should still stay close to water for safety. It’s only fast enough to allow for a getaway.

Dryosaurus: Dryosaurus is and still would be a very weak herbivore, however, it is now second fastest herbivore with the highest stamina time at 5:30. While it runs at the same speed as Herrerasaurus at 45 km/h, it outlasts what is likely its main predator, and therefore gives it a good chance of being able to escape.

Herrerasaurus: as third fastest carnivore, Herrerasaurus now holds the highest stamina time of any carnivore. While not even being close to being the strongest carnivore, it can still be quite dangerous, especially in packs, using its endurance to tire out and eventually overpower prey.

Dilophosaurus: With venom on the way and described to be used as a tool for tracking prey, Dilophosaurus received an increase in both speed and stamina, as venom would likely warrant an overall power nerf. It would still be much more powerful than Herrerasaurus or Austroraptor, but its venom and new movement buffs would allow for a predator that can be a better counter to Carnotaurus, while still being a prey item to it. Should a Carnotaurus spot a Dilophosaurus, the Carnotaurus is the predator. Should the Dilophosaurus manage to inflict a venomous bite first, then the Dilophosaurus becomes the predator.

Orodromeus: With its shorter legs (compared to Dryosaurus or Herrerasaurus) Orodromeus is not quite as fast, but is still much speedier than current. However, its small size allows for easier concealment, and therefore doesn’t need to be as fast as the larger speedsters.

Velociraptor: Much of the reasoning for Velociraptor’s new speed is the same as that used for Orodromeus, however, given that both run at the same speed, Velociraptor has a little less stamina to allow for Orodromeus to escape it by endurance.

Dondiraptor: where many other fast-moving animals got faster, this one got a little slower. Now at 42 km/h, Dondiraptor is one of the slowest of all the fast-moving smalls. The reason behind this lies in the long-awaited pounce mechanic. As it was described before, the raptor pounce would be a one-shot to creatures its size and smaller, while also giving Dondiraptor a powerful mechanic for hunting larger prey. Since it is supposed to be hunting much larger prey, Dondiraptor no longer has so much need to be able to catch and kill smaller animals. It can still catch any of the faster creatures with its ambush.

Pachycephalosaurus: this is not our current Pachycephalosaurus that gets bleed out with one or two bites from a raptor. This would be a Pachycephalosaurus that can properly tank bites from raptors and Dilophosaurs, while dishing back more than what it takes. Therefore, it matches Dondiraptor in speed, but has less stamina as to not run down the weaker animal and bash its skull in.

Psittacosaurus: like Orodromeus, this Psittacosaurus is a lot faster now, but given its shorter strides, still doesn’t quite match the other speed demons of the Isle. However, its small size allows for easy concealment and evasion, therefore, it doesn’t need to be any faster.

Baryonyx: a predator that I would like to see returned to its former glory as quite the brute, this Baryonyx would be a fairly fast, and fairly powerful animal, considerably stronger than raptors, though not quite as powerful as an Allosaurus or Albertosaurus. Hence, why it is among the faster members of mid-size animals.

Maiasaura: surely to cause an uproar among you Maiasaura mains. Sorry, but I think that an herbivore that has literally nothing to fear from anything is a broken herbivore. It is still very much the speedy mid-sized herbivore, however, it’s no longer running down and nuking raptors and Dilophosaurs (it is still powerful enough to do so if needed). It can still outrun anything that can kill it so long as they are not using ambush, but if you spot an Allosaurus and wait for it to get close enough for ambush... what the ♥♥♥♥ are you doing?

Ceratosaurus: another carnivore that I’m in full support of not having it become Allosaurus’ ♥♥♥♥♥, but still think can do with some better mobility. It’s the other fastest mid-sized carnivore next to Baryonyx. This Ceratosaurus wouldn’t bleed out in one bite from a Dilophosaurus, for those wondering. For a deeper explanation, ask in the replies.

Allosaurus: this one got quite the boost in speed, but in turn, received a hard drop in stamina. This is for the fact that it is to gain a grapple mechanic, which like the raptor’s pounce, would likely be quite powerful. However, since it is not likely to be as strong without it (Albertosaurus, Diabloceratops, Suchomimus would likely remain stronger) it gains a higher speed in order to be able to escape threats.

Diabloceratops: I know some people may be ready to witch hunt me with the cries of “ermagerd why is dibble slower and has less stam than allo, not fair wahhhh!”.... Diabloceratops is still miles stronger than Allosaurus. Unlike other herbivores, Diabloceratops doesn’t need to run from everything and is fully capable of taking on and killing most carnivores in a 1v1. Therefore, it’s only fast enough to escape things that outright overpower it such as apex and pseudo-apex predators.

Parasaurolophus: Last I heard about this one (which was very recent) it was going to be bumped up to an “apex” herbivore, though from its description, pseudo-apex is more like it. Its large size will be a deterrent to most if not all mid-size carnivores, but will still not stand a chance against apex predators or pseudo-apex predators, such as Acrocanthrosaurus. Therefore, it remains quite fast, with a decent stamina pool, however it cannot run down Allosaurus, Ceratosaurus, or Albertosaurus, and still outruns any carnivore large enough to overpower it.

Suchomimus: As a semiaquatic carnivore, Suchomimus hasn’t much need to be as adept on land as other carnivores. It’s among the slower pseudo-apexes, its lack of terrestial prowess made up for with its superior aquatic capabilities such as diving and being able to remain in the water for extended time periods.

Acrocanthrosaurus: Definitely the most powerful of the pseudo-apexes, if not an apex itself. Currently, this carnivore is broken as ♥♥♥♥ due to its insane speed, and an even more insane ambush. However, its power seems to be fairly reasonable, as it can overpower nearly any mid-sized animal, while also not standing much chance against apexes, but has the speed and stamina to evade them if needed.

Therizinosaurus: Currently as broken as Acrocanthrosaurus because of its ridiculous speed / power combination that makes this one nearly unstoppable. However, I agree with its oppressive offensive capabilities. It’s a large animal with brutal weaponry. So I toned down the speed to where it doesn’t run down anything that it outright destroys, but also can escape things that outright destroy it.

Stegosaurus: As I’ve heard it described, Stegosaurus is being scaled up to join the apex level animals. It should be fairly agile to serve as a hard defensive herbivore. It excels at repelling attacks, but only because Stegosaurus itself cannot take much damage. Against the more powerful Rex, it should have the option to flee. It should stand an equal chance to the Giganotosaurus, but I placed it at a higher stamina pool as to still give it the option to flee if it doesn’t wish to fight.

Giganotosaurus: As the second most powerful apex, Giganotosaurus is a force to be reckoned with in its own right. Hence why I gave it a lower speed than nearly all other animals, but still higher than its more powerful rival, the Rex, along with a greater stamina pool.

Tyrannosaurus Rex: the most powerful terrestial carnivore, Rex’s speed took quite a hit. I gave it a slower speed than current, at 30 km/h. This is for two reasons. The first is that it doesn’t need such an incredible sprint when it has a godly ambush speed of 45 km/h. The second reason it doesn’t need a super fast sprint is that the Rex is the one true apex predator. It has nothing to fear from any other carnivore, and therefore, doesn’t need an amazing sprint.

Triceratops: given that a Triceratops should be more than capable of defeating a Rex in a straight-up fight, I made the Triceratops slower, with more stamina than its carnivorous rival. A Rex should have to ambush an unsuspecting Triceratops, reach the neck, and crush it. A Rex should fear a drawn out fight, because it doesn’t have the stamina to keep one up. A Triceratops shouldn’t need to flee, nor does it need to be able to run down a Rex. It simply has to stand its ground and keep its horns on the Rex.

Spinosaurus: the least powerful of the apexes, Spinosaurus is an oceanic predator. Given it will be the most dangerous beast in the sea, it has no need to be as proficient on land as its other giant rivals. It would be the slowest carnivore on land, with sprinting time no better than that of a Rex, and an ambush speed that falls rather short of impressive. It’s strength is its marine lifestyle and its size. A Spinosaurus wandering inland is and should be a dead Spinosaurus.

Camarasaurus: in my opinion, this should be the largest and most powerful herbivore in terms of health. Given that its massive size would give it very little to fear, Camarasaurus should be the slowest playable herbivore in the game, unless Brachiosaurus ever makes it as a playable which is unlikely.

[bigmoe808]

Ah, ♥♥♥♥...here we go again.

[Sable]

I'll be on the sidelines for the majority of this one. Considering I edited the whole thing on my own, and already gave my opinions for each and every single change, I figure I don't need to stick around as much unless someone directs a thought or question to me. Otherwise, this is for others to look at and discuss.

I'll give my input when and where I feel it's needed.

[bigmoe808]

Originally posted by Ninja_.Weasel:

I'll be on the sidelines for the majority of this one. Considering I edited the whole thing on my own, and already gave my opinions for each and every single change, I figure I don't need to stick around as much unless someone directs a thought or question to me. Otherwise, this is for others to look at and discuss.

I'll give my input when and where I feel it's needed.

I'll think before speaking.

[bigmoe808]

...I see what you dondi there.

[bigmoe808]

Alright, time for a bit of a questionnaire if you're up for it.

Agility-I'm really curious as to what turn speeds you're considering for some of these animals. If possible, not that you have to do it any time soon or at all, can you place a grading system for each of the animal's turn speeds.

For example-and I will be boring current animals to show what I'm getting at-look at this:

• Galli is Rank S
  
  
• Utah is Rank A
  
  
• Diablo is Rank B
  
  
• Allo is Rank C
  
  
• Carno is Rank D

In no way do I expect you to do this anytime soon, you likely don't even want to look at the thread.

However, sense we're already talking speed, I think it would help to have an idea at how well an animal can turn and how likely that is to end in its favor for whatever use it intends on getting out of it. I can mostly figure out most of the agility for these animals, but ever sense you last version I was hoping to see what you'd imagine.

Just guessing, but here's what I'm guessing from the current list:

Chart Format
Just to match your list, actual turn speeds are random

Carnotaurus: +D

Gallimimus: -C

Austroraptor: B

Dryosaurus: A

Herrerasaurus: -A

Dilophosaurus: -B

Dondiraptor A

Pachycephalosaurus: +B

Velociraptor: +A

Orodromeus: B

Psittacosaurus: C

Maiasaura: C

Baryonyx: C

Ceratosaurus: -B

Allosaurus: +C

Albertosaurus: +C

Diabloceratops: +B

Parasaurolophus: -B

Suchomimus: -C

Acrocanthrosaurus: +C

Stegosaurus: A

Therizinosaurus: C

Giganotosaurus: +D

Tyrannosaurus Rex: +D

Triceratops: -B

Spinosaurus: D

Camarasaurus: -D

[Kami]

Ima be that guy.

Why exclude Brachi and Anky? Pue and Shant make sense, they're getting scrapped, but I highly doubt the dev team would make an entirely new dinosaur just to keep it as an AI, especially with the 'all sandbox are going into survival' mindset they've had recently. And Anky is practically guaranteed to be playable.

[Sable]

It's early as ♥♥♥♥ and I just woke up from 3 hours of sleep, but I'll answer Zoinks first because his question is easier.

Brachi has been repeatedly stated to be AI. I know there's a chance that could change, given that their minds have actually seemed to be more open to other ideas, but Brachi is the one animal I absolutely don't see as a playable.

The amount of balancing issues I see with this thing are off the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ charts.

If Brachi ever does become playable, it'll be one of the last dinosaurs to do so. Until I see a chance that's higher than 2% of it becoming playable, then I'll add it back to the chart.

Anky, while having a higher chance, doesn't look like it'll make it. Based on the devs input I've seen on Discord, at least a couple don't seem to think it's good for Survival, both for working with and actual Survival gameplay.

Now, does this mean Anky has no chance at all?

Nah.

I actually love Anky, but its chances are low enough for me to remove it for the time being. If/when I see it being in good graces with the devs, I'll add it back in.

[Why Watt]

I have to say I do agree with most of the values put in here, but there are some I'd recommend be tweaked.

1. Psttacosaurus.
I understand you want to give fair treatment to all the smallest of creatures should they be in the hands of a player, and realism must always take a backseat to gameplay. But Psttacosaurus, unlike Orodromeus and Velociraptor, cannot be in any way visualised as a remotely fast animal.

I would propose, instead, that it be dropped to a very low speed just considering how insanely stealthy a good Taco player can be. As the single smallest playable, their stealth is without rival and countless times in Progression I have evaded predation by just being THAT small. Furthermore, if you gave them the benefit of embelishments to burrowing, I do not see any reason for them to be anywhere near that speed range. You managed to provide Ceratosaurus and Dilophosaurus and Pachycephalosaurus with hypothetical buffs to where they aren't, well, as they are currently... and so I'd appreciate if you extended such consideration to Avaceratops, Psittacosaurus and Dryosaurus in terms of allowing them to burrow.

FYI you forgot to include Avaceratops, just as a reminder lel.
If Psittacosaurus could expand burrows, or if members of their group could add to a baseline burrow to expand them to create tunnel systems, I feel that a speed drop to Trex's level would be fair considering amazing stealth, enhanced burrowing and over all immersion (Tacos moving fast ♥♥♥♥♥ on the suspense of disbelief lol).

2. Austroraptor.
I moreso take issue with the general conflict in narrative being presented for it's argument. You said it doesn't have much stamina but, look at all the other mobile animals and you'd see it has amazing stamina. I feel it should have no more than Carno's so it can juke and attempt to escape so it can reach water and make it out alive. Aside from that I'm fine if it has a lot of speed JUST so it can dive into the surf to escape ♥♥♥♥.

3. Diabloceratops.
Placing it at the same speed as Parasaurolophus just ♥♥♥♥♥ Para even harder than it deserves. You are quite right in stating that Diabloceratops is a force to be reckoned with, but making it as fast as an animal that is supposed to run from it's problems is a bit iffy from my PoV.
I'd like to propose a drop to 34kmh but give it SUBSTANTIALLY more stamina than Acrocanthosaurus, 3:30-3:45 of runtime. Diabloceratops can be fine as the Energizer Bunny - something that keeps giving it is all way beyond the competition.

4. Parasaurolophus.
Placing it at a lower speed than Albertosaurus and a lower runtime is a recipe for disaster. I'd recommend bringing it back up to it's championed 4 minutes of stamina and a speed of 47kmh. Given Albertosaurus is the more powerful animal, allowing Parasaurolophus to run away from it is just fair IMHO. Yes the devs want to bring Parasaurolophus up a class, but that can very well just be in it's defensive and evasive properties, so keep that in mind.

5. Suchomimus.
The devs have mentioned intents for the animal to be overall weaker than current. That doesn't mean it cannot ♥♥♥♥ on an Allosaurus 1v1 - hell, they are making it larger and heavier and giving it defensive attacks with their claws. But it's offensive potential as a predator is going down, as such having it at the same base sprint as Acrocanthosaurus does not feel warranted. I'd propose bringing it up to 35kmh, given I can't actually see it beating a Diabloceratops post-powerdown given it will have more access to food from non-dinosaurian sources. I'd leave the stamina as current, since increasing it's speed should be fine after doing so. It wouldn't be bullying Diabloceratops and it wouldn't be a meal for Acrocanthosaurus. Balanced, as all things should be.
(I am not proposing an increase to ambush)

6. Stegosaurus.
This change is more or less simple. As a very massive animal with little adaptations for speed, I'd like to see it drop to the same base sprint as Tyrannosaurus - 30kmh, but given more stamina to escape. A speed of 32kmh just feels far too close to much weaker animals given it's increased size and lethality with locational damage. I HIGHLY doubt it is going to be losing to Giganotosaurus 1v1, so placing it at a lower speed shouldn't cause any issues and also give more room for Therizinosaurus to feel relevant instead of 'forward facing Stegosaurus'.

7. Maiasaura.
I fully agree with your sentiments that it should not be the fearless animal it currently is, nor should it be slapping around smaller animals with impunity. However I DO think it needs more base speed than Ceratosaurus and Baryonyx, two animals I can see easily overpowering it. Increased speed up to 42 kmh, but with an overall runtime slightly below Utahraptor at 3:20 would be more reasonable to differentiate it from Parasaurolophus while still leaving it vulnerable to a large swathe of predators (Albertosaurus, Ceratosaurus, Baryonyx, Carnotaurus, Allosaurus, and with what my 8th and final proposed change, Tyrannosaurus) this should be fine.

8. Tyrannosaurus.
While you've buffed it's ambush time overall it is lacking in one intended design feature of it's presence... and that is, how Dondi wanted Tyrannosaurus to threaten most animals. Sure you've made it able to consume the mid tier specimens which is all good in my books, as is toning down the base sprint to compensate for an increase to it's overall stamina and ambush time.
However, to cement Tyrannosaurus as this intentionally fearsome creature, it needs to be able to catch Dilophosaurus in an ambush as well as Utahraptor. It needs to be able to threaten these pack hunters with it's burst or else it loses whatever fear factor it previously had... and will simply put be prey to them. Something a lot of players disliked in the past was how Utahraptors wouldn't be remotely on guard if a Tyrannosaurus was near., how they'd walk up to it without any consideration because they knew it was a lardass.
So I am proposing, and this would give it an ambush multiplier of 1.5, a 45kmh ambush. This speed ties with Herrerasaurus and Dryosaurus but shouldn't actually, in practice, allow it to catch any unless they get right in it's face and are not paying attention in which case well, their problem.

Now you might worry this Tyrannosaurus has essentially clapped all mid tiers but think of the difference between the speeds of it's current prey in ambush vs. their base sprint, and those of your proposal, and you'll see they are still leagues better off.

X Prey: Current Speed - KMH Difference between Current Ambush of Rex
Allosaurus: 34.2kmh - 8.9kmh between Trex ambush and Allo sprint;
Suchomimus: 30.9kmh - 12.2kmh between Trex ambush and Allo sprint;
Parasaurolophus: 34.2kmh - 8.9kmh between Trex ambush and Para sprint;
Diabloceratops: 31.6kmh - 11.5kmh between Trex ambush and Diablo sprint;
Ceratosaurus: 36.6kmh - 6.5kmh between Trex ambush and Cerato sprint;
Dilophosaurus: 38.8kmh - 4.3kmh between Trex ambush and Dilo sprint;
Pachycephalosaurus: 40.2 - 2.9kmh between Trex ambush and Pachy sprint;

Vs.

X Prey: Changed Speed - KMH Difference between Changed Ambush of Rex
Allosaurus: 38kmh - 7kmh between Trex ambush and Allo sprint;
Suchomimus: 35kmh - 10kmh between Trex ambush and Allo sprint;
Parasaurolophus: 37kmh - 8kmh between Trex ambush and Para sprint;
Diabloceratops: 34kmh - 11kmh between Trex ambush and Diablo sprint;
Ceratosaurus: 40kmh - 5kmh between Trex ambush and Cerato sprint;
Dilophosaurus: 43kmh - 2kmh between Trex ambush and Dilo sprint;
Pachycephalosaurus: 42 - 3kmh between Trex ambush and Pachy sprint;

As you can see, despite allowing Tyrannosaurus to be able to threaten Dilophosaurus and Utahraptor in ambush... in every single species it has a lower advantage in overall speed over them as prey items. For some, the difference is only mild, that is true (especially Pachy lol) however it is still enough to back the point that an increase to overall ambush speed would not screw these animals over.
FURTHERMORE,

If you find the increased speed potential of Tyrannosaurus to be too high you can always drop the ambush time down to 8 seconds.

[Kami]

Considering:

1. Para is currently more powerful then Alberto

2. If Para is getting bumped to apex levels it will have at least a minor buff to offensive and defensive stats, making it overall stronger

And 3: Alberto is very likely going to be nerfed in terms of offensive and defensive stats as right now it is insanely powerful next to the other mids

If we take all of that into account, Paras proposed changes are fine.

Its fellow hadrosaur, Maia, is also fine, considering it has more stamina then both.

However, Cerato and its stamina time is just too much. Let's put this into perspective.

It outpaces Bary, the other mid with its speed, by A MINUTE AND FIVE SECONDS. Cerato is obviously going to be the more powerful of the two, considering size and build, so it will quickly invalidate Bary.

The Maia's stam time is rather close to Ceratos. Now this sounds good (of course Maia should have things to threaten it) but this means if you have just 20 or so seconds of stamina spent when the chase begins, you're probably ♥♥♥♥♥♥. Pretty small safety gap there. This is also true for Pisttaco (although I agree with Watt there, it should be considerably slower. To compensate in its matchup against Velo, it should have the best offensive power of any in it's size range but the lowest health. look at that beak for two seconds and you'll see why, its... A considerable size)

Orodromeus has 30 seconds less stamina, and Velo has a full minute less. If a Cerato sees either, it's going to catch them unless it gets unlucky with its stamina. Pachy also has 30 seconds less, meaning it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥ if a Cerato goes for it too. All three have only 2 kilometers of speed over Cerato.

You took the problem Cerato has with Allo right now, removed its bad stamina, and then replicated its issue with four different creatures and put two others dangerously close: the only difference is Cerato is now the dominant one in the relationship. Cerato could do with a pretty heavy stamina nerf of a full minute, putting Ceratos stam at 2:30. It doesn't really have the same issue because it has 2 KM over it, which isn't much, but Cerato has the same stamina as Allo, meaning even if it loses 20 or so seconds, it should be good. Even if not does lose enough stamina ton be threatened, if we're using bully Cerato it should be able to hold it's own, and it had ample chance to disengage from the fight.

Theri and Giga matchup might also need some explaining, because if Theri beats Giga its going to need a stamina nerf too

[Why Watt]

Dondi's said Alberto will essentially be current, full Subrex. That leaves it MORE powerful than current, by a substantial amount. Just keep that in mind; atm Alberto's are strong sure but not that strong.

Honestly, these speeds and staminas should all be properly tossed into an excel sheet to see if they hold up... which I'll be glad to do.

[Kami]

Not sure where you're getting that from? From what I'v seen Alberts are substantially more powerful than a Sub Tyranno. A Sub Tyranno stands absolute no chance against a Para, because it's also slower then a Para. Although Alberto is in the same boat, being weaker then a Para, its a breeze to hunt one because it's easy to outmanovour and dodge its hits, then bleed it out.

Math usually doesn't work for our current numbers, but those are our current numbers. These are hypotheticals, and we know at least some of the official numbers are wrong, which is probably why. A spreadsheet would certainly work, and if somehow the math from the numbers we know was somehow still wrong, it is at least a good jumping off point.

[Sable]

I say I'll take the sidelines and end up being on the field.

Moe:

I'd offer Carnotaurus a C rank in turning, if I'm reading this right. D+ doesn't change much. Austro, Herrera, and Dryo are S rank, and since they are all in much closer to Carno in speed with superior stamina, we can have Carno be a little more agile.

Galli.. I'd place around B. I'd restrict its kick to trot and walking, so no running down and kicking the smaller critters into the dirt. If an Austro or Herrera want to fight a Galli, then the Galli can go right ahead and stomp their brains in.

Dilo, Pachy, and Dondiraptor are A

Velo and Oro are A

Everything else seems pretty good to me



Watt:
Psittacosaurus
40 km/h is actually a pretty realistic speed for Psittacosaurus. That's about 25 m/h, which is a little slower than a house cat. For an animal the size of a labrador, that's actually quite slow.
But if it must be slower and rely on stealth, then why not? I had Psittaco at 34 km/h in the last chart (or 33, don't remember).

Yeah sure, let the thing burrow. Ava I just plain forgot about. I have a design for this one as a small combative herbivore (combative against Herrera and Austro), that included the ability to burrow, among other things. It's a design I made from way back when I was rolling with the old dev concept of arboreal herrera.

Can't say I'm on board with Dryo's burrow. It has always rubbed me the wrong way. I just have a hard time seeing an animal that behaves like a small deer digging a hole in the ground and living in it. Especially one that already has speed and stamina on its side.

Austroraptor:
That number is a typo and is supposed to be 2:00, not 3:00. I'll fix that.

Diabloceratops:
'ight

Parasaurolophus:
If it's getting slightly buffed in defensive, that does entail a little more power, if not agility and turn rate. I was in herds with Para and I've been Para, and from my own experience, they kick a Sub-Rex's ass in a straight-up fight.
On the flipside, I see Albertos ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dominating everything in deathmatch, including Paras. (With and without Alt-Turn)
Now, it usually seems my experiences are the outliers (Dilo v. raptor, Rex v. Trike)
So, if the norm really is Para getting clapped by Sub-Rex (and if Alberto gets toned down to Sub Rex's level), then I'll raise the speed and stamina.

Suchomimus:
'ight.

Stegosaurus:
'ight.

Maiasaura:
Personally, I'd be more in favor of it outlasting Cerato and Bary rather than outrunning them. It'd be a scaled-up version of Dryo (Maia) and Herrera (Cerato/Bary), with both predator and prey run equally fast, but the prey can run for longer time.

Rex:
'ight.

Also, Watt, it's not a Utahraptor. It's a Dondiraptor.


Zoinks

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that even with larger estimates, a Bary is bigger than a Cerato. While it may not have as powerful a bite force, it's still got some buffass arms with huge claws, and it's also semiaquatic. If a Bary can't handle a Cerato (even though it should) it can always flee to water.

Currently, Baryonyx is strong enough to take a Cerato provided it uses its superior speed and agility, even with its massively toned down power. I've taken on a pack of 4 Ceratos as a Bary and I was able to give them hell before they finally killed me. Asking how low they were, all four were on last screen. That was with speed and agility alone. Imagine a Bary that has some extra power going for it.

Velo and Oro are both also tiny and miles more agile than Cerato. They have the benefit of being able to just vanish into the foilage. Velo as current can juke any predator (not including Herrera, raptor, Dilo, Austro, Bary) right up to the moment its stamina goes out. Not only that, but a Velo wouldn't even feed a Cerato worth a ♥♥♥♥. So a Cerato is going to be wasting stamina and hunger time trying to catch a Velo that won't give it any energy if it does manage to catch it.

I don't see Theri ever beating a Giga in a straight-up fight. Locational damage is a thing, vitals are a thing, and the neck is most definitely a vital spot. Taking a good long look at Theri... its neck is extremely exposed, and would likely just get sliced right off after a bite from a Giga. There's also the matter of bleed, and if a Theri by some miracle manages to kill a Giga, it's still going to bleed out and die.

[Why Watt]

Dondi said he isn't going to bother renaming it.

[Why Watt]

Also Subrex does substantially more damage than Alberto, has more HP, better bleed resistance and amazing stamina. Full Subrex devour herds of Para without trouble. Alberto's strength is it's bugged size making it harder to actually hit and it's insane speed, that's where it kicks ass. Subrex is the strongest mid tier aside from Acrocanthosaurus who can give it a run for it's money, but Subrex's agility is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd (I juke GALLIS as Subrex it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mind boggling) it can consume the poor bastard.

2 Subrexes ik killed an Adult Giga on US 1... that's all I need to say lol.

[Why Watt]

But yeah I do personally dislike Dryo burrowing not because of it's toolkit as that can change but moreso it's anatomy. It's about as suited to dig as a Pachy.