We need a proper apex herbivore (Shant) to help counter apex carnivore spam

[kekyoin]

One of the reasons apexes are thriving is because there's not much that can kill them right now.

I'm not a zoologist so take everything with a grain of salt.

Why do lions die? Usually from:
1. Starvation (environmentally tough conditions limit prey)
2. Competition (rival clans, stuff like hyenas en masse posing a threat)
3. Dangerous prey (buffalo and wildebeests are quite dangerous to lions).

How do we emulate that in the Isle with dinosaur apexes?

We need more apex herbivores. Right now, the trike is the only thing that can stand up to a rex, and even then it loses in a face tank (at least I think that's how it currently is).

We are getting the camara, but it's too slow for a lot of people, and the stego I'm not sure how well it will do against apexes but I don't think its an apex herbivore.

Keep in mind the Deinosuchus and fliers would draw some people away from apexes too, and I dont think the Spino would be as troublesome as giga / rex spam though there would be an initial Spino spam.

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I know the trike exists, but here is my problem with it:

Trike is too slow, and has a nightmarish growth cycle from what I've experienced. Even being in a herd can't guarantee anything, if the apexes found your herd it's pretty much over. They can easily keep pace, and they just start whittling down your herd easily.

Not only that, I think it loses in a 1v1 facetank (sure this can be changed, but the issue with the trike still exists in that it's slow and hard to grow) vs apexes.


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Back in progression, most of the frequent bloodbaths would be a result of shants vs apexes.

Shant was absurdly good, it used to run down apexes, headbutt them and cause bonebreak, and then stomps them to death. It was extremely broken and it's not what i'm suggesting for survival.

Of course, apex spam was a thing back then, but from what I remember it was a megapack of apexes laying claim to some hotspot like trips or that gulf lake. Not only that, the bloodbath would feed so many creatures, it was something everyone looked forward to.

Anyways I digress (though that was when I had the most fun in the Isle, the old v3 progression days).

My point is, we need a powerful apex herbivore that people wouldn't turn away from.



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I know the shant is really similar to the para, but the para is literally a gourmet meal on a silver platter. It's literally useless, even in numbers, against apexes. I was in a para herd once and holy, the apexes pretty much made us their personal cattle herd. At the very least we could migrate away, but they found us anyway. We escaped with a fragment of the former herd.

However, the issue remains and we need competent apex herbivores.

Why would people play the shant in the current herbivore lineup?

1. It's really mobile. For something the size of a diplodocus, it can cover distances pretty quickly. I'd say late juvi stage it should be around 36 km/h, sub stage at around 32, 33km/h, and adult stage at 30 km/h (this is around giga's speed right? Giga speed should honestly be buffed 1 or 2 km/h).

2. It is viable in a 1v1. The shant won't lose in a 1v1 facetank due to its very generous health pool. Since it can stand on two legs, alt turn is pretty decent. Shant stomp should be extremely dangerous and cause bonebreak. I'd lessen the stam pentalty and just add a delay between stomps to prevent spamming it. Its headbutt alone is something apexes should be wary of since the damage can stack up. If the apex wants to disengage, it can just run away (unless its been stomped, then it's at the mercy of the shant).

3. Shant herds are much safer than trike herds. It'll be much harder for apexes to get to you when you have something as strong and as mobile as the adult shants protecting you. Of course, apexes can run through and bite the younger ones, but if anyone gets caught in a stomp it's over, so it's quite risky. Stuff like allos and dilos are much, much more of a threat because of their speeds. Dilos are even worse because they can strike at night. I would give the shants poorer night vision to offset everything else, so all predators at night are much more dangerous.

Oh yes, shant should have bad agility when running and walking, so turning while normally walking and running aren't that good. Alt turn and slow walking are decent.

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TlDr: Shant is mobile, and can't die in facetank 1v1s. Herds are safer too by extension, but vulnerable at night to predators and to fast predators in general. Would be an appealing choice to people playing herbs, mainly because juvi and sub stages are decently fast and the adult stage is strong yet mobile enough. This would pose a bigger threat to apexes, since the isle lacks a proper, strong apex herbivore.

Any thoughts / suggestions?

[beebee73]

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[Darth Absentis]

Originally posted by Ghost of Razgriz:

Originally posted by General Eclectic:

We already have a proper apex herb to counter the problem. It's called ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. People just don't want to play it, besides pretty sure Shant is getting added to survival mode anyways.

Trike is one herb apex, and it's only decent against the rex in a 1v1. Against a giga, it's just a walking buffet, namely because it can't regen it's stam.

more the oposite, a rex can brake its leg and then the trike can not stomp, making it pretty easy to kill once that is done, hence it can facetank a trike, the giga dies if it tries that and the trike knows how to stomp

[Rotiart]

What would shant offer to the game that isn't already covered by Maia, Para, and Trike?

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

Originally posted by Rotiart:

What would shant offer to the game that isn't already covered by Maia, Para, and Trike?

Originally posted by Emperor of The Great Unknown:

I think the coolest reason to add Shantu to survival is it's transformation during it's growth cycle. It is basically the herbivore equivalent of Rex.

Starts off fast and high stamina like Maia as a sub, then turns into a Tankier adult losing speed and stamina as it grows but gaining Power and Mass. So Shantus big enough to kill Apex Carnivores can't run them down like before, but smaller Shantus can run away like before.

[Rippa]

I obliterate apex carnis as trike the trick to having a good trike herd is to have juvies/sub adults log out before the apex decides to hunt so it must face adults and can’t get an easy meal then have the kids log in when it’s done. Let’s face it you Rex and gigs players only target kids of a herd lmao if we had old bleed system it would be easier to kill apex and actually make the fights more risk and reward style

[Madkou]

Originally posted by General Eclectic:

Originally posted by kekyoin:

Yes, I addressed that in the post (the trike is slow, hard to grow and people usually don't want to go through that kind of trouble. Even in herds it's not a guarantee).

The shant on the other hand is much more appealing because of the mobility. It'll still take a while to grow but it won't be like the trike.

And good, I heard somewhere that Dondi though shant was too similar to para so it'd be AI or something

Actually Im not so sure it will be added, unless it's reworked. Apparently some people think its overpowered in sandbox mode because of that mobility. Triceratops may not be as "good" as Shanti, but adding Shanti would just create another problem. I still think Trike is more appealing because at least carnivores can run from it if they want to avoid a confrontation. A triceratops shouldn't be out for blood. Shanti players usually are...

The apexes don't need help, and they could use the competition. Trikes can be a bit pointless, because they can't chase down and fight an apex, unless they outnumber them. Trikes have more stm, and can chase a rex, or giga down, but again if you are chasing them down, you won't be able to stomp at the end of that so bring more than one trike to a chase. The limit is 5, so that means they can chase down 2 apexes with 5 trikes (that's 2 to 1 odds) the trikes should win without losing anyone, most likely. 3 and you'll lose 1 trike maybe 2 of the 5. Try it :)

It's tougher to grow a trike than an apex, because you can find apex groups all over the place. So you don't see too many trike herds, but we still see too many apexes. Also, are you talking about role playing, or faction pvp man? I think a shant, another apex herbie wouldn't hurt, tbh. If it would make people happy to water them down, so carnies don't have it so tough...(lol)...most would be OK with that. Carnies will have 3 top tier apexes soon. We're still staring at the trike, and people are fixed on the idea apexes can just walk away, lol. Not a good combo!

[Evil Minіоn]

You don't want a herbivore that can just chase down and murder an apex predator, you want one that can control space against them which means fighting back and winning in 1vs1 encounters.

The issue with "apex herbivores" is that they tend to be either useless - too weak to properly defend themselves and thus just adding another prey item - or too strong - not killable by a reasonable amount of predators and thus just piling up in numbers until the players get bored and either go on a murder spree or suicide.

In the end everything on the higher branches of the food chain likely has to be population controlled bottom-up, which means by food supply and competition with rivals (both your own species and other species sharing your diet*). This way having lots of them around will make gameplay much harder, naturally limiting their numbers (as long as most abuses are dealt with).

Introducing something bigger and meaner to prevent the FOTM from piling up forever (top-down population control) won't work because it just introduces a new FOTM that will pile up instead. It only works on characters further down the food chain.

*Food competition for apexes includes non-apexes, especially the ones they are unlikely to catch!

[Madkou]

A solution? Server rules. They aren't messing with game mechanics until post re-code...

So, let's say apexes and trikes cannot group. They are solo titans roaming the earth. They shouldn't be excluded from nesting, so a pair may nest, but then they go their separate ways, or fight when their young becomes a juvi and can fend for itself. I know, dino experts found out apexes ran in groups, but this is a game, and I'm suggesting this as a means of trying to balance things in a game as they are.

Yeah, players can just keep making babies, or use a nest to exploit the nesting rule I propose, so that's still a work in progress. Any suggestions there would be welcome! Could mods watch for that kinda thing?

Takes a pack of w/e to kill them, or a 1 on 1 to settle it. Apexes still have a lot of avoidance when it comes to trikes, and that's just because trikes kill what comes to them, and nothing more really. They are defensive when provoked, and the game has all but seen to this with mechanics.

@Evil Minion: Do you agree with what I'm saying there about trikes, and game mechanics achieving what you were suggesting? Defensive herbivores? But it ends there.

Are packs of roaming w/e gonna be enough to keep the apexes in check? A lot of them, yes! However, trikes are also vulnerable to this, and they aren't as popular. So, should they be able to mix-herd? (keeping with no same species grouping) 1 trike in a mix-herd in other words.

Well that tips the balance when you have back up against an apex, as a trike. A mix-herd alone can kill 1 apex without a trike, but they're gonna lose a large number to face tanking if said apex is good, and aggressive! W/e it can't 1 shot, and chase down, etc. So, in fairness trikes would have to remain alone. So, the apex speed advantage is still maintained here. This means apexes survive better than trikes. Still. Not a perfect solution, but still panders to the current crowd.

Playing alone. Some folks like this, while others don't. This alone (pardon the pun) will help thin numbers. How long do you play alone for? Well, is it only adult? As a juvi the numbers would probably be without a cap. As a sub, could top tiers still group? Sure, I don't see why not. You gotta have something to help you get there. Getting to full adult is still dicey, but not as big a problem as getting there. So, sub rexes, gigas, and trikes could still group.

Juvi's and sub trikes could mix-herd as they do now, but have a limit of X. Allos and the lot can pack at 15, so that should be a consideration. Also, how the two pair up.

Sub rexes and gigas could share the same number. No one's had a beef with that, so it's a keeper. What is it? Let's compare a sub-apex to a sub-trike. Is there a big imbalance here? Honestly I don't know. We need a stat cruncher here. If it's an equal fight in any way then the numbers should be the same.

People are gonna uneasy about being a solo apex, and say that there's no point if you don't have another apex watching your back. Problem is, when you do, they tip the balance a lot lol.

So, in response to this, they could lower the group limit of smaller preds and herbies to compensate, and make it less about people suiciding into apexes cuz they can just nest in again and it doesn't take long to regrow, or, we have 15, or an uncapped number of us anyways! More about group skill, and coordination with less numbers. I mean, 2-3 of most anything can switch hit an apex with np, but make 1 mistake...I like that fix. Seems like common sense to me.

For anyone who got through all of that, and think it does or doesn't have merit, let me know what you think.

[Evil Minіоn]

You completely ignored the main point about "apex" population control: Top-down doesn't work, so it needs to be bottom-up. Which makes it a balance issue and a question on how to deal with logout. At least you would be able to decrease the total population per time but whether it boils down to solo/small groups sustainably hunting and competing or a few large groups playing Godzilla (suddenly joining in force, delivering death and destruction before disappearing as the ecosystem needs to recover) needs to be seen.

Server rules are a fake solution. They cause a ton of work for moderators (and in worse cases for the players themselves) bogging down gameplay with a slugglish buerocracy that does not tend to reward following the rules, but either not getting caught or having good connections. It might hide some issues but that by itself is actually a problem as hidden issues are far more likely to be ignored and gamed.

[ratel]

Have u heard of like trike?

[kekyoin]

By bottom up, I assume you mean make it harder to grow up in the first place due to competition? In other words, have smaller creatures hunt the juvis / subs instead of adding competition at the adult apex level?

And agreed. Behavior needs to be controlled through in-game mechanics, either by incentivizing certain behaviors, or just forcing them via the affinity system. An overabundance of server rules just ends up a nightmare for everyone involved.

The other problem is that there isn't a "sustained ecosystem" at any given point. By that, I mean that the total numbers of every dinosaur is never constant. Everyone can pick apex, grow them up, and log off. This is one of the main reasons why there's an epidemic.

In progression (there was still apex megapack spam back then), everyone at least was forced to go through every stage leading up to the apex, but now people can just pick an apex, though they have to sit through 6-7 hours of wait time. However, the same logoff issue remained back then as it does now.

Someone can just get on when the population is low, grow an apex, and come back later. Artificial restraining of certain populations won't help and won't be implemented, so how else should we deal with apexes?

Part of me thinks it's better to just rebalance everything (including life stages) so it doesn't matter what dinosaur/growth you are as long as you play your cards right. You should be able to have fun at all points of a dinosaur's life and no matter what dinosaur you are.

This is a dumb solution, but what are your thoughts on weekly server resets? Everyone's dino would be wiped, and would have to start over weekly or monthly or whatever. Dumb "solution" and there's not really a reason for it imo.

[Madkou]

Originally posted by Evil Minіоn:

You completely ignored the main point about "apex" population control: Top-down doesn't work, so it needs to be bottom-up. Which makes it a balance issue and a question on how to deal with logout. At least you would be able to decrease the total population per time but whether it boils down to solo/small groups sustainably hunting and competing or a few large groups playing Godzilla (suddenly joining in force, delivering death and destruction before disappearing as the ecosystem needs to recover) needs to be seen.

Server rules are a fake solution. They cause a ton of work for moderators (and in worse cases for the players themselves) bogging down gameplay with a slugglish buerocracy that does not tend to reward following the rules, but either not getting caught or having good connections. It might hide some issues but that by itself is actually a problem as hidden issues are far more likely to be ignored and gamed.

Ok, then find a solution that is doable now? Not post update. Unless you don't care about now?

@kekyoin: "This is a dumb solution, but what are your thoughts on weekly server resets? Everyone's dino would be wiped, and would have to start over weekly or monthly or whatever. Dumb "solution" and there's not really a reason for it imo."

Well, I don't think that wouldn't do anything besides anger those who take pride in surviving long periods.

[beebee73]

I can't speak for everyone else but I for one would hate to have a dino I had successfully grown due to a wipe. I'm limited at times to when I can play so thst would make some days not worth playing if my dino was going to be wiped anyhow.

On another thread someone had asked to have one of the egg eating dinos as playable. Would that help ant to specifically have playable dinos to target nests? Legitimately asking as still new enough not to have a clue...and have never seen nesting dinos, unless received a nest invite. So may not be feasible. Just was thinking of tiny dinos as scavengers & egg thief's primarily.

[Madkou]

Again, is all this post re-code? Or are people trying to fix something now? Could be another year yet lol. They aren't gonna go into the game and change stuff there, they're too busy with the re-code, and why would they spend tons of time messing with old code anyways. Server management seems to be the only reasonable key. They make changes there. No where else, atm.

@Evil Minion: Just curious, what are your ideal server rules? Just asking, because at the moment, they are how we manage the servers. The game itself is very loose, mechanically.

[kekyoin]

I feel like it would have to be post recode. It seems like a lot of mechanics would change, possibly rendering any solution we come up with now (if we find one) useless.

Waiting for the recode might be the best option here, though the problem will most likely still persist. At least then we might have new ways of dealing with it.