Herbivore Strains?

[mattis]

Most of you know that there are carnivore strains(hypo,tisso,neuro,magna) in game,but do you know how can herbivores defend from them? A hypo rex can easily kill a trike or a shant.There will be herbivore strains or something like that to balance herbs? I know that there is puertasaurus and camarasaurus,but i think they arent enough because they are very slow and hard to hide.

[SkBonez]

Herbis won’t get strains, the devs have made that clear, they will survive the strains the same way the carnivores do, by staying out of their way and using stealth when necessary. It’s not like it’s the strains siding with the other carnivores against the herbivores, the strains are meant to hunt everything, carnivores, herbivores, and humans. It’s not a game about warring factions, it’s every man for themselves.

[Sable]

Sigh

First off, normal carnivores aren't an allied faction (nor are herbivores if they choose).

Second, Strains aren't supposed to be some kind of champion for the carnivores (see why above).

They're monsters. A freak of nature that's going to kill literally everything that moves: mercenary, tribal, carnivore, herbivore, and omnivore. There's no balance around them because their sole purpose to unbalance the ecosystem, to throw it completely out of whack and creating chaos.

So there is no way to balance against Strains. All you would get with a Type-H Triceratops is a Type-H Rex that looks like a Triceratops. That's it. Both would be killing and eating EVERYTHING.

You're not going to get a Strain herbivore. You're going to get another Strain carnivore that looks like an herbivore. It wouldn't defend the herbivores, it wouldn't be their guardian. It'd be just another monster that's killing all of them.

[Pablo Croft]

I don't think we're getting the whole story here. It sounds horribly imbalanced without mentioned checks and balances. This also gives players another reason not to play a herbivore. A faction already in trouble. Through humans, mercs and w/e the other guys are into the mix and you won't see many herbivores around.

Is there a timer on this? Can there be more than 1 at a time? How do we get to be a strain? Do strains have complete control over their dinosaur? Can they be bias? etc. A lot to consider here.

I do agree that "most" herbivore strains would just mass kill everything, if it were possible. Some "might" target carnivores only. It's their choice. Like "some" strain players "might" just go after apex spam.

[Darth Absentis]

Originally posted by Ninja_.Weasel:

Sigh

First off, normal carnivores aren't an allied faction (nor are herbivores if they choose).

Second, Strains aren't supposed to be some kind of champion for the carnivores (see why above).

They're monsters. A freak of nature that's going to kill literally everything that moves: mercenary, tribal, carnivore, herbivore, and omnivore. There's no balance around them because their sole purpose to unbalance the ecosystem, to throw it completely out of whack and creating chaos.

So there is no way to balance against Strains. All you would get with a Type-H Triceratops is a Type-H Rex that looks like a Triceratops. That's it. Both would be killing and eating EVERYTHING.

You're not going to get a Strain herbivore. You're going to get another Strain carnivore that looks like an herbivore. It wouldn't defend the herbivores, it wouldn't be their guardian. It'd be just another monster that's killing all of them.

again, there is so less idea of what they are gonna do with those strains though

for an example, if they only can be unlocked by people playing the regular dinosaur counterpart, people will just be mainly playing said regular counterpart, making overall herbivores even less wanted as playable dinosaur

[SkBonez]

Originally posted by Chip-A-Saur:

I don't think we're getting the whole story here. It sounds horribly imbalanced without mentioned checks and balances. This also gives players another reason not to play a herbivore. A faction already in trouble. Through humans, mercs and w/e the other guys are into the mix and you won't see many herbivores around.

Is there a timer on this? Can there be more than 1 at a time? How do we get to be a strain? Do strains have complete control over their dinosaur? Can they be bias? etc. A lot to consider here.

There will be some checks and balance to strains. Mercenaries will have weapons that are rare and difficult to find or build that are used to counter strains like one that can penetrate a hyper’s armor and stop it from healing or one that weakens a neuro’s weird powers. Otherwise there is a time limit on hypers at least, we don’t know if there is one on the others yet. Hypers are meant to have such insane metabolic needs that they can’t eat fast enough to survive, only to last a little longer, they are guaranteed to starve to death sooner or later.
As for how many there can be and how to become one, we don’t know. The devs want us to figure it out on our own when the system is finished and released. They have assured us repeatedly that it is going to be made to be incredibly difficult to figure out and more so to achieve once you figure it out, so they should be incredibly rare.

[Sable]

Chip and Darth

What have herbivores done since their arrival to the game?

Hunted down carnivores.

They will run down any carnivore regardless of species or growth stage, and kill them. Why? Because they don't want the cute little baby Rex to grow into a 7 ton Apex predator.

What do Triceratops do now that they can't herd with herbivores?

They kill them. They run them down, and gore them to death.

How did the herbivore faction respond?

They started killing Triceratops, even the young ones. Why? Because they don't want the little hornhead to grow into an 8 ton behemoth that's just going to kill them later.

If an herbivore becomes a Strain, what is it going to do?

It's going to be killing everything, herbivores included.

With all that in mind, let me ask you this.

Why are you going to play an herbivore if your goal is to become an unstoppable flesh eating monsters, aka. a carnivore?

Next question. Knowing how herbivores behave towards things that can or will be able to hunt them, how do you think they're going to treat the species of their faction that have the potential to do just that?

I'll save you the effort of searching for the answer.

The herbivores are going to kill them. They already kill young Triceratops, who as adults have absolutely no benefit from killing herbivores.

Why would they spare a Triceratops whose goal is to become a creature that will have a benefit to killing herbivores?

They wouldn't.

With all that in mind, do you honestly think that having Strains just for carnivores is going to damage the herbivore faction more than if you had Strains for both? The herbivore faction is already at war with itself. Having Strains for herbivores is only giving them more incentive to kill each other, which again, damages the faction.

[Pablo Croft]

Many of your points are certainly valid, and I hope you're right. I'll stand by my original thought on strains long ago by saying they should be AI, or dev/admin controlled during events "only." I think once introduced, it will receive a mixed welcome. Like the dilo, people love to play them and hate them when they don't, but on a much larger scale with strains.

The introduction of other factions alone will leave the herbivore faction pretty barren as is. Minus the odd player who tries out stegos. That will only last for a time, and when the novelty of everything else wears off, "then" herbivore numbers will probably return to as they are now, low. Which isn't saying much.

Strains promote the carnivore faction, and any other faction with a similar random, or otherwise reward for playing as that faction. The best thing they can do for herbivores now is to fix the trike situation, so it isn't a black mark on the faction any longer.

I "do" agree that herbivore strains would also further plunge the herbivore faction into the wrong direction, like trikes already strive to do (along with those herbivores who kill trikes). Leaving strains out of the hands of players is the right thing to do here. It leaves a trail of bad things happening that are easily avoided. It's not the first time. It's too late now though, they already said they'll be in play. xD

Can't take that back without some serious player withdrawal lol.

To sum up, if you give one faction something overpowered, you have to do the same for the other factions. They did, though. Already a bad idea that leads to --> You can't just leave any of them too far down the wrong end of the spectrum.

The only fix would be to make these super dinosaurs killable by an apex pack, or a very large group of larger dinosaurs. Without the weight system leaving a big gap in what who can do to what, even smaller dinosaurs should have a shot at it, in even greater numbers, of course. Like utah without limits, for example. It seemed like a strange idea at first, as they are capable pack hunters, but now I'm starting to connect those dots. If my facts are straight.

if these super dinosaurs are stronger and faster then everything on the map, they'll have problems right out of the gate lol. At the "very" least if they -must- have them playable by players and only carnivores, make them potentially vulnerable to every faction. Still not a great idea to have even that, but maybe tolerable for most.

[Raina]

Not sure what everyone has against people pvping in a pvp game just cuz they chew on plants. Seems a little backwards. Herbivores have the power to kill carnivores. Get over it or get better at dealing with them. Simple. No big nerf needed.

As for strains I always thought they'd be interesting on the herbivore side. Shake up gameplay a bit. It's not like strains don't favor their friends already. They had hunting dogs in the form of Utah before. No doubt it will happen again. It's not a pure kill fest like you want it to be. And if it is. A lot of the server will just log off anyways, as there is no counter play to strains as a dino. Herbis have a hard enough time already (in most cases. Obviously some are decent at what they do) no way they will be able to out run/hide from a strain. So. Might as well log. Keep from loosing all your time put into the dino you are playing. And now you have an empty server.

All that power? Speed? Invincibility? Sorry carnivore exclusive piss off plant eaters. Makes the one faction far more attractive to play as.

[MadArtillery]

What's all this about no herbivore strains? Why even let people play them if they are just going to be an underdeveloped wreck?

[Sable]

Raina, the point isn't about questioning whether or not herbivores should be killing, it's about whether or not they should be killing each other.

If you're going to give herbivore factions goals and motivations to be killing each other, why bother with an herbivore faction? They're just carnivores that eat plants.

This is why carnivores are currently the more popular of the two. They do all the things that herbivores do, but better because they have ambush and scent while moving.

We don't need an endgame for herbivores that'll make them carnivores. We need an endgame for herbivores that'll keep them as herbivores. Having the same endgame for both factions isn't going to make people want to play herbivores more. We need something that herbivores and ONLY herbivores would be able to reach.

No two factions should have the same general playstyle, or the same endgame. Otherwise, we don't even have herbivore faction, we just have carnivores 2.0, and nobody wants that.

Herbivores shouldn't play like carnivores. Carnivores shouldn't play like herbivores.
Omnivores shouldn't play like either.
Mercenaries shouldn't play like Tribals.
Tribals shouldn't play like Mercenaries.

So strive for that. Strive for diversity. Strive for having a goal that only one faction can reach. That's how you raise a faction's popularity. Having them all do the same thing or reach for the same goal is just lazy and wouldn't even help their popularity anyway, and so you would be stuck in a continuous loop of having your preferred characters always being outclassed by others.

[Raina]

Originally posted by Ninja_.Weasel:

Raina, the point isn't about questioning whether or not herbivores should be killing, it's about whether or not they should be killing each other.

If you're going to give herbivore factions goals and motivations to be killing each other, why bother with an herbivore faction? They're just carnivores that eat plants.

This is why carnivores are currently the more popular of the two. They do all the things that herbivores do, but better because they have ambush and scent while moving.

We don't need an endgame for herbivores that'll make them carnivores. We need an endgame for herbivores that'll keep them as herbivores. Having the same endgame for both factions isn't going to make people want to play herbivores more. We need something that herbivores and ONLY herbivores would be able to reach.

No two factions should have the same general playstyle, or the same endgame. Otherwise, we don't even have herbivore faction, we just have carnivores 2.0, and nobody wants that.

Herbivores shouldn't play like carnivores. Carnivores shouldn't play like herbivores.
Omnivores shouldn't play like either.
Mercenaries shouldn't play like Tribals.
Tribals shouldn't play like Mercenaries.

So strive for that. Strive for diversity. Strive for having a goal that only one faction can reach. That's how you raise a faction's popularity. Having them all do the same thing or reach for the same goal is just lazy and wouldn't even help their popularity anyway, and so you would be stuck in a continuous loop of having your preferred characters always being outclassed by others.

That's the point a lot of people bring up though. "Herbi strength bad, carni strength good." Not that it was the core of the argument.

Everyone seems to assume it would just be a copy paste of type-H Trex just on four legs with horns. If the devs are worth their salt they should be able to come up with a unique way to give herbivores a stage that is equally as end game and interesting as carnivore strains. Don't want meat eating? Maybe a strain herbi eats so many plants they litterally cause a famine. Or bring on so much rain that while plant growth goes up the world starts to flood. They'd change the environment and gameplay of the map. In a way that isn't just mindless meat eating killing machine that makes everyone hide or log. And that's just off the top of my head. There are many options for a 'strain' it's not just type-h after all.

[Pablo Croft]

Goals like what path of titans is doing, Ninja?

I also agree 100% that no faction should play the same. If they did it would get boring, and people would burn out much faster -despite developer efforts lol.

I like your creative thinking with strains, Raina. :)

lol, Mad you have a valid point. Joking aside, it would help to erode herbivore game play further.

[Sable]

It's an invalid point and should be treated as such. I, as a carnivore main, still like dabbling in herbivore ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ now and again. Hell, I've played almost nothing but herbivores the past month and half.

Generally, people assume a Strain Triceratops would be a four-legged Rex because that's literally what they ask for.

"Why can't I have a Hyper-Trike?? :("

They don't realize what the Type-H Strain actually is. Now, if they were to say something like what you did

"I want a stage that makes herbivores strong and cool as ♥♥♥♥"

Then they would be proposing something that's actually sensible AND unique, something interesting that's not a copy-paste.


Chip,

Something like what PoT is doing, yes. Affinity mini-quests. Gamers live for that ♥♥♥♥. Just look at Skyrim, Red Dead 2, or Fallout. The actual storylines don't take that long to complete. But what has players piling on the hours into those games is the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ side quests. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like "find all 100 rainbow chickens" and they'll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ do it.

Gamers like having a goal. They like having something to do, even if its totally dumb and has nothing to do with their primary mission in the game.

[MultiDavid]

So the affinity system ?

It may help, but I doubt it would suddenly make herbivore fun to play on it's own.

[bigmoe808]

Originally posted by Ninja_.Weasel:

So there is no way to balance against Strains. All you would get with a Type-H Triceratops is a Type-H Rex that looks like a Triceratops. That's it. Both would be killing and eating EVERYTHING.

You're not going to get a Strain herbivore. You're going to get another Strain carnivore that looks like an herbivore. It wouldn't defend the herbivores, it wouldn't be their guardian. It'd be just another monster that's killing all of them.

Can't say I'm not okay with that. I mean, I know-7 thousand dollars for a remodeled rex-but seeing as strains are just god tier heralds of the apocalypse unshackling fenrir from his chain while tooting gabriel's horn, what's wrong with doing it in a different body.

Functionally, the H Rex is the same as the H Carno. Only three dinos can out speed it, and everything except pue can reasonably kill it. Just enlargen the triceratops, make it look wicked, and have it barrel through scores of dinos. Not to 'save the herbivores' but genuinely just murder everything in the vicinity. Like other strains, there's no reason other than to have a horrifying monster wreak absolute ♥♥♥♥.

Matter of fact, just make it the isle's version of blood bath diablos from monster hunter. Give it a few x factors like:

1. A rapid beating heart that does dmg when the animal is walking, trotting, and/or swimming, thus, it can only be tempered by constantly charging.
   
   
2. An overheating body that is cooled by the blood of its enemies.
   
   
3. Constantly growing jagged horns that can impale and carry gutted animals corpse, but weigh it down over time. Forcing it to lose stamina faster and get closer to dieing of a heart attack.

If the issue is a lack of cool features, I can think of more. I don't want to make a herbivore guardian, strains are their own faction.