Unwinnable Situations! Do They exist? The developer certainly says NO! But I think otherwise...

[Cat]

SheridanR, one of this game's developers, claims " there are no sections that introduce unfair RNG" and "RNG has nothing to do with surviving any encounter". I, however, beg to disagree. Since Sheridan can't actually explain a way to survive some encounter's I've personally experienced, lets list a few off! See if the community can't help him out a little and prove me wrong. Please, keep in mind that Sheridan himself frequently requested that I make this thread, so please, go all-out!

Encounter 1:
Entering the Gnomish Maze, in the spawn room with four doors and the two fountains, I immediately went and activated a fountain. Don't remember what happened, but it was nothing negative. In the two seconds it took for me to enter the level, I was struck from behind with a magic attack. I turned around, and coming from two of the doors were one gnome mage each. I was struck again from behind with magic as a third gnome mage came out of the door between the fountains. I immediately ran to the fourth door, and a gnome miner came out. I killed it in one shot, but that momentary pause resulted in my death as three-six magic attacks struck me from behind in that single second. How was I supposed to survive this? I killed every enemy and gathered every item in every level before this point, and didn't have the stats or the items to win or get away.

Encounter 2:
I think it was floor 2, though it might have been floor 1 or 3. I was an Arcanist. I stepped out of the spawn room and had my shield immediatly broken by a skeleton. Killed the skeleton just fine, but a troll was walking my way, and some other mob was right beside it. There were two seperate paths I could have taken, but both were just narrow corridors. I ran into one, and was immediately stopped by another skeleton. The troll was already too close to the corridor entrance to leave, and at that exact moment, a boulder trap activated and I went squish. Were my poor skills to blame, or was that just bad luck?

Encounter 3:
Was either floor 1 or floor 2, can't remember, but I spawned in, opened the door, and had two of those mini-boss skeletons come charging at me (The ones that drop the legendary axe) shouldered by a third, normal skele. There was nowhere to run whatsoever, so I fought! Managed to kill the normal skele and almost kill one of the boss-skeles when my shield broke! Of course I died, I don't have the stats to survive those attacks. Now, where could my performance have improved to allow me to kill them or get away? Training them around the spawn room doesn't work (Try it with a skele of your own! Even if you have the tightest turns, you'll still be taking a blow or two when you first disengage and when you circle back around, and if you've fought those bloody-axes, you know they will decimate you in just two or three attacks)

[Pantaloonz]

Barony is a procedurally generated Roguelike RPG. If you expect there to never be in an unwinable situation by dumb luck, you are being unreasonable. The potential for anihialation around every corner, is part of what makes this game exciting. Sometimes secret levels are inaccessible because you dont have the tools to get to them. Sometimes you get ambushed by a patrolling skeleton from behind. That's life in the dungeon, and I for one dont think it should change. Dont like it? Turn traps off. Clear areas before you put yourself down a narrow passage. As much as you might think your deaths were not preventalbe in the situations you cite here, from what you describe it sounds like they were (maybe 2 wasnt). You just need to learn how to avoid them.

Encounter 1: You hung out in the spawn of the Gnome mines too long, you need to get out of that room right away.

Encounter 2: You were an arcanist, you couldnt spam forcebolt or ranged attacks to kill the skelly, then run past the troll?

Encounter 3: Kite then away from door, then run away into darkness to lose them. If the situation is'nt in your favor try not to fight it.

Dont get frustrated, this is a roguelike game, death is a part of the experiance.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Pantaloonz:

Barony is a procedurally generated Roguelike RPG. If you expect there to never be in an unwinable situation by dumb luck, you are being unreasonable. The potential for anihialation around every corner, is part of what makes this game exciting. Sometimes secret levels are inaccessible because you dont have the tools to get to them. Sometimes you get ambushed by a patrolling skeleton from behind. That's life in the dungeon, and I for one dont think it should change. Dont like it? Turn traps off. Clear areas before you put yourself down a narrow passage. As much as you might think your deaths were not preventalbe in the situations you cite here, from what you describe it sounds like they were (maybe 2 wasnt). You just need to learn how to avoid them.

Encounter 1: You hung out in the spawn of the Gnome mines too long, you need to get out of that room right away.

Encounter 2: You were an arcanist, you couldnt spam forcebolt or ranged attacks to kill the skelly, then run past the troll?

Encounter 3: Kite then away from door, then run away into darkness to lose them. If the situation is'nt in your favor try not to fight it.

Dont get frustrated, this is a roguelike game, death is a part of the experiance.

Encounter 1: The start of the level to my death was 8 seconds total. All four exits were blocked within the first 4 seconds. It would be a roll of the dice to have gone to an exit that I could escape out of before the other three Gnomes arrived, because the first gnome came in 1 second from the start. And even 1 gnome could kill you in 3 seconds or less, even from full HP, if it decides to attack twice every second. Assuming I had taken the optimal route, and gone into the door between the two fountains (The closest door), I would still have a gnome directly behind me and directly in front of me. The gnome directly in front of me would hav etime to attack me once, assuming I got a one-shot on it (Which is unlikely, it usually takes me three attacks to kill one), and the gnome behind me would have time for at LEAST three attacks. Once walking to the door, once while killing the second Gnome, and once while passing through the door. That is assuming it doesn't do the quick attacks, which would let it hit me up to 6 times. And it only took 4 bolts of magic to make me dead.

Encounter 2. Nope! They were too close. It would have taken two or three castings to kill the skele, and the troll would be all over me in that time.

Encounter 3: I might have to concede on this one, but Try it yourself. Get two or three skele's to the spawn room in the mine, make sure they're all clustered around the door. Then practice getting out of the room without getting hit. It IS possible, don't get me wrong, but it's entirely dependent on when the skele's decide to attack. There turns are too tight and the AI path too loose, it is entirely dependant on RNG. And, a great number of the times, you will have two of the skeletons chasing you, while the third remains blocking the doorway, or starts walking just outside of it. Enough you can't get past without fighting or getting hit by it.



There are many, MANY times i could have listed off that involve me dying to some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that only someone with amazing reflexes and skills could pull off, but I'm not complaining about those deaths, because they are fair. I wasn't good enough to survive in those situations. That's not what this thread is about.



I made this thread because I pointed out there were times where you could die through no chance or choice of your own, where it was soley dependant on RNG/Bad Luck. And instead of trying to discuss, instead of trying to explain why or how I was wrong, the Dev decided to be an arrogant child, continue to insist he was right and anything to the contrary was just wrong, belittle and outright insult me for daring to disagree, and dishonestly ignored or deflected my requests for clarification.

He was VERY insistent that RNG never plays a factor into your survival, and even told me to go onto the forums if I wanted more. So here I am, rising up to the childishness of his responses, just waiting for someone to prove me wrong. I do appreciate your effort, Pantalooz, I'll try and g et better at Kiting and see if that's actually possible. But you also just re-affirmed my point: Dumb Luck is a factor, frequent or infrequently, into your deaths, in ways you just don't get the chance to have your own input

[mistersneak]

Hi Xiva, sorry it sounds like this is a frustrating topic.
I will acknowledge that RNG is often a factor in the difficulty of the game. For example, how many meat the rats drop in the early game can have a significant impact on the rest of the playthrough, and this is influenced by RNG. But what seems to be a better representation is that RNG can control how you have to react in order to survive. I can't agree that unmitigable RNG makes deaths unavoidable, really ever, much as I'd guess Sheridan has described to you. Because RNG on its own is never solely responsible for how and why you ended up in the situations you end up in.

I must say that the situations you describe sound like they could have been avoided. What you describe in the Gnomish Mines I'm sure is a reflection of your perception, but it being the result of RNG is factually inaccurate. That level in particular has content that is not randomized for its layout and enemy counts, so the distance between the doorway with the fountains and the nearest gnome is certainly escapable. So of all the possible examples, this would be the least impacted by RNG. It is possible that the gnomes may path in a way that makes them hard to avoid, but you still have a number of possible choices here that could determine your survival.
Most people die in this level because they don't know what to expect, and the fact that it's a deadly surprise with no explicit warning is perhaps a fair criticism, outside of anything about RNG.

As for the rest of your situations, I'll just say that I have successfully dodged enemies by closing the starting room door, taking down the torches, and weaseling my way around them before. It's not always easy, and sometimes I fail. But I wouldn't personally blame RNG for my failures to execute there.

Games with RNG like Barony are usually about adaptability, and being able to face tough surprises with on-the-fly problem-solving. Even if a situation seems on its own to be unwinnable, it's likely that a series of your choices up to that point led to that situation, and that death doesn't exist in a vacuum. I understand at this time it may be hard to see where you could've done better. All I can say is that the more you play, the more tools you realize you have in order to mitigate the surprises the game throws at you - and what kinds of choices you can make to prevent yourself from getting stuck in a tougher spot than you can handle. Some classes are better equipped to deal with certain surprises you might have a tougher time with in your preferred playstyle, so maybe there's some options for you there.

Anyway, given the tone of your messages so far, I expect that this message will only add fuel to the fire. I don't know how I can exactly "prove" that RNG isn't 100% to blame for your deaths. But I do hope that you can stick with it and try some strategies that will help you survive similar siatuations in the future.

[Cat]

Originally posted by mistersneak:

Anyway, given the tone of your messages so far, I expect that this message will only add fuel to the fire. I don't know how I can exactly "prove" that RNG isn't 100% to blame for your deaths. But I do hope that you can stick with it and try some strategies that will help you survive similar siatuations in the future.

On the contrary, I actually find your post to be a refreshing change to what I've gotten so far. I have to admit, you're friends behavior ignored me, quite a deal. And this post is more to It's never a good sign when a developer stoops to insulting their customers, especially when that customer isn't doing anything worse than disagreeing with them, and demanding a direct response to back up their claims. He was just incredibly hostile from the start. I'm not sure if you read my review which started all of this, but at one point I said I would be willing to change my review from a positive or a negative if he would just explain why my reasons for a negative review were wrong. Instead of even trying to address my concerns, he said I was bargaining for reviews and dismissed everything I had to say.
Now, I am probably spending too much time focusing on Sheridan's behavior, but I actually enjoyed barony enough I'd rather see it grow than fall. And when you have a dev acting like that, you could be making one of the best games out there, but you would be turning off a not-insignifcant number of people who just wouldn't want to do business with that kind of personality. I'm a completele ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, and I was acting more professionally than he was. Still am, all things considered. Being a huge manchild, but hey.

I still disagree about the gnomes, I am not exaggerating in any way when I say I was dead within 8 seconds of entering the level. I was surrounded by gnomes before I could even read the flavor text from the fountain. There were plenty of items or abilities that could or would have let me survive, but I didn't have any of those. I have gone back to the gnomish mines and timed everything out. Survival was a literally impossibility, just given the raw numbers of things, even if literally every variable were optimally aligned (exception is damage. I don't know how the damage is calculated, so I suppose there were cases where it wouldn't have been lethal if every magic attack did the minimal amount).

Encounter 3, I concede. Completely. If you can take down the torches and stall them out long enough, you can totally survive.

But Encounter 2, that's not on me, it's on bad-luck. Yes, I had other options, but I also only had a brief window of opportunity. I took the course of action that would have optimal survival rates. I had no way of knowing I would get stuck beneath a trap by a skeleton. If you can see room for improvement there, please, explain.

[G-Swaggles]

just git gud

[Wolfman Dave]

Also in the Gnomish maze, in the treasure room with the spell-shooting faces on the walls? The fire spells at intervals, and one of those spells is "sleep". If you find a human companion they can actually block a spell once inside the door and it's fairly easy to find cover in the room while you try to get at the pedistal in the center. I even had a spell reflecting amulet, so the one time I did get hit it bounced off. Of course, when I was deeper into the room I saw that there was a pillar with something behind it, and like an idiot I went around to see. It was a lever, but pulling it didn't seem to do anything that I could see. Trying to get back to the door I was pummelled by spells, and my spell-reflecting amulet gave up the ghost. Now I was getting repeatedly pelted with Sleep and couldn't wake up since the interval at which the walls fire is faster than your revival from Sleep. That unwinnable scenario may be a bug rather than a feature since it's supposed to be a challenging area, but it sure was frustrating after I'd plumbed the whole maze.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Wolfman Dave:

Also in the Gnomish maze, in the treasure room with the spell-shooting faces on the walls? The fire spells at intervals, and one of those spells is "sleep". If you find a human companion they can actually block a spell once inside the door and it's fairly easy to find cover in the room while you try to get at the pedistal in the center. I even had a spell reflecting amulet, so the one time I did get hit it bounced off. Of course, when I was deeper into the room I saw that there was a pillar with something behind it, and like an idiot I went around to see. It was a lever, but pulling it didn't seem to do anything that I could see. Trying to get back to the door I was pummelled by spells, and my spell-reflecting amulet gave up the ghost. Now I was getting repeatedly pelted with Sleep and couldn't wake up since the interval at which the walls fire is faster than your revival from Sleep. That unwinnable scenario may be a bug rather than a feature since it's supposed to be a challenging area, but it sure was frustrating after I'd plumbed the whole maze.

The easiest way to deal with the spell-room is to just use a pickaxe to break down a wall, take out the spell blocks, and pick up the helm. You can even use the room to recover your health and magic, if you hide behind the spells, since they'll take out the mobs

[Arlyeon [Crit Hit]]

I mean some factors exist here @Xiva. If you're playing with Starvation intact- you're not going to have as much time to feasibly farm up levels- (Even with minotaurs, combinations of sleep/slows can help immensely in buying time to grind) - and the warning of whether it will spawn or not helps.

Without starvation, you can -very- easily grind levels via lightspell spam (I'm pretty sure I was the inspiration for the strobe achievement :P).

As for the gnome maze itself- the gnomes do considerable damage, but don't have much health, so as long as you have decent health walking in- you can just beeline down a door, murder one- and hope it's one of the casters. Once you've killed one caster gnome- you've basically won- since the rods of lightning they're wielding will -annihilate- everything else on that floor. The Gnomish maze is an absolutely phenomenal way to stock up on lightning wands, Treasure, Pickaxes, and levels. And is a consistent stop during my run throughs of the game. Just don't bother stopping/dealing with the main room until after you've whittled down the floors population.

[G O G G L E S]

They're only unwinnable if you come unprepared. Try again mate, every time you fail, try something different. Like running out of the spawn point asap before you get swarmed, if that is going to be the case.

IMO the game is 👌 as it is. It works like the old roguelikes except in real-time.

[(_H.G.D._) BubbyBobble]

Originally posted by ＧＯＧＧＬＥＳ:

Like running out of the spawn point asap before you get swarmed, if that is going to be the case.

Agreed 100%!

This technique is best in the Gnomish Mines, where you'll get your arse handed to you if you just stand around. Especially since it's an early area, the enemies are hella strong, and offensive/defensive equipment almost always starts out in very short supply.

But keep a careful ear out for boulders! They can be right outside of your spawn area, and trigger as soon as you walk towards the door. Just listen for the noise, take note of your surroundings, and evade accordingly.


Best of luck to you all!

[Cat]

Originally posted by ＧＯＧＧＬＥＳ:

They're only unwinnable if you come unprepared. Try again mate, every time you fail, try something different. Like running out of the spawn point asap before you get swarmed, if that is going to be the case.

IMO the game is 👌 as it is. It works like the old roguelikes except in real-time.

I mean, you're not wrong, but when it's a dice-roll to have the exit door NOT blocked off, and having it blocked means certain death, no amount of preperation is going to save you. Unless you got lucky with an early-game magic reflection item.

[Schrödinger's Dinger]

A trick for the gnome mines is either having high stealth or a scroll of teleport.

If you go with high stealth just grab the torches in the room and try to stealth kill a mage as best you can, This really really doesnt work in hardcore but does in normal mode.

Scroll of teleport is pure Rng.

I agree that ALOT of things are Rng when they shouldnt, The chance of the extra rooms spawning/Chance that the extra rooms are not a option, due to the level generation making the levers on the Gnome mine/Minetown unreachable or just having them never spawn, For no reason.

And no one can argue that a game like this cant be lost by nothing but Rng.

By all Rng standards you could get NOTHING from the rats the whole mines which means no food And no food spawned either and die from hunger, Now this hasnt happened to me but i have had only 1 meat and no cheese from the rats before which is damn close.

I play with hunger off for that reason.

Just to further the point, If the exit spawns in a narrow hallway and a boulder trap ends up locking the hallway to the exit, If there is no other path and you dont have a dig spell/pickaxe, The hell do you do? I rarely get a pickaxe before floor 4-5ish dig spell is random when i get one, So there is room for my run to be ended since i cant move or destory this boulder.

[Royal]

didn't you ♥♥♥♥♥ about this on your review?

[Cat]

Originally posted by Nanaki:

didn't you ♥♥♥♥♥ about this on your review?

Yeah, but Sheridan, the game's dev, decided to start insulting his fanbase for daring to disagree with him, so I decided to prove him objectively wrong.

Didn't think about a boulder trap blocking the exit ;3 That's pretty unwinnable, right there!

[cron]

so you just want someone to say you're right?