Sleep traps in later levels are example of bad game design

[koitsu]

The sleep trap that spews forth from the wall in 4 directions in later levels (ex. level 18) is literally a game-breaking mechanic. I've played Nethack for over 25 years so when it comes to roguelikes it's kind of obvious when something like "bad game design" comes up.

* It's impossible to get away from the trap if you're hit by it and are physically close to the trap.
* You cannot use a scroll of Teleportation if the above is in effect; there's no "window of opportunity" to read the scroll, even if you put it in the hotbar and hold down the associated key.
* Magic Resistance rings do nothing against this trap (see Barony wiki for claims that this ring stops sleep).

I have video proof of all of this if requested, just ask. I can file a bug report if devs would feel it's applicable.

In general, I would suggest removing the sleep spell trap (at least in the form of a repeated sleep-spewing trap), or replace the sleep spell with something else.

[Losername]

Not game breaking as it's always avoidable. Also not a bug -- their status as a near-instant-death-trap is intentional. If you've played Nethack for 25 years you'd know better than anyone that they're much crueler[www.steelypips.org] about instant death traps than we are. Sorry you died late in the game like that, though. :(

[koitsu]

Dang it, I had a huge response typed up, but then I did something in Steam and lost it all. Argh!

I guess we disagree on this then, and that's OK. I will take issue with your Nethack insta-death comparisons though: those all kill you (i.e. the game ends immediately), while Barony's sleep trap described above leads the player to believe because it didn't kill you (or eventually "time out") that there's a way to recover, yet there isn't. I feel that's bad design. It sounds extreme, I know, but I'd be a lot happier if the trap just instantly killed you!

To be fair, there are things like this in Nethack -- situations the player gets him/herself into that cannot be recovered from -- but they're all because the player is missing item(s) that would permit them to continue. An example would be drinking a potion of levitation to cross the sea in Medusa's level, only to have the potion expire when you're on a tiny island and have no items that levitate or water-walk or teleport -- you're going to die, so abrupt quit/exit is the only option. But those are situations where (back in the day) you ask a more senior player, or you really think hard about it: "dang it, okay in the future only rings or water-walking boots. No potions!". Meaning: you learn what to do different. In Barony with that trap, it's pretty much nothing more than: "never get hit by these traps. Ever."

That said: the wiki said the magic resistance ring is supposed to inhibit sleep effects. Is this not the case, or are the traps truly special (i.e. bypass ring intrinsics)? Answer might need to be in a spoiler tag. Because unless otherwise stated, to me the ring should inhibit the sleep trap's effect.

This isn't a game review post, but Barony overall is a really wonderful game. I like to describe it to people as "a 3D and real-time version of a simplified version of Nethack, but with multiplayer, and insanely fun." Easily 8/10. I'd donate some money to you guys if there was a way.

P.S. -- I beat Barony this morning for the first time (minotaurs + hunger disabled, just to make the learning experience of the game a bit easier). It was the 2nd time I'd encountered the Baron. My feelings on the battle: Baron himself is actually not too bad though mid-way or 2/3rds through the fight when he switched AI models (attack/movement pattern) that caught me off guard! :-). The real struggle isn't even with the Baron, it's with the realities of the game (i.e. ranged weapons breaking due to excessive use, running out of MP, not moving fast enough, not having enough healing potions (ring of regeneration in the last half of the battle = wonderful)). THAT feels *so* much like Nethack, and it makes me SUPER happy. :D

P.P.S. -- During that battle, I managed to find a way to get the Baron to face a wall and literally do nothing (no movement, no attack, nada). I was able to just repeatedly hit him over and over from a distance without any repercussions -- as long as I didn't move. If I moved, he came out of the state. I made a short video of it if you're interested. Almost seems like an AI or pathing issue, but hard for me to diagnose, obviously.

Edit: minor punctuation and grammatical clean-up, and re-added my concern about the magic resistance ring.

[Arlyeon [Crit Hit]]

I mean. my main issue with the sleep traps is if you kill everything else on the stage, and get chained between several, it's just tedious waiting to finally wake up, inch forward, get re sleeped, rinse repeat. I feel like a 'Sleep tolerance' should build up over time. 'Well-rested Status'. I dunno.


Otherwise, I'm totally fine with traps- I mean, the boulders are more death-y than the sleep traps, so, Meh. :P I'm chill with it. And Casting sleep on NPCS and friends is hilarious.

[LordBlade]

I very much agree with a building resistance. The more an effect hits you, the more resistant you become to it (until eventually immune). And the resistance starts to drop once you're no longer being hit by it (so you can't just gain immunity by cheesing a trap for the rest of the game).

[mistersneak]

Hey guys, I think discussion of this topic is fine, but this is a 2.5 year old thread and a lot about the game has changed since then and - to a degree - how we approach this kind of feedback as a developer. @LordBlade there's nothing wrong with what you said, and thank you for reminding us of this which may be an old sore-spot for some players! But I'd like to lock this thread and I welcome you to post in the pinned feedback thread, or start a new discussion based on the current state of the game.